"Mayor Ford also says the market can't be forever supported by city tax dollars, and at some point if the market continues to struggle, it needs to be turned over to private hands."
Perhaps the mayor is beginning to understand that government subsidized business is just a crock of shit. The best thing a city can do to encourage business is to just provide fertile ground for it. The city can do that by offering good police and fire protection and making sure a small businessman can get a building permit. Sucking the blood out of middle class taxpayers and small business to feed a large business is counter productive.
posted by mike2004 at 07:11 A.M. EST on Wed Feb 16, 2005 #
What gets me is the idea of locating all the tax funded projects in an area where no one lives!
Put something downtown and get gouged for parking. I saw it with the Mud Hens stadium. Those parking lots went from 75 cents a day to over $10 for the evening on a game day. Navigating the pothole laden streets, the numerous streetlights, and the piece of crap beaters that can't stay in one lane just to get to something you could find out in the suburbs where the parking is free and expect people to come just boggles my mind.
posted by Guest at 10:15 P.M. EST on Wed Feb 16, 2005 #
No one lives downtown? From the "Official Site of the City of Toledo":
"Downtown Toledo has recently experienced significant housing development. Over 700 housing units have been created in numerous projects including the Commodore Perry (156), Hillcrest Apartments (106), LaSalle’s Apartments (131), Museum Place (65), and the Riverfront Apartments (113), with many more condominium and rental projects, such as 110 Ottawa (22) RiverWest (40) and St. Clair Village (11) in the construction or planning phases."
So let me get this straight, you want the city of Toledo to put all the city tax funded projects that will attract people and revenue... in the suburbs? That's ridiculous.
All we've heard for the past 15 years is that downtown Toledo was crumbling and there was no reason for people to go there anymore. Now the city is changing the area for the better and you think that's a bad thing? The county builds one of the best ballparks in all of minor league baseball downtown and you're against it because you have to pay to park close? (There's plenty of free parking if you're willing to walk a few blocks)
Are you serious?
-Dan
posted by photodan at 12:30 A.M. EST on Thu Feb 17, 2005 #
I would have to ask Photodan if you are one of the middle class taxpayers or small businessmen located in the Toledo city limits who is getting gouged through taxes and user fees, to pay for it all?
posted by mike2004 at 02:24 A.M. EST on Thu Feb 17, 2005 #
Firstly, a marketplace hardly needs government subsidy at all. That fact alone demonstrates how inept and foolish are Toledo's politicians and voters. If you have to pay merchants to be there, it's not a market ... it's a welfare program.
Mike2004 said it shortly and sweetly enough to provide a good summation of Toledo's "economic development" problems. The government should only function to keep the roads paved, the water running, the cops and firemen responding, and the bureaucracy understandable to the common man. But Toledo's city government is an engorged mass of salary-collectors, and that's just a disgusting and veiny cancer upon the body politic. Too bad Toledo's voters are so stupid that they don't even understand the foul doom that's being setup for them in the next generation.
Where Mike errs is in his taking of a moderate line. "Counter productive"? No, Mike, it is actually utterly lethal to this small piece of what's supposed to be a Constitutional Republic. Toledo's schools started their degradation with lockdowns. They are moving onward with uniforms. I predict they will move further with RFID student trackers. And Toledo's schools will simply be her prisons. Prison is the only society possible under the rising Fascism of this decaying area. Government and corporations will merge, and by using the fears and hatreds inside a standard-formula of violent nationalism, some real bad times will arrive in the area. Summary denial of civil rights is really not that far away now.
And as for Photodan:
Dan, if you have been as ardent a follower of downtown-Toledo news as I have over the last 7 years, you'd well know those downtown living spaces exist on borrowed something ... borrowed money, time, or more likely a combination of the two. I recall that the Hillcrest apartments were planned on fetching at least $650/mo, but the news has carried developer complaints that they simply cannot get more than $450/mo for these sort of units. Dan, getting 450 of 650 is one hell of an adjustment to make on your balance sheet. I'd say it's a fatal adjustment for SOMEBODY.
Downtown living is highly unstable. It exists in a state of high subsidy. No one can drum all this up as "economic development" without running headfirst into the Wall of Sane Analysis. Shiny new buildings don't matter a hill of beans if the debt load that created them is crushing. And Toledo is most assuredly being crushed. We cannot continue exchanging 1 factory for 1 retail store and expect the economy to NOT collapse. Sustainable wealth is created ONLY by a manufacturing base that creates capital equipment (i.e. stuff that you can either make other stuff with, or you can make a living with). We cannot survive by making webpages, running strip malls, and issuing junk bonds to each other.
Downtown living is still in an investment bubble. Like all bubbles, it MUST collapse. Personally, I don't plan on being here when Toledo's next phase of ghost buildings occurs. The Detroit example of economic implosion is terrifying to a prosperity-freak like myself.
posted by Guest at 02:38 A.M. EST on Thu Feb 17, 2005 #
I'm not sure what sent either of you on a tangent regarding my comment.
A previous poster asserted that no one lives (present tense) downtown. That was false, and I gave evidence to that fact. I made no long term predictions of success or evaluations of how housing developed there. Whether I agree with your assessment or not is another topic.
Mike, no the phrase, "middle class taxpayer or small businessman located in the Toledo city limits who is getting gouged through taxes and user fees" does not accurately describe me.
I did notice that neither of you disagreed that the city of Toledo should not spend tax money to improve other cities. I appreciate your support of my extreme concept.
-Dan
posted by photodan at 11:22 A.M. EST on Thu Feb 17, 2005 #
Downtown living population....
Here, from an earlier post on sex offenders, is a map showing the 1000' buffers around Toledo's schools. Also, it has population stats from the 2000 census.
I must say that, when compared to the rest of the city (and I mean just inside Toledo's city limits), there aren't a whole lot of people living there. Other neighborhoods in town have many times over the population of the downtown. And, if you figure in their 3/4% income tax and all the other taxes the city collects, they are paying a lot for the city to turn around and choose the downtown as the site location over and over again while places like Westgate (which has lost FoodTown, Dillards, and Thackerays soon), Southwyck (which is almost dead, having lost most its stores), and NorthTowne (which is dead) are ignored. As for parking, I don't remember having to pay for parking when I go to Westgate, Southwyck, or when I last went to NorthTowne. Wouldn't these places make good (or even better) site locations for a city-assisted market?
Not that I'm saying the city should be in the business of subsidizing marketplaces...
posted by timault at 01:00 P.M. EST on Thu Feb 17, 2005 #
So let me get this straight, you want the city of Toledo to put all the city tax funded projects that will attract people and revenue... in the suburbs? That's ridiculous.
No, Dan, what I am actually suggesting is that the city gets out of the economic development business all together. Every project the city has ever attempted has had a negative return for the taxpayers. If the city would get out of the economic development business, it would be able to use the saved funds to hire additional police offices, to keep the streets safe; take better care of the city’s infrastructure; or maybe even cut taxes.
posted by mike2004 at 07:38 A.M. EST on Fri Feb 18, 2005 #
Mike, you are on target. But dissimilarly to your suggestion, I DEMAND that the city get out of the "economic development business". I DEMAND that the city stop shouldering crushing debts for wiseguys who skip town when the deals go just a little bit sour.
Of course, I can demand all I like, but the body politic votes so inanely that I really wonder how much more we sensible people must endure further.
posted by GuestZero at 03:25 P.M. EST on Sun Feb 20, 2005 #
How 'bout this "radical" concept: The city should keep it's paws and our tax dollars out of ANY sort of business venture. I'm not sure what's more wasteful....... this folly or the marina district debacle.
See, the concept is very simple..... if there is a demand for something, a private group or citizen will venture to fill that demand. Hopefully, more than one entity, as competition increases efficiency, which, in turn, keeps consumer cost in check. Conversely, this city - or any governing agency - is the epitome of INEFFICIENCY.
While Supply/Demand is the WHY? - why did a business open?, Efficient/Inefficient operation is the CAN? - can a business make money and survive? Both determine the future of an entrepeneurial effort ... and why some businesses are successful, while others fail.
It certainly appears that the "Market" has neither SUFFICIENT demand, nor EFFICIENT operations. The city, if it were a private venture in charge of the market, would have closed shop long ago. But, since they have an unlimited supply of revenue - our tax dollars - the market has remained open, all the while with ever-rising costs.... yet another example of the incompetence of Toledo's officials/government.
posted by TolremApan at 07:05 A.M. EST on Fri Feb 25, 2005 #
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