Does this suprise anyone?
With all the elction problems we've had recently and the polarization of this country, people are always looking to their firends for an edge.
Every year people complain and they give us a new "security" measure on these electronic machines.
The thing is a receipt might say you voted for Kevin but record it as a vote for Greg - how would you know.
Seriously, I like the Iraqi method, paper ballots and some permanent purple ink.
posted by rusty at 07:28 P.M. EST on Fri Dec 16, 2005 #
No, I am NOT surprised at all by this news...
posted by MARIELORA at 07:44 P.M. EST on Fri Dec 16, 2005 #
So many other foreign nations get by with "X the box" on a paper ballot... it works so well in the third world... even where you have to print the person's name, picture, party affiliation, and party's logo on the ballot.
I can't find a really good large example, but see
http://www.nelsonmandelagiftshop.com/ballotmandela2.htm
This meets every ADA/access requirement except for blind and physically disabled people. And my understanding of law is that you can have someone fill the ballots out for you.
You *can* optical-scan a ballot like that.
My feeling is that you run the optical scan after the polls close to get the immediate tally, then you count the paper ballots. If the difference between the electronic count and the by-hand paper count is greater than 1/2 of 1 percent, a full open-to-the-public paper recount by shouuld be initiated... meaning that any member of the public shall be permitted to sit in and watch the count themselves.
Unfortunately, you probably missed the Ohio Legislature totally screw the voters of Ohio. We are being forced to provide ID/proof of residency in order to vote.
http://www.alternet.org/rights/29292/
posted by anonymouscoward at 08:14 P.M. EST on Fri Dec 16, 2005 #
AC,
I was with you until we got to this part:
Unfortunately, you probably missed the Ohio Legislature totally screw the voters of Ohio. We are being forced to provide ID/proof of residency in order to vote.
How is proof of citizenship a burden? Do you really want citizens of the surrounding states and nations coming here to influence your vote?
Elderly and unemployed folks have significant ties to the state by way of Medicare and the unemployment system itself. If you are counted among the unemployed ranks, or among those receiving medicare, then you have already demonstrated citizenship to those respective organizations, and it will be no greater burden to present evidence of citizenship once again.
I don't have an answer for the homeless if they have been homeless since birth. Otherwise, those individuals are capable of demonstrating citizenship. It will simply require a bit more thought in advance of the election in question.
By the way, what is an 'ex-felon'?
posted by AirTrainer at 10:31 P.M. EST on Fri Dec 16, 2005 #
How is proof of citizenship a burden? Do you really want citizens of the surrounding states and nations coming here to influence your vote?
Yeah, I'm SO sure people just flood in from Michigan and Canada to vote in Ohio. Can you get any further out with your arguments?
I recall having to prove I am who I say I am in order to get a voter registration card. Why should I have to show someone my driver's license or other ID on Election Day in order to get a ballot?
By the way, citizen, can I see your papers to prove you are actually a citizen of the area and thereby authorized to post here? I mean, you could be Karl Rove posting from the White House, trying to influence the vote in Ohio. It shouldn't be any burden for you to scan in your driver's license and birth certificate and post them here.
Come on, don't be a wuss, surely you have nothing to hide and can lead by example.
posted by anonymouscoward at 10:59 P.M. EST on Fri Dec 16, 2005 #
Several points...any election system can have potential vulnerability in any one aspect of the system. This doesn't mean that the SYSTEM - taken as a whole - is a bad system. There's a reason why there are checks and balances built into the system.
Let's look at Lucas County...you can walk into a polling location, give and name and sign a book. YOU'RE supposed to tell the poll worker your address, according to Ohio law, but usually, the poll worker will say "are you still at...?" Your signature, however, is almost unreadable - BECAUSE YOU'RE HAND IS IN A SLING...or pick any other physical restriction which can be easily faked. You then vote.
Later, you come in and try to vote again - no sling. The poll workers think you look familiar and ask if you haven't already been in. You OFFER your id to show who you are and that you haven't voted previously. They let you vote, EXCEPT THAT THIS TIME, YOU'RE VOTING AS YOURSELF...IT WAS THE EARLIER VOTE WHERE YOU VOTED AS SOMEONE ELSE.
This is one example of how it can be done.
As for the system as a whole, if you can program a machine to accept a vote for Mickey Mouse, but record a vote Donald Duck, you'd also be savvy enough to program a printer to print Mickey Mouse so that any VVPAT would show you what you expected to see. People who make the argument that machines can be tampered with so they need a VVPAT conveniently overlook this point.
How you store the machines, how the machines are set up (not connected to each other or to any common server), how the people monitor the presence of others when near the machines, how both a Republican and Democrat are always together to do anything on the machines or with the ballots both at the polls and at the offices, how the counts are verified...all these work together to provide good checks and balances.
Any one of these areas are vulnerable to various "interference," however, when taken a whole, it's a pretty good system.
A/C - in Ohio, under Ohio law, you are NOT required to provide any id when getting a voter registration card...perhaps your recollection is from another state.
AND - why in the world do people accept having to show an id to cash a check, use a credit card (sometimes), get utilities, prove age for purchase of alcohol/tobacco, get into R-rated movies, fly, and still think that voting - a much more "sacred" activity - shouldn't require some form of proof of who you are!?!?
And shame on those Democrats in Columbus who think so little of their "constituents" as to believe that their supporters won't be able to vote because they don't have any identification. I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone who doesn't have some form of identification they can produce if they wanted to.
posted by intrepid at 08:11 A.M. EST on Sat Dec 17, 2005 #
My two nearest neighbors are elderly and don't drive, hence no drivers licenses. Their church bus loads them up and takes them to the polls now. I'm not sure what else the BOE will be allowed to accept in place of a drivers license but I'll bet these two wonderful old Republicans will probably not make the effort. In my precinct the gals who officiate the polls, dedicated as they are, would really struggle with various forms of ID. Frankly, they were nearly incompetant in the last election, having left the memory cards in the machines. They came back in a panic and had to get the building custodian to let them back in. It will be a mess. Voter education will be critical. Poll worker education? I can't imagine. However 22 other states currently require ID and it seems to work.
posted by holland at 01:49 P.M. EST on Sat Dec 17, 2005 #
Yeah, you can show some sort of bill... that really works for the homeless... and I bet many people can easily forge a bill with Photoshop and a nice printer.
posted by anonymouscoward at 02:18 P.M. EST on Sat Dec 17, 2005 #
Ohio has identification cards you can get if you don't have a driver's license. You can use utility bills (gas, electric, water) which show your name and current address. You can also, under the new bill pending, give the last 4 digits of your ss# and vote provisionally. If the last 4 digits match up to the ones on file at the BOE, the ballot will be counted with all the others right away.
I agree, Holland, the poll workers need more practice in conducting the elections...more training won't help unless they actually have the ability to practice what they're learning.
posted by intrepid at 03:09 P.M. EST on Sat Dec 17, 2005 #
How come the toledo papers didn't report that Deibold CEO Wally O'Dell resigned "effective immediately" this week?
What's up with that?
posted by soboredbytoledo at 06:48 P.M. EST on Sat Dec 17, 2005 #
Identification requirements aside, I'm liking this purple finger idea more and more.
posted by AirTrainer at 08:41 P.M. EST on Sat Dec 17, 2005 #
How come the toledo papers didn't report that Deibold CEO Wally O'Dell resigned "effective immediately" this week?
The Blade's not as liberal as some people think it is?
posted by anonymouscoward at 08:45 P.M. EST on Sat Dec 17, 2005 #
Identification requirements aside, I'm liking this purple finger idea more and more.
What happens if the terrorists contaminate the ink with something nasty?
(Hey, isn't DHS always warning us about some new way for the terrorists to kill us?)
(And for the Feds reading this, WHY HAVEN'T YOU CAPTURED OSAMA BIN LADEN YET, YOU FAT, UGLY, LAZY, INCOMPETENT A**HOLES? STOP READING THIS AND DEAL WITH THE BIGGER THREAT!)
posted by anonymouscoward at 08:49 P.M. EST on Sat Dec 17, 2005 #
anonymouscoward,
"(And for the Feds reading this, WHY HAVEN'T YOU CAPTURED OSAMA BIN LADEN YET, YOU FAT, UGLY, LAZY, INCOMPETENT A**HOLES? STOP READING THIS AND DEAL WITH THE BIGGER THREAT!)"
According to headquarters, they (we) weren't paying attention to you in particular, until this outburst...
"Weren't," is the correct (past) tense).
Woopsie ;-)
posted by Hooda_Thunkit at 12:34 A.M. EST on Sun Dec 18, 2005 #
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