Starling - all I can say is KUDOS to you!
I, too, am a smoker and find this whole battle absurd. And like you, my other half does not smoke. But he never gripes at me for it - although I know he wishes I would/could quit.
For the record - the Applebees on Alexis has a smoking section - in the lounge, but they have booths and tables not just high chairs and small round drink tables. Also, the Steak N Shake on Monroe St. has smoking, the Summit Diner downtown has smoking. I believe that Navy Bistro has smoking in the lounge. It beats having to go out on the sidewalk.
If I think of more spots that allow smokers like us to patronize them I'll let ya know!
posted by DoknowDocare at 09:00 P.M. EST on Wed Feb 08, 2006 #
If you feel like a burger or breakfast ,or something (although they do have meals),All the Frisch's have large smoking sections, too, Star. Same old comfortable booths they've always had. The waitress told me last week the Bennett Brothers lost so much business after Block's Ban (let's be honest) , it was either spend the money to put them in, or close the doors on every one within the city limits. Unfortunately for the one I usually go to (Heatherdowns) , the business that left never came back. Road construction started up to top it all off, and quite a few had went into Michigan, or the burbs, and found other places to go. Every time I go there, the larger section (no-smokers) has about 2-5 people (strangely, most of whom look like they weigh over 300 pounds-very healthy looking (sarcasm)), while the smaller smoking section is at least 2/3 full.
posted by Foolkiller at 10:05 P.M. EST on Wed Feb 08, 2006 #
My guess is that these non-smoking restaurants are doing just fine financially. If they were hurting that much, I'm sure they'd be more accommodating. Further, I'm sure they'd rather not hear complaints from non-smokers about being placed too close to a smoking section. Also, as you noted, smoking is a social thing, but it seems that the social thing to do anymore is to not smoke. I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm merely pointing out that it might actually be in the financial interests of restaurant owners to not allow smoking (or at least move smokers significantly far away from non-smokers). I haven't seen any stats on this issue though, and I would be interested in seeing the business effects of smoking v. non-smoking restaurants.
posted by junta330 at 10:08 P.M. EST on Wed Feb 08, 2006 #
If a privately owned business, built by someone's money other than YOURS-and not paid for/supported with YOUR tax dollars-wants to permit accomodations for smokers, that should be their right- in a truly free society. Conversely, if they don't want to-it should also be their right-WITHOUT the government getting involved. I don't believe in putting it on the ballot any more, either-because-most of the people who vote (on both sides) will NEVER frequent any of the places affected one way or the other. So therefore, it should be up to no one but the person who runs and owns the business. That includes everything from restaurants and bars to a car dealer, to a dry cleaners, an office building, etc. There ARE adequate ventilation systems available. The rabid smoker-haters throw all the smokers out on the street, take away all their smoking areas/break rooms, etc; THEN bitch about them standing outside anywhere congregating because "OOOhhhh!! I had to walk through that filthy smoke!" But-THEY WOULDN"T HAVE HAD TO...if they'd left the areas for them INSIDE...and, in the case of lounges, break areas, etc;for employees..that meant no one could see them, or smell any smoke anyway. They just knew someone, somewhere, was having a cigarette , pipe, or cigar, and they couldn't stand it. Now, they're starting the kick of OUTSIDE bans...and in many states, trying to ban it in CARS...the scumbags won't be happy as long as there's one lone smoker left anywhere on the planet.
posted by Foolkiller at 10:55 P.M. EST on Wed Feb 08, 2006 #
DoKnow-I have an apology to make. I'd always thought you were a guy. 8^)
posted by Foolkiller at 11:12 P.M. EST on Wed Feb 08, 2006 #
I agree with you Foolkiller. I'm a strict economic libertarian. I think businesses should be able to do whatever they want, and the market will determine any action they take. But the fact of the matter is the government has taken action, and we can't sit here bitching about the past. I would suggest getting your smoking buddies together and puting up candidates that are pro-smoker. After all, we live in a representative democracy and there are people out their that represent your interests. But as we all know, not everyone's opinion is the majority opinion. Indeed, the minority opinion loses out, and without a grassroots campaign to support it, it will hardly gain any ground. Further, the courts won't be on your side. Smokers are not a suspect class entitled to strict scrutiny under the equal protection clause of the 14th amendment, nor is smoking a fundamental right. In other words, smokers are not constitutionally discriminated against. Honestly, your only option is to start a campaign for pro-smoking candidates that can switch the laws in your favor. Sadly, however, you are not in the majority, and probably could not win over enough of government to effect change. And when your a non-suspect political minority, you have to deal with it, and I would personally recommend that you all get over it. Welcome to 2006.
posted by junta330 at 11:24 P.M. EST on Wed Feb 08, 2006 #
Welcome, NEWBIE communist troll. I'm not pro-smoking, which is ALWAYS your SAME, tiring, asinine argument-I happen to be pro-CAPITALIST , PRO-PRIVATE PROPERTY RIGHTS, AND PRO-FREEDOM!! I was born during the time of your hero, Hitler-I don't want to see fascism make a comeback. Got it?
posted by Foolkiller at 12:53 A.M. EST on Thu Feb 09, 2006 #
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b251/Foolkiller/hitleryouth.jpg
posted by Foolkiller at 01:03 A.M. EST on Thu Feb 09, 2006 #
Hahahaha, this is toledo's finest. I love it. Did you ever think that you're what's wrong with Toledo? Because I do. I'm not a fascist because I don't believe in inferior classes. Obviously, instead of puting forth a rational argument against me you have instead relegated to namecalling. The most ironic part is that you don't even know what a fascist is.
posted by junta330 at 01:04 A.M. EST on Thu Feb 09, 2006 #
Oh, yes, I do. Because I'm old enough to remember. It's people like you. And this guy.
There was a lot more to the Nazi agenda than just yellow stars and death-camps.Anti-smoking activism was one such area. Hitler's goal was a "secure and sanitary utopia".The anti-smoking campaign was one instance of the Nazi campaign for"racial and bodily purity".Before modern Canada Hitler embarked on a program of tripling taxes on cigarettes,draconian restrictions on indoor smoking,and a goofy, largely anti-semitic ,propoganda campaign against smoking.The results?Smoking rates actually increased 50% in Germany between 1932-39,while staying stable next door in France during the same period.(Although the prize packages from German academic medicine who testified before a tribunal about how non-Aryan babies were systematically slaughtered because of their race,when they weren't throwing bleeding people in wheelchairs out in the freezing cold to have a cigarette-Hitler for the most part allowed smoking in restaurants).
For the record Germany passed a law forbidding Jews from smoking in 1938.Jews were denied coupons nessesary to purchase cigarettes.(This was later extended to pregnant women and to all women under 25).Images of second-hand smoke invariably contained images of dollar signs and Stars of David.Nazi anti-smoking posters contained carictatures of Hasidic Jews trying to lure an "Aryan"youth to take up smoking.Smoking was depicted in posters as the vice of"capitalists,Jews,Africans,degenerate intellectuals,and loose women."Hitler in fact called tobacco"the wrath of Red Man against the White Man for having been given hard liquor."Smoking was considered"a genetic poison to the Aryan Race."
a brief excerpt from The British Medical Journal(BMJ No 7070 Volume 313)by Penn St.historian Robert N Proctor"The anti-tobacco campaign of the Nazis:a little known aspect of public health in Germany,1933-45"
"Smoking was banned in many workplaces,government offices,hospitals and rest homes.The NSDAP(National sozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei)announced a ban on smoking in its offices in 1939,at which time SS chief Heinrich Himmler announced a smoking ban for all uniformed police and SS officers while on duty.The Journal of the American Medical Association that year reported Herman Goering's decree barring soldiers from smoking on the streets,on marches and on brief off-duty periods.Sixty of Germany's largest cities banned smoking on streetcars in 1941.Smoking was banned in airaid shelters,though some shelters reserved seperate rooms for smokers.During the war years tobacco rationing coupons were denied to all pregnant women(and to all women bellow the age of 25)while restaurants and cafes were barred from selling cigarettes to female customers.
From July 1943 it was illegial for anyone under the age of 18 to smoke in public.Smoking was banned on all German city trains and buses in 1944,the initiative coming from Hitler himself,who worried about exposure of young female conductors to tobacco smoke.Nazi policies were heralded as marking'the beginning of the end of tobacco use in Germany'."
posted by Foolkiller at 01:09 A.M. EST on Thu Feb 09, 2006 #
And if you consider yourself to be a fine example of superiority-why, you'd have loved Uncle Adolph! Your type of guy. No-I would NEVER consider myself as one of "toledo's Finest"-because they're usually people like yourself, that merely give me one more reason to hate it.
posted by Foolkiller at 01:13 A.M. EST on Thu Feb 09, 2006 #
Indeed, even your username implies a hatred for those that disagree with you. Foolkiller. Fools, much like beauty, are in the eye of the beholder. And the implication that you want to kill those that dissent from you indicated a lack of education, a lack of common sense, and a lack of respect for the community at large (just in case you're confused, community has nothing to do with communism). Hatred, my dear Foolkiller, is not good, regardless of your stance on politics. Indeed, you compare my philosophy to Hitler and communism. Have you read a book in your life? It seems to me that you yourself reflect the travesties of Hitler and Communism. You see me as a fool, and as such you want to kill me. But I can assure you I'm much more educated than you, and although I don't think education is the end all be all, I think you probably did not graduate from high school. And in the event that you did graduate from high school, you shouldn't have. You don't know the difference between calculus and algebra.
posted by junta330 at 01:15 A.M. EST on Thu Feb 09, 2006 #
So by your reasoning, because I'm "anti-smoking," even though I smoke, I'm like Hitler, because he was against smoking. That might be the dumbest thing I've ever heard . No, that is the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
posted by junta330 at 01:19 A.M. EST on Thu Feb 09, 2006 #
Seems a stretch to assume a meaning being the name foolkiller, junta330. Wow, how insulting, and arrogant. The word 'fool' doesn't have to mean stupid,or uneducated, or one whose opinion differs than yours. My name is starling,and ya know what? I am NOT a bird. I have a friend who uses proudconformist, and she is the farthest thing from being a conformist. How you make the leap of being uneducated to foolkiller........oops, forgot, that is the same mentality that clings to a ban that impinges on privately owned businesses. We need to be very careful what rights we take away, it will open the floodgates for much worse. If this country would put as much energy into alcohol abuse, and it's abusers, perhaps I wouldn't be so angry about it. And you are right foolkiller, it seems most of those you see in the non-smoking sections are overweight. We ate recently on a weekend night at Magdelanas (owned by Loma Lindas, in Michigan, has a big smoking section), and it was packed. The tables are very close together (think Ventura's), and at no time, did we see smoke lingering in the air. They smoke cigars openly at Port Royal at Westgate, small shop, great air filtration system. You never smell or see smoke. I grew up in a time when you had an ashtray next to your bedside in the maternity ward, the docs smoked in their offices, you could smoke on airplanes, in the courthouse. I never saw smoke hovering in the air on a plane, or smelled it. Yes, times have changed, and I have no gripes about removing smoking from public places. However, privately owned businesses are NOT public places. They are privately owned and the public is "invited" to come, your choise. It is that restaurant/bar owners money that is invested, his reputation on line. Cafe Marie never allowed smoking, it was their choise, even before the ban. I have no problem with that, and choose to not eat there. On the other hand, you also have the right to choose to not eat at Ventura's, that does allow smoking. I am so sick of seeing the standup kids on tv, I mute it out. That little 12 yr old twit in our faces, haughty as all get out, I want to tell her to sit down and shut the hell up. How dare this brat of a child presume to get in people's faces. Or that other commercial where these people announce all the people they know who have died of heart disease or lung cancer and never smoked - guess what? You can die from that shit and never smoke. Rambling on a bit here, sorry. foolkiller I am impressed with your knowledge of the history. I have a son majoring in history, and I sent what you wrote to him, he knows a lot about WW2 and Hitler. I learn something new every day. Facinating stuff. junta330, you come off as very insulting, smug.
posted by starling02 at 02:02 A.M. EST on Thu Feb 09, 2006 #
thanks so much for the tips, doknowdocare. Will try those. Did know about steak and shake. I called the Navy Bistro and they said 'lounge' area, tall chairs I thought they said, but I'll call again. (we have a gift certificate there). I never did like the tall stools and tiny, round bar tables,even when I was much younger (I am not a relic). I am short, 5'2". And recently I slipped on the ice, broke my pelvis, so it is very hard to handle high stools. Always was though (these short legs). They aren't the most graceful thing for a woman to handle anyway. And the tables are usually so tiny, there's no room for anything. Angelo's Northwood Villa has a beautiful smoking section, just like the main dining room, white linen tablecloths, candles, it is gorgeous in there anyway, elegant but casual. You never feel like second class in the smoking section there. (and you never see or smell smoke in restaurants that use good air filtration systems). foolkiller, I beg to differ. I don't know the stats, but every restaurant we've been to that has a smoking section, the non-smoking section is always emptier.
posted by starling02 at 02:10 A.M. EST on Thu Feb 09, 2006 #
foolkiller, the link to the cartoon (I think it is a cartoon?) won't show up, I even tried to copy and paste it. Says 'this page won't be displayed'.
posted by starling02 at 02:20 A.M. EST on Thu Feb 09, 2006 #
You are correct starling, I am a very smug person and I have a very high opinion of myself. Further, I appreciate your tone and your approach toward me much more than Foolkiller. I understand your point of view. Indeed, as I noted earlier, I'm a libertarian and believe in private enterprise very strongly and the freedom of choice of such businesses. My point to foolkiller was that the government has already stripped away our rights to such freedoms and there is no legal solution to this problem at this point. I offered the solution that smokers establish a strong political movement to represent your opinions, but I also noted that your opinions are of the minority and will never win unless a strong grass roots movement is created. Forgive me if you took my approach the wrong way. I have no doubt that you are a good person with good intentions. But when someone like Foolkiller starts namecalling without reason, I tend to get a little more aggressive. My more insensitive comments were directed at Foolkiller and not you. Between this post and the next post, I may have intermingled some arguments. Again, I'm sorry if you took it the wrong way.
That said, my true philosophy is that you should eat where you wanna eat, and if the owners want to allow smoking than they should. I believe, and I may be wrong, that the more expensive restaurants actually do better having no smoking at all. As much as I don't like watching the 12 year olds on the commercials either, they have a point. Second hand smoke, like all smoke, is dangerous. Why expose children to such a danger if it is unnecessary? You guys claim that these studies are false, but I have seen no evidence of that whatsoever. I beg of you to answer my response reasonably, with what you know and in good faith, because this name calling on the part of Foolkiller seems unnecessary. After all, all I want are reasons, not rhetoric that claims I'm a fascist or a communist. Nothing could be further from the truth. Again, I'm sorry you confused my comments as directed at you, they were directed at foolkiller.
posted by junta330 at 02:31 A.M. EST on Thu Feb 09, 2006 #
Hello Junta,
You write, "Second hand smoke, like all smoke, is dangerous." That line confirms your acceptance of the anti-smoking campaign.
A history of their positioning through the last several decades shows that first they were against smoking. Some people stopped, some people didn't. When the pharmaceutical companiies developed nicotine gum and patches, they started throwing huge funding to the anti-smoking groups. That funding continues to this day (Robert Woods Johnson Foundation - J&J) In order to expand their market, the mantra morphed into "secomd hand smoke is a killer". This became a push to eliminate all smoking.
If the movement was truly in the interest of public health, the standards of OSHA would have been applied to the air inside taverns and restaurants - heck, all venues. But it wasn't.
Are there toxins in second hand smoke - sure there are. There are toxins everywhere. We've all heard the radio ad where someone anounces a list of toxins then concludes that they can all be found in cig smoke. Nitrogen Dioxide, Benzene, Hydrogen Cyanide, etc. . .
These chemicals are all but immeasureable in cigarette smoke and OSHA and EPA have already set acceptable levels for their presence. SHS doesn't go anywhere near the existing limits for any substance, including nicotine. More benzene and formaldehyde comes from carpet installation and cooking on non-stick fryware than comes from a roomfull of smokers.
When these facts came to light, the antismokers mantra changed again - this time ti "There is no safe level of second hand smoke". That's because OSHA only has the ability to consider single components of smoke, which vary from sample to sample and is unable to set a safe level for SHS as a whole.
It may be annoying, but cigarette smoke is certainly not a primary contributor to exposure to toxins and cancer agents. Source - the Chemistry of Environmental Tobacco Smoke: Composition and Measurement, R.A. Jenkins.
posted by jimavolt at 08:04 A.M. EST on Thu Feb 09, 2006 #
It has always seemed clear to me that neither my family nor I should be subjected to participating in the public display of a drug fix nor, in fact, collaterally participating in the ingestion of the drug.
posted by limedrops911 at 08:16 A.M. EST on Thu Feb 09, 2006 #
Foolkiller - no apology necessary. It's not a problem. Not sure why you thought that, but it's not a problem. :)
I am a very smug person and I have a very high opinion of myself. ... junta330, having a high opinion of ones self doesn't give license to be obnoxious. Personally, I find your posts to be inflammatory and hypocritical. (i.e. - because I'm "anti-smoking," even though I smoke) And your challenge to Foolkiller's educational level is unwarranted. Perhaps you feel that if a person does not carry a degree of some sort that they are somehow not worthy of forming their own opinions. Precisely what's wrong with this whole debate.
Starling - the liquor industry will never garner the scrutiny the tobacco industry has. There are more drunks on Capitol Hill than we care to acknowledge. That's what will keep the House of Seagram in business. ;) Also, the exploitation of kids by the anti-smoking campaigns is deplorable. I can only liken it to pimping the kids. Are the adult anti-smokers afraid that their message won't be taken seriously if they don't appeal to our patent maternal/fraternal instincts? Oh pulleeezze...
Limedrops - please feel free to frequent anyplace that I don't. It would make me immensely happy.
jimavolt - thank you for, once again, attempting to enlighten those that are so easily influenced by the media. The true studies have failed to determine the short and long term effects of second-hand smoke. Personally, I will take my chances in a smoke filled restaurant as opposed to the risk (immediate risk!) of driving on an interstate highway.
posted by DoknowDocare at 08:40 A.M. EST on Thu Feb 09, 2006 #
Starling - Abuelo's in Maumee has a beautiful smoking section. It's in the lounge, but the booths are large and comfortable and you are treated with the same level of service as the other diners.
posted by DoknowDocare at 08:41 A.M. EST on Thu Feb 09, 2006 #
Limedrops - please feel free to frequent anyplace that I don't. It would make me immensely happy.
I prefer restaurants in Toledo to guard my childhood-damaged lungs from further damage. Therefore, I suppose we shall never be dining together, and that, indeed, is a pity.
posted by limedrops911 at 08:46 A.M. EST on Thu Feb 09, 2006 #
Foolkiller, in his welcoming best posts this ad hominum attack on a first-time poster here:
Welcome, NEWBIE communist troll. I'm not pro-smoking, which is ALWAYS your SAME, tiring, asinine argument-I happen to be pro-CAPITALIST , PRO-PRIVATE PROPERTY RIGHTS, AND PRO-FREEDOM!! I was born during the time of your hero, Hitler-I don't want to see fascism make a comeback. Got it?
So, Foolkiller, are you always so pleasant? And are you certain that your up-front, in-your-face personal attacks actually scare people enough so that they will be timid in expressing opinions opposed to yours?
I believe it is time for you and other flaming posters to find your own message board or one that welcomes your sordid tactics. Many of us have, in fact, actually grown up, and find it an unpleasant deja vu experience to once again be reminded of our high school hallway jerks.
Pardon my use of the term, 'jerk,' but often 4-letter words succinctly move the message forward.
Ah, those high school years! How unpleasant with all of those adolescent hormones chemically altering the cognitive areas of the brain. I wonder if there have been any studies on whether, in rare cases to be sure, those hormones do, in fact, cause permanent damage to cognition. Surely, all of us have seen from time to time certain people who, after experiencing them briefly, we feel are adolescents in adult bodies. You know the kind: shouting, anger, narcissism drooling from the lips, quick to fight, 'my way or the highway.'
Thank God these are the rare cases in our society, but there are enough of them around to endanger another's well-being. I wonder if Congress could enact a law that would not only identify these adolescents in adult bodies [AAIB] but also have a national registry of them so that you would know if one lives in your neighborhood.
Just think of how helpful this would be to your family. Your children, for sure, would be well served by a national AAIB registry. A parent could warn the child not to talk to the person in the yellow house at any time because a 'naughty person lives there who will call you names.' Of course, the child might say to the parent, "Mommy, is my classmate Mike on that list, too, cause he calls me lots of names on the playground?"
posted by limedrops911 at 09:11 A.M. EST on Thu Feb 09, 2006 #
How many times do have to say that I am not pro-smoking ban? What the hell are you people smoking (no pun intended)? Can you read? All I'm saying is that many private restaurants probably do better now that they are non-smoking, and smokers need to get over it. I can't imagine even this will get through your thick, little skulls. "Oh my God, somebody disagrees with me slightly, I better throw a fit!" - The idiots on this forum.
posted by junta330 at 11:10 A.M. EST on Thu Feb 09, 2006 #
All I'm saying is that many private restaurants probably do better now that they are non-smoking
Anybody have any stats that would confirm/deny the above? I'd really like to know.
posted by billy at 11:27 A.M. EST on Thu Feb 09, 2006 #
Limedrops, you never had to subject your kids to the smoking sections, not of those that offered a choise (and most have,for as long as I can recall). Even pre-ban, I don't recall a haze or stench of smoke, because most restaurants use excellent air cleaning equipment. I too, would like to see the stats on those whose business is better since the ban, because what I am seeing and hearing, I'd find it hard to believe. THanks for the tip on the maumee restaurant, we heard about one out there, didn't know what it was.
posted by starling02 at 11:57 A.M. EST on Thu Feb 09, 2006 #
The fight to amend the Toledo smoking law was financed by taverns, bingo halls and bowling centers. The restaurants either thought it wouldn't affect their businesses or went ahead and constructed smoking rooms to ensure that the law wouldn't affect business.
As far as studies on profits go, the piles of information are so subject to misinterpretation that they aren't valuable at all. Antismokers will preach that since smoking was banned in California, restaurant and tavern business increased. This conclusion was based on sales tax totals paid by "restaurants", which includes everything from fast food operations to taverns and strip clubs. Is that sector of the economy paying more sales tax now than it did in 1995 - yes. Is that because the restaurants and taverns do more business - maybe. But such an analysis ignores the fact that California's population increased by over 8 million people over the last 10 years. That's a lot more people eating more Whoppers and Big Macs.
The only FACTS I know of that deal with the situation are the businesses we saw close-up while the Toledo law was in effect. Although taverns were the first to feel the effect, the 4E Ranch House closed up as did both Max's diners locations on Reynolds. The smoking ban was clealy the straw that broke the backs of the owners.
I don't know how the ban is affecting restaurants that didn't put in a smoking section. But I know most of them decided to invest the money so they could continue to cater to those who required a smoking venue. Only place I can think of that didn't is Fifi's, and I'm not sure how she is doing. I'm more of a chicken-wing kind of guy.
The actions of the restaurant owners indicate to me that they feel smokers are necessary to the success of their business. Since these are the folks who's investment is at stake, I value their opinion more than an antismoking zealot with no vested interest in the success or demise of these businesses.
posted by jimavolt at 01:01 P.M. EST on Thu Feb 09, 2006 #
The idea that restaurants are more profitable post ban vs pre ban is absurd. One only needs to look at the number of restaurants that previously had smoking sections, the majority if not all of them. There is your anwser. I feel that this is simply legislating on taste. The reason most smoking sections post ban are improvised is because of the capitol outlay not to mention the potential of closing for remodeling and losing buisness. If smoking was really causing a loss of buisness for restaurants you would have seen enclosed smoking sections years ago.
posted by Lightblue at 01:18 P.M. EST on Thu Feb 09, 2006 #
Boy, these smoking threads sure bring out the Nazi trolls & lurkers that never came out of hiding before, don't they Jim? It seems like that's all some people's reason for existing on the face of the earth is to get rid of everyone who doesn't live the way they do.
posted by Foolkiller at 04:16 P.M. EST on Thu Feb 09, 2006 #
How many times do have to say that I am not pro-smoking ban? What the hell are you people smoking (no pun intended)? Can you read? All I'm saying is that many private restaurants probably do better now that they are non-smoking, and smokers need to get over it.
How many times do you have to be asked to provide quantitative data to back up your claim? This should be a relatively easy task for someone so educated as yourself. At this point, I'd even settle for some anecdotal evidence...
posted by thenick at 04:25 P.M. EST on Thu Feb 09, 2006 #
Oh, by the way-yes, I have done algebra & calculus, for I am indeed a college graduate. Big deal. I'm retired. Couldn't even tell you where my degree is. Don't care if I ever see it again. It means absolutely nothing to me, although it obviously means a great deal to some people, just because they can think in their thick skulls that they're somehow better than other people because of it. Smoking is not a "class" thing, which is yet another argument. You give yourself away as yet another elitist/yuppie wannabe with your smug sense of superiority. A college education today & a dollar will get you a cup of coffee. GuestZero can tell you a lot, which I don't intend to go into now, that shows the old Reagan years philosophy of white-collar is good , blue-collar is bad was nothing but bullshit. They're working on eliminating all jobs here. Limedrops has a lot of balls talking about being insulting-that's all he/she has basically done since day one of joining the board. I become irritated when i see the same lies told over and over and over again and accepted as truth-which was the Nazi's way of coming to power. My screen name was taken from a period in the 80's where I collected comics-primarily Marvel(did so from the 1960's through roughly 1990) The Foolkiller was a Marvel Comics character-a vigilante. I sometimes feel we need to bring them back today. So there you go. DoKnow, I know there was no apology necessary, merely a feeble attempt at humor.
posted by Foolkiller at 04:45 P.M. EST on Thu Feb 09, 2006 #
By the way, Starling, I thought that was what I said-the smoking section had more customers. If not, see it as a typo. I'll check on that link.
posted by Foolkiller at 04:48 P.M. EST on Thu Feb 09, 2006 #
First off, yesterday foolkiller you were calling me both a fascist and a communist, and now a Nazi. I don't think it's possible to be both a fascist and a communist. So which is it? Second, I joined this site two days ago, so I wasn't really in hiding. As to your request thenick, I've looked hard and there doesn't seem to be any quantitative data on this matter. If you'll recall, this whole thing got started because I requested data. I wondered what the data showed. Some how, people like foolkiller have turned this into a name calling because I theorized that the restaurants are successful. My reasoning was that they would be more accommodating to smokers if they were struggling. But yes, I too would like a study to be done.
posted by junta330 at 04:50 P.M. EST on Thu Feb 09, 2006 #
I may sound elitist and smug to you foolkiller, but you sound like a bitter old man to me.
posted by junta330 at 04:52 P.M. EST on Thu Feb 09, 2006 #
Just checked the link, Star-works fine for me. Got a feeling you must have a setting in your browser that's the problem, but-I'll describe it to you. It's a picture of one of Hitler's nazi youth movement-a kid about 10 years old, in his little uniform. He's saying: "Father, you are smoking. I must turn you in." That's close to where we're at today. Those who totally forget the past are condemned to repeat it.
posted by Foolkiller at 04:54 P.M. EST on Thu Feb 09, 2006 #
By the way, foolkiller, when I said you probably don't have much of an education, I was referring to your maturity level. You act like a 12 year old. I was having a little fun with words, so to speak. And you act as if Hilter's whole thing was anti-smoking. That is something.
posted by junta330 at 05:08 P.M. EST on Thu Feb 09, 2006 #
No, Junta-I am a senior citizen who wore a uniform for this now-swiftly-becoming-worthless Constitution, due to people who think as you do. I was in the military (I thought) to defend rights-including yours-assuming you were even born then, which I doubt. I know full well before you say so that you never did wear one. I don't want history to repeat itself. I have every right to become angry when I continue to see freedom slowly eroded each & every day. Comments coming from people like you (common citizens)-to the media brainwashing from those like Block- to local politicos like Frank So-Lousy , all the way up to the federal level , do tend to make me angry, yes. With you, it's my way or the highway. When I hear talk from elitists, who feel they are right, and if you don't agree with them , why, you must be illiterate & stupid,and (in the case of polititicos)laws must be passed to force you to think their way-to me, it's like spitting on the graves of everyone who died through the years for this country.
posted by Foolkiller at 05:24 P.M. EST on Thu Feb 09, 2006 #
I've got it-we'll crack down on FAT PEOPLE!! Let's DO it! Can you comprehend where we're going with all this? You're going to be OWNED by the state.
------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------
Health costs of obesity exceed smoking and drinking
ATHENS (Reuters) - Treating obesity-related disorders costs as much or more than illnesses caused by aging, smoking and problem drinking.
It accounts for 2 percent of the national health expenditure in France and Australia, more than 3 percent in Japan and Portugal and 4 percent in the Netherlands.
A review of research into the economic causes and consequences of obesity presented at the 14th European Congress on Obesity showed that in 2003 up to $96.7 billion was spent on obesity problems in the United States.
"An increase in the prevalence of obesity increases the healthcare costs," Anne Wolf of the University of Virginia School of Medicine said.
"As age increases so do healthcare costs for obesity."
Obesity, which is a risk factor for chronic diseases like diabetes, is calculated using the body mass index (BMI) -- dividing weight in kilograms by height in meters squared.
A BMI of more than 30 is considered obese, more than 40 is very severe.
The costs of dealing with the consequences of obesity rise along with the severity of the disorder. Being overweight or obese increases the odds of suffering from diabetes, cardiovascular disease and osteoarthritis which are the major reasons for obesity healthcare costs.
"Each unit increase in BMI is associated with a 2.3 percent cost increase," said Wolf.
Although most of the cost analysis for obesity has been done in the U nited States, where about 30 percent of adults are obese, Wolf said the figures would be comparable for other western countries with rising rates of obesity.
An estimated 10-20 percent of men and 10-25 percent of women in European countries are obese.
Along with hefty health costs, obesity is also associated with a greater loss of productivity and increased rates of disability.
Studies in the United States have shown that about 6 percent of people with a healthy weight are unable to work but the figure rises to 10 percent or more among the obese.
Much of the healthcare spending on obesity-related problems is due to prescription drug costs and more hospital stays.
O bese patients are more likely to require medication for diabetes, cardiovascular disease, pain relief, asthma and other illnesses than people with a normal weight, according to Wolf.
Despite the health and economic consequences of obesity, which affects more than 300 million people worldwide including a growing number of children and adolescents, health experts believe it is one of the most neglected public health issues.
"It is a very serious problem," said Wolf. "The excess costs of obesity are present in all ages."
posted by Foolkiller at 05:30 P.M. EST on Thu Feb 09, 2006 #
I respect all those that serve this country. And I know this is off topic, but isn't one of the most fundamental freedoms Americans have is to disagree in an open debate where new and different ideas can be expressed? Is that not one of the things you fought for? I would have no problem with you if you merely disagreed with me, and we had a friendly debate. But instead, you chose to namecall and act like a baby. And I'm not one of those people that thinks it's my way or the highway, despite what you might think. My political views waiver quite a bit from time to time. I tend to agree with democrats on domestic issues, and republicans on foreign issues. If you had argued your point in a reasonable manner, I don't think you would have such a low opinion of me, and I wouldn't have such a low opinion of you. If you had merely said, "promoting a smoking ban reminds me of how Hitler promoted a smoking ban," instead of calling ME "a communist troll," or a "fascist," then we would have had a fairly good debate. Had you actually read what I said, and not assumed what you thought I meant, then perhaps you would see that I also am against the smoking ban. But no, you had to assume, and you had to namecall. I'm just trying to point out to you that this whole thing could have been a lot more pleasant for everyone.
posted by junta330 at 05:40 P.M. EST on Thu Feb 09, 2006 #
I imagine foolkooler, that you would do something like this if you were a bus driver. With your anger and all.
PHILADELPHIA - A transit bus driver grabbed a woman by the hair, knocked her head into a pole, opened the door and tossed her into traffic after she yelled at him for missing her stop, police said.
The 52-year-old woman, who was not identified, suffered a broken shoulder.
Bus driver Mario Edney, 53, was arraigned Thursday on aggravated assault and other charges, said Officer Jillian Russell, a police spokeswoman. He was being held on $2,000 bail.
Edney said he had to skip the woman's stop Wednesday morning because of a detour, police said.
Transit officials intend to fire Edney, who has been suspended without pay, following a hearing, said Richard Maloney, a spokesman for the Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority.
posted by junta330 at 06:05 P.M. EST on Thu Feb 09, 2006 #
Yeah, that's really an intelligent form of debate. Has nothing to do with anything, other than in your mind.
Someone asked for some info on business results. These are old, and I don't know if the good links will reproduce. If they don't, let me know if you're interested in any particular story health agencies are bar owners' target
"I will back any individual that has cancer, but I will not donate to these third-party organizations that are lined up against us," added Mr. Delaney, who said he himself has skin cancer.
"I stopped giving to United Way in 1987 when the very first smoking ban went into effect, and I've urged restaurants to do the same," said Arnie Elzey, owner of Arnie's Eating and Drinking Saloon and another member of Citizens for Common Sense. "I was right. Here they are trying to put us out of business."
Officials from the health organizations responded with a written statement condemning the bar and restaurant owners' position.
Smoking Ban Takes Toll on High School Band
Jackpot Bingo leases its parlor to a dozen different non-profit groups on a regular basis. Those groups rely on bingo revenue as a main fundraiser. However, since the smoking ban went into effect last April, attendance at the bingos has dropped by more than 50 percent.
The Tates Creek High School Marching Band stands to lose about $80,000 this year in bingo money.
"We're trying to supplement this with raffle ticket sales and candy sales, but $80,000 is a large chunk of change," says Assistant Band Director Andy Critz.
If the band can't raise enough money to offset the loss, they may have to cancel some band trips or competitions.
N.Y.'s ban made my bar's profits go up in smoke (Expired Link. Grand Forks Herald)
Now, I and my managers have not been paid for three months. We've gone without so that we could pay the bills. I've had to let go a third of my staff. And there's no explanation other than the smoking ban.
A friend in the travel industry told me she lost a $100,000 tour from Germany when the smoking ban went into effect, as they refused to go someplace where they couldn't smoke.
Smoking ban 'hits Guinness sales'
Profits dropped, say bar owners (Expired Link. The Republican)
"It's definitely down. Just look around," said Gary M. Ziemba, the owner and sole occupant on a recent day at the Blue Room Cafe in Chicopee Falls.
Ziemba, who is running a business that has been in his family since 1936, said he believes sales have dropped by 25 percent from last summer's take.
"People are complaining about it. They're saying 'Why go out for a drink when I can buy a six-pack and sit at home?' It's really hurting us," she said.
Smoking ban enforcement fires up (Expired Link. Lexington Heard-Leader
In a news conference yesterday, Logan said the ban was "killing local restaurants" and announced that the Maxwell's on Waller Avenue will close Sept. 30 because of the effect of the smoking ban. That location has been open for 14 years.
Owners of Anchor Inn say county smoking ban sunk business (Expired Link)
Since the ban was implemented October 2003 by the Montgomery County Council, Scaggs said Anchor Inn suffered a 40 percent loss in Keno, beer, wine, liquor and food sales.
Prior to the ban, Scaggs had installed a $350,000 ventilation system in the restaurant with air exchangers that took in smoke and replaced it with fresh air.
Smoking ban put into effect one year ago
Slauson said he hasn’t seen anything like this drop in sales during the past 24 years that he’s owned the business...
Administrator Richard Zurn said the smoking ban has cut bar business in half at the lodge.
"It’s hurt our business tremendously," Zurn said Thursday. "It’s way, way down..."
"Everybody smokes in a bar," he said. "If you don’t want the smoke, don’t work there."
Zurn said the ban has changed how people act in the bar, and he wasn’t sure i
"People used to come in and stay," he said. "Now they come in, have one beer, and leave."
Statistics don't blow smoke: Minicasinos lose revenue (Expired Link)
Let me choose a real person for you at random. How about my waitress here in the Ripe Tomato Bar supervisor denies allegation, blames miscommunication
A city of Toledo employee responsible for enforcing the smoking ban testified yesterday that he was told to file two false reports against area bars for smoking violations that he never saw or believed to exist.
When I went there, there was nobody smoking. They had their signs up, and there were no ashtrays, so there was no violation,” Mr. Carleski said.
Sometimes a Cigar Is Just Illegal, G.O.P. Is Told
Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg is under pressure to ensure that well-heeled cigar lovers are held to the same standards as those who prefer skinnier forms of tobacco. The mayor drew fire in January for attending a black-tie dinner at the St. Regis Hotel where Wall Street tycoons smoked cigars openly.
Secret Galas, Shrouded in Smoke
Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg, who is vehemently anti-smoking, would not automatically disdain an invitation to Mr. Giuliani's party, said his press secretary, Edward Skyler. "He wouldn't not go on account of where it is being held."
Board denies smoking-ban waiver (Expired Link. Ithica Journal)
The business lost almost $30,000 and 110 bowlers during the 32-week league season, according to a document submitted by Parkin's attorney, James Kerrigan. In the bowling alley's busiest months between January and May, Parkin saw a 14 percent decrease in activity comparing the same period in 2004 to 2003.
Bar owners challenge smoking ban in court
Larry Clough, Colchester, says,"I'm down 2,500 bucks a week. That's $125,000 a year, and I have no problem with a smoking law being enacted, it's just that it doesn't encompass everybody."
Many of the bar and pub owners, some who are going bankrupt, have pooled their money and hired an attorney even though they know it's an uphill battle.
Manitoba Smoking Ban Leads to Job Loss
"Manitoba Lotteries Corp. will give severance packages to 269 workers — a move the corporation says is necessary because of Winnipeg's tough smoking ban.
"The ban is expected to drain at least $50-million annually from the lottery corporation's coffers…"
Smoking Ban Leads to Layoffs
269 Manitoba Lottery workers have been given severance packages in a move the corporation says is necessary because of Winnipeg's tough smoking ban.
In ashes?
"...reports that takings have dropped by anywhere between 15 per cent and 50 per cent come as no surprise."
"“It’s a disaster, my trade is easily down 20 per cent,” said Frank O’Connell who owns MacTurcails, a pub in the centre of Dublin that was popular with tourists and locals alike."
Dublin hit by smoking ban
“The research clearly proves that the Dublin pub trade is losing as much as 650 full time staff and 1,300 part time staff. Let’s be clear about the real cost of the smoking ban – up to 2,000 jobs are being lost.”
Smoking ban still inflames some (Expired Link. The Journal News)
Olszewski and other bar and restaurant owners said they hadn't seen an increase in people who said they were attracted by the fact that no smoking was allowed.
"It just hasn't happened," he said. "Anyone who thinks this isn't hurting business is wrong."
Venues: Too early to rate smoking ban impact
Berry said he is seeing an exodus of formerly loyal patrons to venues such as the American Legion, the local Elks club, and other private clubs that are exempt from the ban.
£20,000 blow for smoking ban pub
"We were finding with big parties if a couple of people smoked they were not prepared to go outside for a cigarette, so we ended up losing a table of 20 people
Vintners say smoking ban has cost 2,000 Dublin jobs (Expired Link)
The Licensed Vintners Association has claimed the workplace smoking ban has led directly to the loss of 2,000 jobs in Dublin.
The association, which represents publicans in Dublin, said pub sales were down by 16% since the ban was introduced on March 29.
posted by Foolkiller at 06:28 P.M. EST on Thu Feb 09, 2006 #
Well, that article proves nothing. I was talking about restaurants. Not bars. All your examples had to with bars. Check back, which I know you won't, I never once mentioned the word bar.
posted by junta330 at 06:35 P.M. EST on Thu Feb 09, 2006 #
I'll look, but I believe someone said "Businesses", which I took to mean the entire hospitality industry. I think it's apparent to everyone else reading this thread that you'll never get the information you desire, or, if you do, you'll find it flawed. You're like that, as well as smug, condescending, and arrogant, and it's impossible to have a debate with your ilk. therefore I find insulting you far more fun. :-D
posted by Foolkiller at 07:27 P.M. EST on Thu Feb 09, 2006 #
Well, you'll find it flawed because you don't want to agree with it. And actually, it is quite possible to have a debate with me. And smug, condescending, and arrogant are all correct descriptions of me, but I'm this way because I've never been wrong. Trust me, I've never been wrong.
posted by junta330 at 08:08 P.M. EST on Thu Feb 09, 2006 #
Well, that article proves nothing. I was talking about restaurants. Not bars. All your examples had to with bars. Check back, which I know you won't, I never once mentioned the word bar.
But at least he's got something. Why should he be expected to disprove your blanket assertation that the smoking ban didn't hurt, especially if you've already admitted there's no data to back up your statement? Foolkiller may be a jackass for calling you a little Hitler, but he did find evidence of financial loss caused by the ban while you've got no evidence of an increase in food service industry revenue after a ban. Remember that even for restaurants, alcohol sales are the real moneymaker and when I see smokers in a restaurant, most of the time they're not drinking a Coke.
BTW, Here's a list of reported financial losses due to smoking bans. Maybe not the most Fair and Balanced source, but the law of averages would suggest that at least a few of the businesses listed did close due to smoking bans.
posted by thenick at 08:14 P.M. EST on Thu Feb 09, 2006 #
Junta,
I'd suggest that you've likely never admitted to being wrong. Big difference from never being wrong. You have a lot to learn - and another 4 years of college won't help you in the least.
posted by jimavolt at 08:20 P.M. EST on Thu Feb 09, 2006 #
Sense of humor people.
posted by junta330 at 08:30 P.M. EST on Thu Feb 09, 2006 #
And to you thenick, I guess I can be a broken record one more time. This whole thing started because I wanted to see the statistics. I offered a theory, which I knew could not be proven at this point, and as a result was called a fascist/communist. Do I know for a fact that restaurants are doing better than before the smoking ban? No, I don't know that for a fact. I merely speculated that if they were hurting, they'd invest more money into their restaurants to regain the smoker business. A natural, yet ignorant criticism of that point is, if they're losing money how would they pay for it. Simple, loans and investors (depending on the business). Since many restaurants haven't made a great effort to accommodate smokers under the new law, I thought perhaps this was a reasonable explanation. I do not have access to any or every restaurant's books. I can't tell you what their profit margins were before or after the smoking ban. It's obvious that, yes, a smoking ban in bars would hurt bar business, but I've never argued against that, even though you seem to imply that I did. A question was asked, and I offered a theory. It's a theory, and as I've said time and time again, it may be wrong.
posted by junta330 at 08:39 P.M. EST on Thu Feb 09, 2006 #
And the information on that link is obviously very biased.
posted by junta330 at 08:43 P.M. EST on Thu Feb 09, 2006 #
Let me settle things:
Foolkiller is a bitter old man.
Limedrops is an Internet troll.
Junta is an idealistic kid with apparently some education and no life experience.
You can be a communist and a fascist, but not a communist and a Nazi.
Toilet paper should be hung with the roll away from the wall and the best color for anything is red.
Did I miss anything?
posted by MemyselfandI at 08:57 P.M. EST on Thu Feb 09, 2006 #
I'll agree to settle, but I want to take a poll. Now none of you have to answer because I realize this is an anonomous site, but am I the only person on here under the age of 35?
posted by junta330 at 09:03 P.M. EST on Thu Feb 09, 2006 #
Junta, it's not entirely your biological age that makes you an idealistic kid with no experience in the real world. It's your indignation and inability to listen to what smarter folks with worldly experience are telling you. Most truly intelligent people I know have learned that it's possible to gain insight from others.
Maybe someday you'll catch on, maybe not. It's up to you. As for me, I've grown weary of sharing my thoughtful insight with someone so self-absorbed. Good luck to you.
posted by jimavolt at 09:41 P.M. EST on Thu Feb 09, 2006 #
I don't understand why you're under the impression that I won't listen to anyone jimavolt. I absolutely have the ability to listen to others and understand their point of view. I'm really not that self-absorbed either. Although it may appear so from my writings, a lot of that was in humor, but i guess I should know not to do that because it's hard to pick up a dry sense of humor over writing. Or maybe my writing style just appears cocky. Either way, I can assure you that you've misjudged me. As to my lack of worldly experience, I've had more than you think. I worked retail for 6 years while attending college and parts of high school. Further, I have travelled almost all of western europe. I have travelled extensively around the United States as well. I have met and talked with a lot of people with a lot of different points of view. I have worked in the courts. I have shaken hands with murderers, and victims and their families that have had some of the worst things happen to them. Things you could never imagine, and things that I hope would never happen to you or anybody. I currently attend law school, and I work at a firm at the same time. I'm sure many people here have good lawyer jokes to tell, and many of you hate lawyers, but that is not the point. You have such thoughtful insight jimavolt, but have you ever personally heard the perspective of a 17 year old kid, who grew up poor all his life, got into drugs and killed someone just so he could get a fix? Have you ever tried to have a conversation with a frenchman who hates and despises everything about America because of what he sees on TV, only to convince him to change his mind after meeting you? I don't know for sure, but I would venture to guess that I have more "worldly" experience than you. And before you say anything Foolkiller, I know we saved the french's asses and they should always respect us, and I know you have more worldly experience than me. Again, jimavolt, you may have lived longer, and you may have worked longer, but I've listened to some sh!t in my day. Don't judge me, you sound like a fool.
posted by junta330 at 10:15 P.M. EST on Thu Feb 09, 2006 #
By the way, I just checked your profile and see that you own the distillery. I've been there recently, and I don't think you've been hurt one bit by the smoking ban. It's been packed every time I've been there.
posted by junta330 at 10:28 P.M. EST on Thu Feb 09, 2006 #
Junta,
You cannot gain wisdom by traveling through Europe on mommy and daddy's dime to "find yourself". You don't gain it by playing lawyer. You don't get it from talking to people. You certainly don't get it from six years of retail.
You want wisdom and worldliness? Have people depend on you to earn a living. Start a business and worry about making payroll. Take on some responsibility where the fate of people you love hangs in the balance.
When those you love depend on you, ideological purity evaporates and pragmatism born of a need to survive emerges.
posted by MemyselfandI at 10:43 P.M. EST on Thu Feb 09, 2006 #
Survival. You should see all the debt I've accumulated recently. If you saw what I owed, your mouth would drop (tuition is outrageous). I have no money, and I'm lucky I don't have dependents at this point in my life. I do hope someday to raise a family, and indeed the would be the ultimate success in my life. I was trying to point out to you a few things in that last post: (1) I wanted you to understand where my viewpoints come from, whether you agree with them or not; (2) I wanted to explain the inherent sense of humor that I typically write with, because it seems to not be so apparent; (3) I wanted to clear up this image of me as some self-obsessed person, because that is far from the case; and (4) I've heard and seen things that I doubt most people here have, and I think it's important for someone like me to give my perspective, because people that share my perspective seem to be sorely lacking on this site. I thought the purpose of this site was to have a free flowing expression of beliefs and ideas, but it appears to me that the users on this site don't want that. Either that, or it's just some form of newbie hazing. I question anyone that says to me that I lack wisdom, when they don't even understand the purpose of this forum they write on. Indeed, I find much of this hypocritical. Several people continuously missed my point about the smoking ban the whole time, and I repeated it like 30 times. And then somebody tells me I don't listen? The irony is delicious.
posted by junta330 at 11:28 P.M. EST on Thu Feb 09, 2006 #
IMO there is room for everyone to be able to go out to eat and enjoy themselves. The best way to get it done is to get government OUT of it. A business owner will respond to the MAJORITY of his customer base if he's smart. If that base is comprised of smokers, then he/she will allow smoking. If they are non-smokers, then he/she won't allow it.
The worst thing that we can do, as Americans, is to continue to allow (request) government to step in and save us from ourselves. People are just not thinking it through.
If the non-smokers win this fight they will be smug and righteous. Good for them. But when Big Brother steps in to tell them that they can't eat fattening foods, drink caffeine laden drinks, etc. then you will hear all of them griping about losing their freedom of choice.
I know some will say that will never happen. Maybe it will, maybe not. But are you prepared to give up EVERY freedom you have in order to prove a point that hasn't been solidly proven? I'm not. I work hard, I own my home, I enjoy going out to dinner, and I enjoy my cigarettes. I don't drink, but I don't condemn folks who would like to have a drink with dinner.
If I could have MY wish I would hope that restaurant owners would have separate areas for smokers, non smokers, and families dining with children. I'm MUCH more offended and annoyed by loud, ill mannered, spoiled kids in a restaurant than I am by someone having a cigarette or a drink.
I know I won't have my wish, so I just ask for a table in a corner somewhere that limits my chances of being surrounded by cracker throwing infants, boisterous toddlers, and obnoxious adolescents.
Junta - I wish you well with your law career, but I have to agree with the others in that you can have all the degrees possible hanging on the wall but that won't carry you through life like a well written reality check.
posted by DoknowDocare at 11:36 P.M. EST on Thu Feb 09, 2006 #
I agree with everything you just said, doknowdocare. Especially the part about a families section. I'm well aware that going to school gives people an ivory tower complex. I often complain about people that have it. If you all think I have it, and I probably do, you should see the others. They're much worse than I am. Just a forewarning before this catches on to them.
posted by junta330 at 11:43 P.M. EST on Thu Feb 09, 2006 #
Junta wrote: I've heard and seen things that I doubt most people here have,
Until you have spent the majority of your life cleaning up other people's messes I am going to retain rank here. I have wrestled with the bad guy to get him off his kids, tended to the mother who's child is still strapped in his car seat 75 ft from her car with half his head missing, explained to a mother and father why they can't see their 16 year old son after he ate a .38 cal bullet, and much much more. I've had my jaw broken by a drunk, my neck broken by a social ingrate, and my knees and back are shot from trying to help people.
I've dealt with and dined with governors, secretaries of state, police chiefs, mayors, and all the other forms of politicos from village level to the State Department.
You have many years in front of you. Don't let all that smugness get in your way. You are young. Enjoy it. But don't try to age yourself with trips to Europe and student loans. MOST of the posters on this board have already been there and done that.
posted by DoknowDocare at 11:43 P.M. EST on Thu Feb 09, 2006 #
Well it's evident to me that you have seen more than I have DoknowDocare. Point taken. But I still contend that my perspective should be heard.
posted by junta330 at 11:46 P.M. EST on Thu Feb 09, 2006 #
Junta
Do not listen to these tired old downtrodden people. Also, do not let their comments on age and lack of experience get you down. Remain optimistic that it will be possible someday to actually have a country where people can have different creeds, political positions, skin color, sexual preference etc. Where we actually talk to one another to see different viewpoints as opposed to trying to prove who is right, smarter, or more experienced.
We all have different experiences and each person's truth is truth. When we as regular citizens learn to respect each other, we can hold others accountable.
Pessimists are people who have given up hope. No one should ever do that. It takes a lot of work to change people's minds though. Especially the one's who have lived through really bad times.
posted by jdmsbyrd at 12:34 A.M. EST on Fri Feb 10, 2006 #
DoKnow: Thought you might be interested in this:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/medicine/story/0,,1702120,00.html
posted by Foolkiller at 12:38 A.M. EST on Fri Feb 10, 2006 #
Oh shit,
by the way. I agree that it should be up to the business owner to make the decision on their establishment. Whoever said that is right on.
I think our civil liberties are under attack. We are only a nation divided if we all choose to be.
posted by jdmsbyrd at 12:39 A.M. EST on Fri Feb 10, 2006 #
Well, the link didn't totally copy, so I'll just cut & paste the article.
Chocolate bars to carry 'health warnings' on wrapping
· Leading manufacturers launch £10m campaign
· 'Be treatwise' drive will offer lifestyle advice
Fiona Walsh
Saturday February 4, 2006
The Guardian
Chocolate bars and other sweets are to have a "health warning" printed on the back of their packaging as part of a major drive to educate the public, particularly children, on their diet.
Echoing the health warning on the back of cigarette packets, the new labelling will include a panel for "rotating messages" in support of the government call for balancing lifestyle with activity.
Cadbury Trebor Bassett and rival Mars have joined forces in a £10m information campaign under the "Be treatwise" banner. Both companies will be changing their labelling over the coming months to include a detailed panel containing the nutritional content of their products.
posted by Foolkiller at 12:41 A.M. EST on Fri Feb 10, 2006 #
And Jim-here's one for you:
Monday, February 06, 2006
Calabasas Poised to Ban Smoking Just About Everywhere
The Calabasas (California) City Council voted to give initial approval to an ordinance that bans smoking in all outdoors areas of the city, including streets and sidewalks. The ordinance, which is being supported by at least one prominent anti-smoking group -- Action on Smoking and Health (ASH) -- would not allow a person to smoke on any street or sidewalk unless there was no other person within 20 feet who was not smoking at the same time or who consented to that individual smoking.
The expressed purpose of the ordinance is to protect nonsmokers from exposure to secondhand smoke and to "assure a cleaner and more hygienic environment for the City, its residents, and its natural resources, including its creeks and streams." In addition, it is intended to reduce "the potential for children to associate smoking and tobacco with a healthy lifestyle," to protect "the public from smoking and tobacco-related litter and pollution," and to promote "the family-friendly atmosphere of the City's public places."
The prohibition of smoking in public places is quite broad and includes "any public or private place open to the general public ... including, for example, streets, sidewalks, plazas, bars, restaurants, clubs, stores, stadiums, parks, playgrounds, taxis and buses." Residential property is not included, nor are 20% of the guest rooms in hotels and motels. But unless specifically exempted, "smoking is prohibited everywhere in the city."
I did some checking-it seems there's another notable exception-smoking is to be permitted in the town's premiere retail establishment-the shopping mall.
And there's also a town in New Jersey that has also banned it everywhere-including-your own front yard or porch on your house. Trying to find more info on that.
posted by Foolkiller at 12:56 A.M. EST on Fri Feb 10, 2006 #
What's wrong with a health warning? It's not like they're banning the stuff and throwing those that eat it into concentration camps. (Although, chocolate is actually good for you in many ways).
posted by junta330 at 12:58 A.M. EST on Fri Feb 10, 2006 #
Ok Foolkiller, that last one is pretty funny. I don't even think the supreme court would think that's a legitimate government action. They would probably overturn that law. But then again, who knows, it's whichever way the wind blows with them. If you can't smoke outside anymore, your town is screwed up.
posted by junta330 at 01:01 A.M. EST on Fri Feb 10, 2006 #
And...Here we go, Jim-the one we all knew was coming:
Doctor Links Beer With Risk of colorectal cancer
Screenings show greatly increased odds in those who drank 8 or more glasses a week
By DELTHIA RICKS
Newsday
A doctor who describes himself as a former beer drinker has found that significant beer or other alcohol consumption — with the exception of red wine — increases the risk of colorectal cancer.
"I switched over from beer to wine. Yep, based on my own studies," said Dr. Joseph Anderson, an assistant professor of medicine at Stony Brook University Hospital on Long Island, N.Y.
Anderson said he's no longer a beer fan even though he had no problems. What he found, though, were serious health issues in many of his beer- and spirits-imbibing patients.
Anderson said he found that his patients who drank eight or more glasses of beer or about the same number of stronger alcoholic beverages per week had a significantly elevated chance of having precancerous polyps or fully developed colorectal cancers.
"Beer and spirits are probably just as important as a family history of colorectal cancer when it comes to risk," Anderson said.
2,291 test subjects
Reporting in the September issue of the American Journal of Gastroenterology, Anderson and a team of Stony Brook researchers examined 2,291 patients undergoing routine colonoscopy screenings.
Patients who drank eight or more glasses of beer or stronger beverages per week were more than twice as likely to have precancers or full-blown cancers than those who drank less or who chose wine instead.
Earlier studies have suggested that alcohol has a powerful effect on the colon and increases the likelihood of cancer development because of the increased amount of aldehyde, a noxious compound that forms as alcohol is processed.
These studies have suggested alcohol can instigate a perilous cascade of events: DNA damage, immune-system suppression and the activation of a class of proteins known as P-450 enzymes that spur the liver to produce so-called pro-carcinogens.
posted by Foolkiller at 01:20 A.M. EST on Fri Feb 10, 2006 #
This enough? Didn't copy correctly, as far as having the columns for lost tips, jobs lost, etc; everything got condensed-but screw it-that's enough for me for one day.
Business Type Of
Business Closed? Business
Lost Tips
Lost Jobs
Lost City State/
Country
Oscar's Place Bar/Restaurant 40% 3 Anchorage AK
"I opened my door 13 years ago to give the common man a place to go. Now 3 years after the do gooders passed the smoking ban, my business still hasn't recovered, and I may have to close my doors forever."
Cafe Santa Fe Restruant Closed 100% 100% Fayetteville AR
Casa Taco Restruant Closed 100% 100% Fayetteville AR
"Sales dropped off dramatically. We lost our late-night business ... a lot of people come in after the bars close."
Hoffbrau Bar/Restruant Closed 100% 100% Fayetteville AR
Before closing, The Hoffbrau reported a 50% drop in liquor sales due to the ban.
Ozark Brewing Co Brew Pub Closed 100% 100% Fayetteville AR
Crocodile Cafe Restaurant Closed 100% 100% Tempe AZ
Pooch's Easy Street Billiards Pool Hall Closed 100% 100% Tempe AZ
Calico Saloon Tavern 30% 5 Lancaster CA
Daddy's Lounge Tavern 35% 3 Long Beach CA
Doherty's Tavern 66% Tulare CA
Dunkhouse Saloon Tavern 50% Clearlake Oaks CA
Femino's Blue Gum Restaurant Closed 100% 100% Willow CA
Fireside Lounge Tavern 70% Escondido CA
Grand Central Casino Casino 42% 15 Lakewood CA
Since the ban took effect in February, liquor sales are down 42 percent and food sales have dropped 25 percent. Fifteen employees have been laid off and another 40 to 50 jobs are in jeopardy.
Laurel Bowl Bowling Alley Closed 100% 100% San Luis Obispo CA
385 league bowlers quit when the smoking ban went into effect, with a loss of $200,000. Laurel Bowl had been in business for 37 years before the ban.
Marco Polo Lounge Tavern 80% Tulare CA
"On nights where we allow our patrons to smoke, we make about $120 a night. Last Monday we didn't allow our customers to smoke. Our total sales were five dollars."
Rim Ram Tavern 75-90% Santa Fe CA
Before the smoking ban, we would take in about nine-hundred dollars on Wednesday nights. The week following the start of the smoking ban we barely made three-hundred dollars. The next week we only made seventy-five dollars, and we made even less in the weeks following,"
The Lika Club Tavern 60% Bell CA
The Old Dog House Tavern Closed 100% 100% Soulsbyville CA
Bart's Bar/Restaurant Closed 100% 100% Louisville CO
Bart's had been in operation for nearly 30 years.
Red Garter Lounge Tavern 45% Greeley CO
Roasty's Steakhouse Restaraunt 60% Greeley CO
Union Colony Brewery Brew Pub Closed 100% 100% Greeley CO
Bear and Grill Bar/Restaurant 30-40% Fairfield CT
"I used to close down at 1 a.m. Now I close down at 9:30. The next three hours are dead."
Brown Derby Tavern 50% Montville CT
La Primavera Restaurant Closed 100% 100% Meriden CT
When the statewide smoking ban snuffed out cigarettes in his bar area last October, 80 percent of his business went up in smoke. The restaurant was one of the few family restaurants remaining in the city.
Pinstripes Sports Bar Closed 100% 100% Norwich CT
Pinstripes Sports Cafe Sports Bar Closed 100% 100% Norwich CT
Rack N' Roll Pool Hall 30% Stamford CT
Tracie's Pub Tavern 40% Bristol CT
My business has dropped about 30 to 40 percent since the smoking ban. I've spoken with a lot of bar owners in town and they all have the same problem.
Back Stage Cafe Bar/Restaurant Closed 100% 100% 20 Wilmington DE
Coach House Bar/Restaurant Closed 100% 100% 8 Wilmington DE
Just Mugs Saloon Tavern 33% Bear DE
Naamans Cafe Restaurant Closed 100% 100% 8 Wilmington DE
Bogey's Restaurant/Sports Pub >20% Venice FL
Cherry Pocket Restraunt 30% 30% Lake Wales FL
Small business work so hard for their business, it is hard to believe the Goverment can just take it away without any thought at all.
Collier Lee Vending Vending Machines 40% N/A Cape Coral FL
We have over 60 customer accounts in 4 counties all of which have shown losses of 25% to 60% since the start of the ban.
Double Nichol Pub Tavern 10% 10% 3 St.James City FL
Elks Private Club 50% (Bingo Ft. Pierce FL
"Our Charity money is down 50% or more over this time last year. We are going to be able to spend only about $5,000.00 this year on our Christmas programs vs. $12,000.00 plus last year. The Christmas programs include Salvation Army, Waterfront Mission, Sharing and Caring (food bank) and then we take needy families shopping for food, clothes and a few toys for the kids. We did about 17 families
Elks #1795 (Private Club) Lodge Private Club 40% 22% Fort Walton FL
"Charity money is down 45%. Our Charities are Kids of Florida and the Veterans. That is who is really getting hurt the most by this!"
Elks #2256 (Private Club) Lodge Private Club 20% 30% Pensacola Beach FL
"We've lost 70 members because of the ban"
Elks #2273 (Private Club) Lodge Private Club 60% 60% 1 Plantation FL
Grandma's Kitchen Restaurant Closed 100% 100% 5 Thonotosas FL
Gulf Harbor Yacht Club Private Club 68% New Port Richey FL
Jerseys Sports Cafe Sports Bar 25% 20% 4 North Fort FL
Whatever happened to the individuals freedom to choose where you go and what you do in public?
Melons Bar & Grill Bar/Restaurant Closed 100% 100% 4 Port Charlotte FL
Before closing they experienced a 50% loss in sales and a 60% loss in tips becuase of the smoking ban.
Miller's Ale House (35 Locations) Jupiter (and FL
After the law took effect July 1, 2003, the Ale House chain experienced the first decline in business in its 15-year history, said Dave Reid, vice president for operations. ...For the first five months of 2004 alcoholic beverages sales were down $2 million compared with January through May of 2003"
The Falls Restaurant Closed 100% 100% Naples FL
"We lost 70 percent of our income," Renzello said. "The law put us out of business." 90 percent of her customers were smokers.
Toucans Bar & Grill 30-40% 50% 3 Tampa FL
Zook's West Palm Beach FL
"It has almost put me out of business. We are down about 45 percent for each month," Zook said. "Our food sales were 48 percent of our business. Now they are down to 10 percent. A lot of people who had drinks with lunch or dinner are not coming in now. They can't eat here."
Village Inn Sports Bar 37% 6 Skokie IL
Friends and Company Bar/Restaraunt 30% Lexington KY
The restaurant has experienced the lowest revenue in the last 19 months.
Jackpot Bingo 50% Tatets Creek KY
The Tates Creek High School Marching Band stands to lose about $80,000 this year in bingo money.
Lynagh's Pub Bar/Restruant 40% Lexington KY
"Smokers still come, but not as often and they don't stay as long. "
Maxwell's Tavern Closed 100% 100% Lexington KY
Maxwells had been open for 14 years.
Nicholson's Cigar Bar Cigar Bar 100% 100% Lexington KY
Owners of Nicholson's Cigar Bar say it didn't make sense to operate a smoke-less cigar bar
Aloha Tavern Closed 100% 100% Hingham MA
Blarney Stone Tavern 25% Springfield MA
Blue Room Cafe Tavern 25% Chicopee Falls MA
The business has been open since 1936
City Line Cafe Tavern 50% Springfield MA
"People are complaining about it. They're saying 'Why go out for a drink when I can buy a six-pack and sit at home?' It's really hurting us."
Gold Mine Restaraunt Bar/Restaraunt 50% 50% 2 Fall River MA
"There should be places for both the smoker and nonsmoker. I do not smoke but you are killing our business!!! "
J.C. Grear's Restaurant Closed 100% 100% South Weymouth MA
Marlboro Cozy Cafe 60% 2 Marlboro MA
We had 5 employees, now have 3 and that includes me. If this is result of one month of the ban after 35yrs in business I may have to close my doors.
Anchor Inn restaurant Closed 100% 100% Gaithersburg MD
Since the ban was implemented October 2003 Anchor Inn suffered a 40 percent loss in Keno, beer, wine, liquor and food sales.
Buffalo Billiards Pool Hall 50% Gaithersburg MD
Buffalo Wings and Beer Bar/Restaurant 50% Gaithersburg MD
Corner Pub Tavern 40% Silver Spring MD
Dietle's Tavern Tavern Closed 100% Silver Spring MD
Gentleman Jim's Restaurant 40% Gaithersburg MD
Grand Marquis Caf‚ 30% Olney MD
J.J. Muldoon's Bar/Restaurant 20% Gaithersburg MD
Mark Timmons Tavern 20% Rockville MD
Middlebrook Restaurant and Lounge Bar/Restaurant 50% Germantown MD
"I'm so bitter today because I have worked too hard to keep this business going. It's just not fair."
Mrs. O'Leary's Restaurant and Pub 50% Gaithersburg MD
Normandie Farm's Bar/Restruant 50% 2 Tysons Corner MD
Pelican Pete's Restaurant 60% Germantown MD
Potomac Valley Lodge Lodge 17% 75% 4 Poolesville MD
"I think in the future we'll have to close in the winter. We'll lay everyone off, let them collect unemployment for a few months and bring them back. They'd make more on unemployment."
Quarry House Tavern 70% Silver Spring MD
New customers who come to the bar because it's smoke-free don't bring in the revenue that smokers did, she said. "They have one beer, a glass of water and something to eat," she said, whereas smokers tend to stay longer and eat and drink more alcohol.
Silver Fountain Restaurant Restaurant 33% Rockville MD
Stained Glass Pub Tavern 30% Olney MD
Uncle Jed's Roadhouse Tavern 50% 70% 2 Bethesda MD
...Smaller establishments have seen total sales decline by an average of 30 percent during the week and 50 percent on weekends, according to Melvin Thompson, vice president of the Restaurant Association of Maryland
Black Duck Lounge Tavern 70% Houlton ME
"I've never seen it like this before. It's like all the customers just disappeared."
Nutshell Tavern Tavern Closed 100% 100% Biddeford ME
Village Variety Closed 100% Fryeburg ME
Grandma's Restaraunt 33% Cloquet MN
Perkins Restaraunt 26% Duluth MN
Aessa Bar/Restaurant 35% 6 New York NY
Airport Inn Tavern 40% Binghamton NY
Evans says business has dropped at least 40-percent in the last year. Her liquor license expires next April, and she says, she doesn't plan on renewing it. The Airport Inn was a successful business for 18 years.
American Legion Private Club 60% 50% Elmira Heights NY
American Legion Post 1041 Bingo Hall 68% Buffalo NY
Amherst Bowling Center Bowling Alley Closed 100% Buffalo NY
Argyle's EasyStreet Tavern Tavern 12% Cortland NY
Athens Cafe Restaurant 55% 10 Astoria NY
B&G Bar and Grill Bar/Restaurant 30% Buffalo NY
Barker Brew Pub Bre Pub Closed 100% 100% Fredonia NY
Closed after 10 yrs. in business
Barrie's Tavern Tavern 40% Syracuse NY
Bec's Ivy Grill Bar & Grill 23% 3 Oneida NY
Blarney Stone Bar/Restaurant 15% 1 New York NY
Blessed Sacrament Church Bingo Hall 50% Albany NY
Blinkey's Tavern Closed 100% 100% Delhi NY
Blondie's Tavern Tavern 25% Elmira Heights NY
Bowl-O-Drome Bowling Alley 14% 2 Ithica NY
TThe business lost almost $30,000 and 110 bowlers during the 32-week league season... In the bowling alley's busiest months between January and May, Parkin saw a 14 percent decrease in activity comparing the same period in 2004 to 2003.
Brazen Head Pub Tavern 40% Monroe NY
Brown Shanty Tavern 20% 1 Watertown NY
Buoy's Dockside Tavern Tavern 36.5% Oswego NY
Cabaret Tavern 40% 1 Buffalo NY
Caffe on the Green Bar/Restaraunt 35% New York NY
Bar business fell about 35 percent immediately after the ban. It has picked up since he added a "butt hut," an outdoor tent where patrons may smoke, but it's still less than before the ban.
Canandaigua Billiards Pool Hall 40% Canandaigua NY
Caseys Pub Tavern 35% 1 Sunnyside NY
Castle Heights Tavern Closed 100% 100% New York NY
Celtic Cultural Organization Bingo Hall 30-35% Troy NY
"From July 25 through Nov. 1, we are down about $12,000 from the same period last year."
Central Hotel Bar/Restaurant 50% Port Leyden NY
Champions Billiards Cafe Brew Pub/Pool Hall 33% Parkville NY
Chances Tavern Closed 100% 100% Falconer NY
Chili American Legion Post 1830 Private Club 70% Scottsville NY
Christanis Bar and Grill Tavern 40% Rochester NY
Clifford's Tavern Bar/Restaurant 40% Cold Brook NY
Coin Operated Amusements Vending Machines 20-50% Jamestown NY
Revenue from vending machines and games cut in half in many places.
Coldspring Volunteer Fire Dept. Tavern 50% 75% 1 Steamburg NY
The fire department owns the bar. Money from the bar buys equipment for the fire department. The income has been cut in half. This money buys new ambulances, trucks, gear ect. Remember, this all volunteer. Without the bar money we are going to have to rely on the town for revenue. You may lose your house or even someone's life without the money for the equipment.
Coleman's Irish Pub Bar/Restaurant 19% 4 Syracuse NY
Cook Bar & Grill Bar/Restaurant 40% 2 Buffalo NY
Cork and Bottle Tavern Closed 100% 100% Potville NY
Located near the PA border, this was literally a Mom and Pop business, run by a couple with no employees to "protect."
Crossroads Steak House Restaurant Closed 100% 100% Kennedy NY
D&S Diner Restaurant Closed 100% 100% Savannah NY
Sales were down $3,000 in July 2002 compared to July 2001. Hardest hit were on Friday nights and Sunday mornings.
Dadio's Central Tavern 30% Corfu NY
Damon's Party House Tavern 40% Cicero NY
Delmar Sportsman's Tavern Tavern 30% 1 Massena NY
"We had hoped...nonsmokers who haven't been frequenting taverns due to the smoke-filled air would make up for at least some of the financial loss. Unfortunately, at least in our place, this has most definitely not happened. Our sales are at an all time low"
Desperado's Tavern 90% Wallkill NY
"I can count on my fingers the people who don't smoke who come in here. The regulars say they won't come."
Doc's little Gem Diner 27% Syracuse NY
"We fought tooth and nail and won a local County victory, only for the state to turn it over to a complete ban."
Dodesters Tavern 20% Syracuse NY
"My business is down 20% from the same period last year, even though I'm now open three more hours a day and I didn't have a kitchen then."
Eagle Beverage Company Distributor 25% N/A Oswego NY
"Deliveries to pubs and taverns have decreased substantially, greater than 25 percent."
Edigan's Restaurant Closed 100% 100% Binghamton NY
Elbo Room Tavern Closed 100% 100% New York NY
Elks Lodge (Private Club) Private Club Closed 100% Jamestown NY
Bingo, which funded their charitable work, is now completely shut down.
End Zone Bar/Restaurant 30% 1 Liverpool NY
Euzkadi Restaurant 50% New York NY
Fiddler's Green Tavern Closed 100% 100% New York NY
We have just lost too many customers to this law, which I did not vote for, bar owners did not vote for, bartenders did not vote for, and the public did not vote for."
Fieldstone Recreation Billiard/Bar/Snacks 40% 1 Bronx NY
Finish Line Bar/Restaurant 40% 2 Bellerose NY
Five Corners Bar/Restaurant 32 oneida NY
After 20 years of hard work this is what NY state does to us. Where are all these nonsmokers?
Fountain Bowl Bowling Alley 40% N/A 8 Jamestown NY
Freddies Bar/Restaurant 50% 3 Buffalo NY
Friar Tuck's Restaurant 50% Cotati NY
"Just as my establishment was beginning to flourish, I'm hit with this smoking ban which has killed my daytime business. People who used to stay for a couple of hours now only stay for one quick drink and leave."
Fulton Ale House Tavern 25% Fulton NY
George & Shirl's Tiny Tavern Tavern 41% Southport NY
In October 2002, the bar made $6,000. This past October, after the ban went into effect, they made just $3,500,
Golden Rail Ale House Tavern 25% Newburgh NY
Hancock's Hudson Tavern Bar/Restaurant 15% Rochester NY
Harry's Hanover Square Bar/Restaraunt Closed 100% 100 New York NY
"Overnight, we lost 60 percent of our evening bar trade. For the bar, it was the difference in profit and loss. Sales of expensive cigars had been almost as important as the sales of Scotch" Harry's had been in business for more than thirty years
Harter's Bar/Restaurant 40% Camden NY
Holmes & Watson's Tavern 30% Troy NY
Hotel McDonald Hotel 70% Bath NY
Ireland's 32 Tavern 50% Suffern NY
Jean's Bar & Grill Tavern 26% Wilson NY
Just One More Tavern 30% Bath NY
KayCey's Tavern 45% Hyde Park NY
Kim's Trackside Tavern Tavern 25% 25% Auburn NY
Our local cayuga county health dept. continues to refuse to issue smoking waivers to businesses who have suffered a financial hardship.
Knights of Columbus Bingo Hall 80% Malone NY
La Bataclana Tavern Closed 100% 100% Jackson Heights NY
Lakeview Hotel/Blues Rock Cafe Tavern 50% 50% mayville NY
On the first day of the ban, my tips and number of customers dropped 50%, and never came back up.
Le Bar Bat Tavern Closed 100% 100% New York NY
Liberty Lanes Bowling 27% Camden NY
Madame X Tavern 50% New York NY
Mama Lena's Restaurant Closed 100% 100% Binghamton NY
Mama Lena's had been in business for more than 40 years.
Manhattan Beer Distributors Vendor 19% New York NY
Stagnant sales have led to a 7% drop in beer demand citywide, and a 19% drop citywide to clubs.
Maple Tree Inn Tavern Closed 100% 100% 3 Portville NY
Mel's Place Tavern 78% 100% Falconer NY
After proving they had lost significant business, Mel's place was granted of the NY's few wavers. Their business immediately returned to the pre ban level, but the owners are worried about what will happen when the waver runs out in a year.
Metropolitan Restaurant Bar/Restaurant 25% 2 Cheektowaga NY
Middleport Inn Bar/Restaurant Closed 100% 100% 13 Middleport NY
"This damn state really knows how to kill people's dreams."
Millennium Restaurant 40% 3 New York NY
Mills Race Restaurant Bar/Restaurant 40% 2.5 Mt. Morrison NY
Nibsy's Pub Bar/Restaurant 18% Syracuse NY
Nocturne Nightclub Closed 100% 100% 70 New York NY
O'Neill's Tavern 20% 3 New York NY
"People who don't go to pubs just don't go to pubs. They said the ban would be good for business and for employees, yet my business is down and three good staff are out of work and unable to find another job...Most of my staff are smokers, and now they're being protected from second-hand smoke."
Olympian Sumont Inc Pool Hall/Bar/Rest 40% 3 Long Island NY
Open Net Lounge Tavern 11% Massena NY
O's Place Tavern Closed 100% 100% Endicott NY
Pangaea Tavern Closed 100% 100% New York NY
Panorama Sports Bar/Night Club 50% 50% 4 Rochester NY
We are a small night club that was doing very well until the smoking ban hit us and it hit us very hard. We are very scared of our future, if any .
Partner's Pub Bar/Restaurant 20% 1 Johnstown NY
Patsy's Lounge Tavern 46.4% 50% 2 Jamestown NY
"I have let 2 employees go and the other 3 have had their hours cut in half."
Peter K's Bar/Restaurant 35% 2 Cheektowaga NY
Pocketeer Billiards Pool Hall 60-70% Buffalo NY
"The President says small business is the backbone of our country, NYS says screw small business just give us your money and your blood! All of it!!!!!!
Pocketeer Billiards South Pool Hall Closed 100% Springville NY
From the Owner: "Pocketeer Billiards South is now officially closed due to the Hitler like laws the NYS. Politicians have enacted! NY continues in its efforts to drive business out to other states. I like many others have now chosen to leave after living here 58 years."
Rafferty's Bar/Restaurant 35% 2 Syracuse NY
Richard's Ole Timer Bar/Restaurant 17% 1 Clay NY
Riverside Lanes Bowling 20% 2 Marcy NY
Roesch's Tavern Closed 100% 100% New York NY
Lauterborn, 60, said his bar, Roesch's in Queens, saw 40 customers nightly before the ban but only about five after it. He closed in September and says his children are supporting him while he looks for work. His tavern had been a 100 year old family owned business.
Rough Kutts Tavern Tavern 21% 1 South Dayton, NY
Roy D Graves VFW Post 1194 Tavern 22% Potsdam NY
Salingers Tavern 35% 2 Rochester NY
Sammy G's Bar/Restaurant 50% Rome NY
Seven's Bar Tavern 30% Malone NY
Shamrock Tavern Tavern 50% Oswego NY
"It's not right. Our livelihood is being taken away."
Sharkey's Sports Bar and Grill Sports Bar 60% Staten Island NY
Shorty's Sports Bar & Grill Bar/Restaurant 30% Utica, NY
Silo's Bar & Grill 35% Chestnut Ridge NY
Slade Restaurant 40% New York NY
Slick Willie's Pool Hall 25% Tonawanda NY
Southgate Lanes Bowling Alley/Bar 55% 7 West Seneca NY
Stumble Inn Tavern Closed 100% 100% Champlain NY
Sugoba Bistro Bistro Closed 100% 100% 28 New York NY
After 8 years of success in NYC, the NY smoking ban killed my Bistro in less than a year! In less than 3 month my business declined 37%. Within six months I was unable to meet payroll and I had to lay off 28 employees.
Susie's Corner Bar/Restaurant 23% 1 Buffalo NY
Swan's Tavern Closed 100% 100% 7 New York NY
"I felt bad laying off seven workers. Most of them had been with me for the five years Swan's was open. None of them had ever complained about secondhand smoke. "
Swift's Tavern 40% New York NY
"It's absolutely killed us. This time last year the bar would be packed with the after-work cocktail crowd. Now they just take a bottle of wine or a six-pack to each other's apartments, where they can smoke."
Syracuse Brigadiers Bingo Hall 61% Syracuse NY
"The hall was losing about $60,000 per month in net income for the past three months because of the smoking ban."
Taylor's Trackside Bar/Restaurant 50% Remsen NY
Temple Israel Bingo Hall 50% Albany NY
According to Herb Holland, some of the regulars told volunteers that they would abstain from playing bingo, to protest the smoking ban. He hasn't seen them since.
The Alps Restruant Closed 100% 100% Wheatfield NY
The Cam-Nel Tavern Closed 100% 100% Mattydale NY
The Cam-Nel had been in operation since 1952
The Dog House Bar/Restaurant 28% Utica NY
The Lodge at the Lake Inc Bar/Restaurant 50% 1 Broadalbin NY
The Loft Tavern 30% Frewsburg NY
"Our town has no attractions to draw in outsiders. We have only locals to rely on as patrons and 95% of them smoke. It will be worse when the snow sets in."
The Loop Lounge Bar and restaurant 30% Rochester NY
I own a small local tavern and I have a 90% smoking cliental. Let me say it just sucks.
The Meeting Place Restruant/Tavern Closed 100% 100% Wheatfield NY
The Press Box Tavern Closed 100% 100% Niagara Falls NY
The Press Box had been open for 45 years.
The Roadhouse Tavern 40% Brewster NY
The Royal Pheasant Restaurant Closed 100% 100% 20 Buffalo NY
The smoking ban caused an instant 80 percent decrease in revenue. The Royal Phesant had been a family business for 58 years.
The Web Tavern Closed 100% 100% Ogdensburg NY
Owners Janet and Anthony Doerr say the smoking ban destroyed their business.
The Wonderbar Tavern 50% Goshen NY
Thompson Road Tavern Bar/Restaurant 25% Syracuse NY
Tommys Park Place Tavern 40% Syracuse NY
Unique Lounge Bar/Restaurant 40% 4 Sloan NY
Varick Restaurant Inc Bar/Restaurant 35% Utica NY
VFW Post 6533 Private Club 20% 25% East Randolph NY
Village Tavern Bar/Restaurant 10% Marcellus NY
Village Tavern 50% Wellsburg NY
Viva Debris Comedy & Magic Club 30 30% Syracuse NY
Voelker Bowling Center Bowling Alley 30-40% Buffalo NY
The smoking ban hit us like an anvil, curtailing bowling activity by 30 to 40 percent and the bar business by 20 to 30 percent.
Walmore Inn Restruant/Tavern Closed 100% 100% Sanborn NY
Whiskey Ward Tavern 20% 2 New York NY
Whispers Cocktail Lounge Bar/Night Club 50% 90% Middletown NY
Windsor Ale House Tavern Closed 100% 100% Jamestown NY
Woody's Pub Bar/Restaurant 25% 3 Lockawanna, NY
Ye Olde Anchor Inn Bar/Restaurant 18% 22% Lakewood NY
Adam's Place Tavern Closed 100% 100% Toledo OH
Bait Shop Bar & Grill Closed 100% 100% Toledo OH
Blue Jeans Tavern Closed 100% 100% Toledo OH
Consaul Tavern Tavern Closed 100% 100% Toledo OH
Consaul Tavern had been in business over 53 years.
East Broadway Nightclub Nightclub 50% Toledo OH
"From the get-go I've lost business. I've lost 50 percent -- everybody's losing money."
East Broadway Nite Club Night Club Closed 100% 100% Toledo OH
Elbo Room Pizza Parlor/Tavern 25% 2 Toledo OH
End Zone Electronics Tavern Closed 100% 100% Toledo OH
Fat Tuesdays Tavern Closed 100% 100% Toledo OH
Jordan's Place Tavern Closed 100% 100% Toledo OH
Kacy's Sports Bar 50% Worthington OH
"Kacy's Sports Bar and Grill has room for 300 customers, but now, it's virtually empty."
Laskey Lounge Tavern Closed 100% 100% Toledo OH
Prime Time South Night Club Closed 100% 100% Toledo OH
Rack Time Billiards Pool Hall Closed 100% 100% Toledo OH
Ragtime Ricks Tavern Closed 100% 100% Toledo OH
Rooster Inn Brew Pub Closed 100% 100% Toledo OH
Shamrocks Tavern Closed 100% 100% Toledo OH
The "In" Zone Tavern Closed 100% 100% Toledo OH
Bliss' Steak Ranch Restaurant Closed 100% 100% Eugene OR
Closed after 32 years in business
Doc's Pad Tavern Closed 100% 100% 24 Eugene OR
"Let's face it, the economy is horrible. But for us specifically, the smoking ban was the knockout punch." The Olsen family had owned Doc's for 16 years.
Max's Tavern Tavern Closed 100% 100% Eugene OR
The Peacock Bar/Restaraunt 40% Corvallis OR
Connor owned the Peacock for years - and says it was the ban that caused him to sell the bar. He says business gross fell from $1.5 million in 1997, the year before the ban went into effect, to $900,000 last year.
The Peacock (New Owner) Bar/Restaraunt 50% 36 Corvallis OR
China One Restaurant Closed 100% 100% Round Rock TX
Good Time Charlie's Restaurant 30% San Antonio TX
Matt's No Place Restaurant Closed 100% 100% Dallas TX
Business simply dried up, restaurateur Matt Martinez said, after the City Council enacted a smoking ban in restaurants and other public places. "I just got fed up," said Martinez, "You work to get a clientele and build your business, and then the city comes and takes it from you."
Alexander Mackenzie Inn Hotel 92% 16 Fort St. John CANADA
"Since we were `beaten' into compliance by the WCB, our business has dropped in the lounge from $1,000 a day to $80. "
Bacchus Nightclub Closed 100% 100% Vancover CANADA
In its first two years, it regularly would close to its 275-person indoors capacity, Sorochan {the owner} says. As business dwindled, you'd be lucky to find 60 patrons on hand.
Beacon Hill Arms Tavern Closed 100% 100% Ottawa CANADA
Dave O'Connor, who successfully ran Ottawa's Beacon Hill Arms pub for nine years, said the ban forced him out of business. "From September to February, we lost close to $80,000 in sales"
Bovine Sex Club Tavern 50% Toronto CANADA
Branigan's Tavern Closed 100% 100% 50 Polo Park CANADA
Bud's Place Tavern 23% 5 Cambridge CANADA
Cellarman's Alehouse Tavern 35% Midland CANADA
Friday nights used to generate $2,400-$3,100 before the smoking ban. Since the ban those numbers dropped to $900-$1,400.
Cobalt Tavern 50% Tornoto CANADA
"You build this business, and you're proud of it, and all of a sudden the city makes this blind decision...places like us get totally screwed."
Coffee Time Coffee Shop 50% 100% Barrie CANADA
Coffee Time Coffee Shop Closed 100% 100% Markham CANADA
Eightball VIP Sports Cafe Sports Bar 40% 2 Chatham CANADA
Elements Nightclub Closed 100% 100% Toronto CANADA
Elsewhere Tavern 50% Toronto CANADA
We cut staff early to save cost and boredom. The City of Toronto promised us a deluge of non-smokers who would be deliriously happy to visit us because we're non-smoking. Where are they?
Gardeli's Bar/Restaurant Closed 100% 100% Castlegar CANADA
Hemingway's Bar/Restaraunt 40% 6 Ottawa CANADA
Inuvik Curling Club Private Club 66% Inuvik CANADA
The president of Inuvik's Curling Club predicts it will lose $40,000 by the end of the year, and says the town's smoking by-law is to blame.
Larry's Pit Stop Tavern 49% 1 Kingston CANADA
MacKenzie Lounge Tavern 80% Yellowknife CANADA
Mingles Coffee Shoppe Coffee Shop Closed 100% 100% Kitchener CANADA
Before Closing, Mingles saw a 45% drop in sales.
Mr. B's Restaurant Closed 41% Tilsbury CANADA
nastys Sports Bar 37% Dunnville CANADA
Red Dog Cafe Restaurant Closed 100% 100% Acton CANADA
Rupert Pub Tavern Closed 100% 100% Prince Rupert CANADA
Sam's Hotel Tavern 60-70 Wallaceburg CANADA
"(Business is down) probably 60-70 per cent (at night) and 90 per cent in the daytime."
Sky Garden Restaurant Closed 100% 100% 6 Ottawa CANADA
"It was 100% because of the bylaw. Sales dropped 50%. Our cups of coffee were down 400 to 500 a day, our meals 20 to 30 a day."
The Coffee Bar Coffee Shop 50% Whitehourse CANADA
The Patch Tavern 70% St. Albert CANADA
The Spotted Dick Taverm 60% Toronto CANADA
Tubbys Pizza Pizza Parlor 20% 2 Crescentwood CANADA
Bewley's Oriental Cafe Tea and Coffee Shop Closed 100% 100% Dublin IRELAND
The shop, located on Westmoreland St, had been in business since 1986
Bewley's Oriental Cafe Tea and Coffee Shop Closed 100% 100% Dublin IRELAND
The Grafton Street Shop had been open since 1927.
Fibber Magees Closed 100% 100% Eyre Square IRELAND
``We're damned if we do and damned if we don't,'' Lawless said {Defying the law}. ``We're either going to go out of business or be put out of business.'' Before closing the bar suffered loses of 66%
MacTurcails 20% Dublin IRELAND
posted by Foolkiller at 02:25 A.M. EST on Fri Feb 10, 2006 #
"I switched over from beer to wine. Yep, based on my own studies," said Dr. Joseph Anderson, an assistant professor of medicine at Stony Brook University Hospital on Long Island, N.Y.
Now that is pure arrogance from the doctor. As I noted earlier, I've studied economics. Or as I call it, the study of studies, and I must tell you all a secret. We learned very early on that you can manipulate data any way you want so that it says what you want it to say. I would suggest that the same is true for the "hard sciences" like such scientific studies above. Trust me, it's not hard to manipulate data, indeed it's much easier than you think.
posted by junta330 at 02:30 A.M. EST on Fri Feb 10, 2006 #
But I notice the Bait Shop of Toledo is listed in all these articles. I've been to the bait shop many of times, and it didn't close because of the smoking ban. It was suffering long before then because it was intended to promote a live music scene. It was a large place, and it was intended for the purpose of providing a Toledo music scene (even though it was in Maumee). It was too spacious for its own good. I actually loved the place, but there was never anybody there. They all went to Jed's next door because Jed's allows 18 year old girls. Meanwhile, the baitshop could not provide good, quality bands because it could not compete with its neighbors. The patronage was low for its size, and they could not afford to pay the bands and provide for a Toledo music scene. It had nothing to do with the smoking ban.
posted by junta330 at 02:49 A.M. EST on Fri Feb 10, 2006 #
If I'm at a restaurant I don't smoke, it's just common courtesy-people don't like it and I can understand. Wouldn't go to a bar if Smoking wasn't allowed at least somwhere inside.
posted by Bruno at 05:51 A.M. EST on Fri Feb 10, 2006 #
Junta, it's not entirely your biological age that makes you an idealistic kid with no experience in the real world. It's your indignation and inability to listen to what smarter folks with worldly experience are telling you. Most truly intelligent people I know have learned that it's possible to gain insight from others.
...unless, of course, their 'insight' is wrong. Seems to me that age is not actually a factor in assessing wisdom. I know some fairly dumb old farts and some rather asute 20-year-olds.
posted by limedrops911 at 07:55 A.M. EST on Fri Feb 10, 2006 #
Junta, Your perspective is being heard. I am just concerned that it is what appears to be a little on the pro-government control side.
I don't begrudge anyone their opinion. The ability for us all to express our opinions is a wonderful freedom. Many have died, and continue to die, to assure that we retain the freedoms we enjoy. I am resistant to a loss of those freedoms.
Lime - I have to agree with you. I have known some highly degreed and educated people that wouldn't come in out of a lightning storm, and then some that didn't finish 7th grade that were extremely insightful and enlightened. Formal education does not a genius make.
posted by DoknowDocare at 08:07 A.M. EST on Fri Feb 10, 2006 #
I don't begrudge anyone their opinion. The ability for us all to express our opinions is a wonderful freedom.
You are a breath of fresh air.
posted by limedrops911 at 08:55 A.M. EST on Fri Feb 10, 2006 #
FoolKiller: Thanks for the list. I didn't know about Ragtime Ricks. That's a shame, for the place had been around for years and was a good business.
posted by madjack at 09:32 A.M. EST on Fri Feb 10, 2006 #
As I noted earlier, I've studied economics. Or as I call it, the study of studies, and I must tell you all a secret. We learned very early on that you can manipulate data any way you want so that it says what you want it to say. I would suggest that the same is true for the "hard sciences" like such scientific studies above.
For the last time, stop criticising sources provided by others if you can't be arsed to find your own. I know, I know, you don't have any data and it's a theory. Well, as it stands, I'd say your theory isn't holding water and if you want any of us to take you seriously, you better get to Googling. It took me five minutes to come up with that link and despite it's bias, some of the losses incurred probably were smoking-ban related.
Also, I believe you owe jimavolt an apology. As someone who is under 30 and has already started and driven his own company into the ground, I've found running a business is much more difficult than going to college or travelling through Western Europe. I'd say that for every year spent running your own business, it roughly translates to five years of college experience. Which means during my time at the helm, I gained roughly 3.7 years of college experience.
posted by thenick at 10:26 A.M. EST on Fri Feb 10, 2006 #
I liked Ragtime Rick's. I only knew about it (good food/ music) for 6 months before they shut down. Boo.
John
posted by jdmsbyrd at 11:34 A.M. EST on Fri Feb 10, 2006 #
junta - "I merely speculated that if they were hurting, they'd invest more money into their restaurants to regain the smoker business." Not so simple, they have to spend huge amounts of money to do so, and have a place large enough to accomodate it. I am not sure, does anybody know that since the ban was revised, can a restaurant just put in a smoking section now?? Seems to me, it's not so simple, or many would be doing it. If anybody knows pass it on. At least two times on this board the comment has been made that even though they are smokers, they won't smoke in a restaurant out of courtesy. Then sit in the non-smoking sections. (Can it be that the smoking sections tend to be more fun to hang out in, less anal?) Suit yourself, but seems to me, if you are a smoker, and chose a restaurant with a smoking section, and still chose to not smoke out of courtesy to the other smokers in the room, I am missing something. I am always careful to watch where my smoke may drift to, and if the ventilation is causing it to go towards somebody else, I move either myself or the ashtray, or put it out. Smokers dont have to be rude about it, but again, I fail to see the logic there.
posted by starling02 at 01:33 P.M. EST on Fri Feb 10, 2006 #
There's been a few comments here about the smugness/worth of college degrees. Sadly, it seems to be necessary to have one anymore. But that doesn't mean that the person who holds that degree in better for the job, or more informed. Case in point: If my husband had competed his electrical engineering degree 30 years ago (he had good reasons for not being able to do so), it would have gotten him one of the two promotions at his employement, that instead, were handed out (by the white collars that do not enter the plant, or know who does what,well or poorly, but only looked to who had the 'degree' or not.) He just put his 30 yrs in, is one of the best employees in supervision this company has ever had, working 8 - 16 hour days, 7 days a week, for 30 years on average, no sick days. But the men who got the promotions have degrees in silly stuff, like lawn mower repair, english, adult liberal studies (not that they are worthless degrees, just not relevant to this job). These men are worthless on this job, dont have the first clue how to make or keep the line running, do repairs. My husband has had advanced training in robotics, etc. and can blow these guys out of the water. They never work overtime, leave the office (one brags he reads 2 books a week),play video games, etc. In retrospect, if my husband had completed that degree, it would be worthless now, due to changing technology. If you get a chance, watch Penn and Teller's Bullshit episode on college, pretty much sums it up.
posted by starling02 at 02:08 P.M. EST on Fri Feb 10, 2006 #
Thanks so much for the info foolkiller, and the explanation on the cartoon.
posted by starling02 at 02:10 P.M. EST on Fri Feb 10, 2006 #
Foolkiller and jimavolt, both of you have done fantastic jobs of giving us more information. I'm especially interested in the places, particularly in California, that aren't in a major city like LA or SF. Tourism will always help those cities survive, but tourism won't help a local watering hole in the middle of a desert town.
Also, though I can't provide "official" information, I can tell you that an acquaintance of mine who is a singer/songwriter in NYC is considering leaving the area because of the smoking ban there. She said it's absolutely killing the local music scene. All of the little clubs that cater to locals and book smaller acts are really starting to suffer. Based on what she says, the ban isn't hurting just the businesses, but also the performers who rely on those little places to book them. Just because they don't have record label contracts doesn't mean they don't depend on what money they make to help pay the bills.
posted by valbee at 02:43 P.M. EST on Fri Feb 10, 2006 #
I regret that yesterday I allowed a poster get to me. That poster clearly isn't familiar with the Toledo smoking ban, smoking bans in general or for that matter, business in general. The Baitshop was in Toledo and it's clear to me and anyone else in the know that the smoking ban caused the operation to close. I met with the owner - I know what the ban did to his sales.
Many of you know that I've put my heart into this issue for the last 2 years. Frankly, it irked me to have a novice to the topic preach their position without regard to facts or history.
I'll try to be more open-minded in the future.
To Thenick: The Distillery wasn't my first venture into business. The first couple ventures didn't pan out too well for me either. Keep trying. Even though your first attempt wasn't successful, I'm sure you learned many valuable lessons that will help you in your next venture. Good luck.
To Valbee: Thanks for the kind words. Your friend in NYC is right. The tavern and nightclub business in NYC / NYS is being crushed by the smoking ban.
I hope we can convince Ohioans not to make the same mistake.
posted by jimavolt at 03:43 P.M. EST on Fri Feb 10, 2006 #
SO GLAD I LIVE IN SAN DIEGO !!!
It is so odd when I visit Toledo and there is smoking in bars and restaurants...it sucks...my clothes and hair smell like shit...and I cough like crazy.
Let me tell you...I know for a fact that Bars/Restaurants have not been hurt in San Diego when this fine state of California decided to ban smoking...
I do however, think it is fine and fair that bars/restaurants have smoking sections that are glassed off and away from the rest of the establishment.
As to uncomfortable high chairs and tables in these areas...I say quit smoking and get your fat unhealthy asses in Shape...or smoke to your death and deal with being uncomfortable.
That will be $10 for that pack of smokes!!!
Cannot wait for the government to tax the shit out of those dirty sticks and give tax breaks to those who buy treadmills...
posted by DiegoDude at 04:12 P.M. EST on Fri Feb 10, 2006 #
Link to NY study:
http://www.faac.ca/content/economic%20impact/smokingbanreport.pdf
posted by jimavolt at 04:41 P.M. EST on Fri Feb 10, 2006 #
Yep,Starling, as I stated earlier,I really love how the rabid smoker-hating lurking trolls come out of the woodwork in droves whenever smokers are mentioned anywhere. It's the same on any other board I've ever been on. You'll never see the vast majority posting here any other time, on any subject.Sick of hearing about Florida & Karloffornia. The last time I was in either state, there was never a 30 below wind-chill factor. Enjoy breathing your smog.
posted by Foolkiller at 04:42 P.M. EST on Fri Feb 10, 2006 #
I do NOT Have a fat, unhealthy ass. I am 105 lbs, and no med problems (and I am not an ugly troll). All of my 'fat' is in the right places. Anybody who has a knee, leg, back problem, has trouble on high stools. I only have a temporary fractured pelvis, but it hurts to climb. There is no graceful way for a woman to get up or down from them, especially if she is over 60 (I'm a ways from that point yet)
posted by starling02 at 05:09 P.M. EST on Fri Feb 10, 2006 #
Jim, again you assume I'm referring to bars. I'm not at all. I'm talking about restaurants. I noted earlier that I have no doubt that smoking bans have an adverse effect on bars. For the last time, here was my original post, word for word.
My guess is that these non-smoking restaurants are doing just fine financially. If they were hurting that much, I'm sure they'd be more accommodating. Further, I'm sure they'd rather not hear complaints from non-smokers about being placed too close to a smoking section. Also, as you noted, smoking is a social thing, but it seems that the social thing to do anymore is to not smoke. I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm merely pointing out that it might actually be in the financial interests of restaurant owners to not allow smoking (or at least move smokers significantly far away from non-smokers). I haven't seen any stats on this issue though, and I would be interested in seeing the business effects of smoking v. non-smoking restaurants.
The site you linked to refers to bars.
This analysis, defines bars, taverns and clubs using the following North American Industry Classification system (NAICS) definition: “This industry comprises establishments known as bars, taverns, nightclubs, or
drinking places primarily engaged in preparing and serving alcoholic beverages for immediate
consumption. These establishments may also provide limited food services.”
Again, this study has nothing to do with a smoking ban's effect on restaurants. And before the obligatory response, "well you haven't provided any numbers," I'll refer you to my first post, again and again and again. You all sit here and call me names, and say I don't know what I'm talking about, but you don't even know what I'm talking about. This just proves my theory about bar owners.
posted by junta330 at 05:25 P.M. EST on Fri Feb 10, 2006 #
Junta - you assumed I was posting to you. I wasn't. The link was for Valbee, confirming his earlier position.
posted by jimavolt at 06:04 P.M. EST on Fri Feb 10, 2006 #
Starling, don't let this idiot rent space in your head. He's trolling and is clueless.
Same thing with junta/limedrops. Yes, junta is ignorant, no, she really DOESN'T know what she (he? they? it?) is talking about. Cease feeding the toll and it will dry up and go away.
jimavolt - can I stop in to your club and talk to you a while? I'd like to start my own business and have a question or ten you could answer for me.
posted by madjack at 07:59 P.M. EST on Fri Feb 10, 2006 #
Jim, sorry about the miscommunication. Madjack, you still haven't answered my question. How tall are you? This is the third time I've asked.
posted by junta330 at 08:21 P.M. EST on Fri Feb 10, 2006 #
Madjack - I'll be there socially in the late afternoon. I can always spare a few minutes.
posted by jimavolt at 08:56 P.M. EST on Fri Feb 10, 2006 #
Just had dinner at Abuela's (sp?) on Briarfield, nice smoking section. Good food, I still prefer Carmel's, Ventura's, and Magdelana's food wise, but it had a creative menu and we'll be back. Thanks for the tip.
posted by starling02 at 10:44 P.M. EST on Fri Feb 10, 2006 #
I don't make it a point to say nasty things about obese people, but I wonder why it is, that some of these anti smoking nazi's assume that because somebody doesn't like sitting on a high stool and wobbly tiny bar table to eat a meal, they must be fat asses. If you wanna go down the obesity path, bring it on. Obesity causes more deaths, health problems, than smoking/second hand smoke does (granted, it is self inflicted, as there is no second hand fat getting spread around the room). Also, alcohol abuse has caused more deaths, tragedy, health problems, violence than smoking has (When was the last time you saw a violent fight because somebody smoked one too many?) Seems to me, there's just as many overweight non-smokers as smokers, if not more. I realize I am probably being overly sensitive to being called a fat ass, but that kind of thinking pisses me off. I wear a freaking size "0", mr. san diago. Those stools are awkward to deal with, and it's not because of my fat ass. Junta, yes, some of those are bars, but people do eat at many of them. The Tropics is one that has one of the best hamburgers in town, and it is a bar. I wonder why since these health nazi's are so preoccupied with healthy lifestyles, then why don't they go for an a ban or high taxes on fast food, beer and booze, chips and snacks, etc.? I never claim to be glad I started to smoke, I started at 16, at a time they actually brought you an ashtray while you were in labor, and doctors smoked in your face. No excuse, but it's a hard habit to break. The smoking aids do nothing for the hand/stress/social habit. It is my valeum. I do not take mood drugs, don't drink excessively. Pick your poison, we are all going to die. Sometimes, I think these anti smoking nazi's think they'll live forever, if only they can purge the world of smokers. Well guess what? I know people who died from cancer, heart attacks, who had never smoked in their lives, or were around second hand smoke. They don't always go together.
posted by starling02 at 11:00 P.M. EST on Fri Feb 10, 2006 #
Starling, I agree with your sentiments that obesity and other things are much worse for you than smoking. Indeed, I am also not overweight, and I hate sitting on bar stools. It's just not a comfortable way to sit. I also understand that people like to eat at bars occassionaly. Indeed, you make a very strong argument to allow smoking in restaurants, bars, taverns, etc. Much more rational than those I've heard from Jim or bitter old guy (and then there's madjack, who hasn't made an argument yet, but merely just calls me names because he has a napoleon complex). Anyway, back to the point as to why I buy your argument. Typically, people argue that smoking bans are okay because they take into account the rights of non-smokers. As you noted, drinking is more dangerous, it causes fights, deaths, drunk driving accidents, but it is accepted everywhere because people aren't "breathing it in." I think you make a great point. As bitter old guy says, remember history, and that reminds me of prohibition. Prohibition led to mob rule and simply didn't work. Of course, the difference is that people are still allowed to smoke, just not indoors at restaurants or bars. Regardless, you still make a good point. If non-smokers are arguing that smoking at public places affects their rights, you can argue that drinking in public places affects your rights. And then, remember prohibition and what a terrible thing that was. Point taken.
posted by junta330 at 11:49 P.M. EST on Fri Feb 10, 2006 #
My sister lived in Arizona for a while, and they were asked to put out their cigarettes on the patio of a restaurant - no smoking outdoors. At least not on that patio. I have heard talk of some places wanting to ban smoking in cars, outdoors, etc. It scares me to hell how far they can take these bans/restrictions. It may be just smoking in restaurants now, but what will it be next? And next? There's talk of banning cell phone use in cars in some places. What about the hands free phones? Or newspaper while driving readers? Or eating in cars? It is a slippery slope. I worry anytime they try to take away a freedom, for the 'good of all or us'. I personally do not want my govt. to 'take care of me', or decide what is good for me. That holds true for the non-smokers as well. Why do they need the govt to protect them, when they are perfectly capable of choosing where to eat, go, themselves? There's a huge number of restaurants in Toledo, most do not have smoking sections, and those that do, are banished to crappy bar areas or worse, Siberia, like Manhattan's. The non-smokers have far more choises of where to eat than smokers do. When we look for a new restaurant, I pick up the phone and ask questions. If they don't have a smoking section, we keep looking. The non-smokers have the right to not eat at a smoking establishment, just as I have the right to take my business to the suburbs to find one that accomodates me. I fail to see why all the hoopla is all. But I fear, that first it will be a smoking ban. Next, it will be.......what? They already tax tobacco like crazy,making huge money from it. Why not tax beer and booze the same way? Or fast food? I do appreciate your comments junta.
posted by starling02 at 12:05 A.M. EST on Sat Feb 11, 2006 #
I see your slippery slope argument, and I raise it. It is certainly something to be fearful of. You don't want to ride down a slippery slope because all that crisco will make you obese (a joke bitter old man). God bless starling, you are truly enlightening, and your style of argument is refeshing.
posted by junta330 at 02:19 A.M. EST on Sat Feb 11, 2006 #
Thanks for the kind words, junta. I don't remember exactly how to find this information - I recall an article in The Blade some time ago, about how Toledo has some of the worst micropollutants (sp?) in the country, meaning, that we are more likely to have health problems just by walking out the door. I guess if that is true, I'd rather see all this energy to save us, be directed towards correcting THAT problem.
posted by starling02 at 04:01 P.M. EST on Sat Feb 11, 2006 #
"Cannot wait for the government to tax the shit out of those dirty sticks and give tax breaks to those who buy treadmills..."
And I can't wait for the government to do something even better and that is tax the shit out of that nasty junk food (name it) and give tax breaks to those who buy soy crumbles.
If you're serious about solving health problems, then make that Big Mac cost $6. Where's the cheeseburger tax? We could use some of the revenue from the junk food tax to help fund our public schools. Think of the kids here.
Only about 30% of the population smokes, so why only tax tobacco? You know more than 30% of the population consumes junk food at least once a week. If you want to reach a larger audience and to get more money, tax junk food. I'm all for it. Tax the hell out of it. Make that 16 oz bottle of soda pop cost $4. Then watch the obesity rate drop. Health care costs for everyone would decline.
posted by jr at 10:44 P.M. EST on Sat Feb 11, 2006 #
Good point. The Blade (I think) recently had an article about how some elementary school was selling junk food (I assume candy) to raise money, and some of these kids, under the age of 11, refused to sell it because they said the school told them junk food was bad for you, now the school is having a hard time finding an alternative. When I was a kid, junk food was a rare treat, we didn't have a house full of chips and pop, families rarely ate out. Today, junk food is everywhere. And they are trying to tell you the food that is good for you is bad (additives, fat, carbs). I always have to laugh a bit when I see a very overweight person pigging out in a restaurant but drinking a diet coke. We have become a super size society. Tax hell out of the junk food, fast food, beer, and maybe more families will cook and eat together.
posted by starling02 at 10:56 P.M. EST on Sat Feb 11, 2006 #
So...which is it, Junta? In one post, you apologize to me, and want to try starting our dialogue over,then in several later posts, you call me bitter old man. Make up your mind.
posted by Foolkiller at 12:28 A.M. EST on Sun Feb 12, 2006 #
Relax foolkiller, it was a joke in reference to MemyselfandI's post above, which stated:
Let me settle things:
Foolkiller is a bitter old man.
Limedrops is an Internet troll.
Junta is an idealistic kid with apparently some education and no life experience.
You can be a communist and a fascist, but not a communist and a Nazi.
Toilet paper should be hung with the roll away from the wall and the best color for anything is red.
Did I miss anything?
posted by junta330 at 01:49 A.M. EST on Sun Feb 12, 2006 #
All right. Let's both knock it off then. ;)
posted by Foolkiller at 02:09 A.M. EST on Sun Feb 12, 2006 #
It's true that you have a choice with restaurents, but how about bowling or bingo. I would love to take my grandson bowling, but he has breathing problems and cannot be around smoke. Can anyone please tell me where I can take him that is non-smoking?
posted by deere1 at 09:14 A.M. EST on Mon Feb 13, 2006 #
Changing the topic slightly, but,here's a slight offshoot, and I seriously doubt if anyone's heard about this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4883842.stm
Cheryl Moss, 33, from Dagenham in east London, was stabbed in what police have described as a frenzied attack near St George's in Hornchurch, Essex.
Police say she was on a cigarette break on Thursday morning when she was attacked. Officers do not think it was a patient who carried out the killing.
--------------------------------------------
This was a nurse, at a psychiatric hospital who had to go outside of the perimeter of the site to smoke, due to the 'no smoking on the grounds' policy. it is not known at this stage whether her murderer was a rabid anti-smoker or just a regular run-of-the-mill psycho.
Of course, the NHS ,The UK Health Minister, Tony Blair, the media and all of the anti-smoker groups will all try to deny that this murder has anything to do with smoking bans, but they will not be able to wash the blood from their hands that easily.
To put it simply, had this girl been allowed to smoke in the hospital buildings, in a designated indoor area, as they used to have, or even a guarded and well-lighted- close -designated outdoor area, she would still be alive today.
So, another anti-smoking related premature death to celebrate!
I hope they are satisfied.
But then, they never are.
posted by Darkseid at 08:40 P.M. EST on Sat Apr 08, 2006 #
Well.....hate to say we told ya so....but...you were all warned repeatedly about that slippery slope.
The next wave-and Scotland already has a nationwide smoker ban, by the way- Soon coming to a country near you:
Obesity tests for all five-year-olds
The Scotsman ^ | Sunday, 9th April 2006 | RICHARD GRAY AND KATE FOSTER
EVERY schoolchild will have to undergo an obesity test in their first year at primary school, in the latest controversial attempt by ministers to force Scots to improve their health.
Five-year-olds will be weighed and measured by health workers to assess whether or not they are clinically overweight. Advert for The Scotsman Digital Archive
Those who fail the test could be referred to a dietician for instructions on what to eat, while parents will be told how to prepare food to reduce their children's weight.
Ministers claim that in order to shed Scotland's tag as the sick man of Europe, they need to intrude ever further into children's personal health and the private lives of families.
But the drastic measures were attacked last night as the latest attempt to dictate to parents how they should bring up their children.
Scotland on Sunday can also reveal that ministers are considering plans to ban junk food in packed lunches, and calling for parents to be instructed on what food to give their children to eat at lunchtimes in school.
The move to check children's weight has been introduced by two health boards, Borders and Lothian, following the publication of a report into child obesity last year, Health for all Children 4. Every other region will follow suit by the end of 2007.
The latest figures reveal that obesity levels in Scotland's schools are soaring, with 20% of 11 to 12-year-oldsnow grossly overweight compared with 16% five years ago.
The Health for All Children 4 report suggests that all children should be tested for their body mass index, the standard measure of obesity.
A spokeswoman for the Scottish Executive said that the scheme was designed only to monitor "the impact of public health interventions".
But the report states that parents will also be offered support to help them control their children's weight if they are identified as being at risk.
Public health sources say that, in extreme cases, children will be referred to a dietician.
A separate report, by the public health agency NHS Health Scotland, has recommended a ban on junk food in packed lunches and calls for parents to be instructed on what food to give their children.
NHS Scotland's Developing a Healthy Weight Action Plan, which is backed by 83 health experts, warns that simply providing information to the public about healthy eating and exercise is "insufficient".
Along with the ban on junk food, the report suggests schools lay out to parents what snacks they can give their child to take to school.
Primary school pupils should also be banned from leaving school premises at lunchtime, the report suggests.
Mary Allison, head of health topics at NHS Health Scotland, said: "This is about parents having to look at the circumstances in which they are preparing the packed lunch. Is it something that gets thrown together at the last minute? It could be something that is done the night before, with the child helping."
Adults are also targeted by NHS Health Scotland. Civil servants, hospital staff, council workers and teachers might also face weight screening programmes.
Those found to be overweight could be put in workplace weight management groups, or offered tailored health checks and referrals to 'lifestyle coaches'.
GPs will also be urged to help patients lose weight by assessing it in a similar way to how they deal with their patients who wish to stop smoking.
Allison added: "We would be encouraging GPs to check their patients' activity levels and, if you are completely inactive, you will get advice about doing more exercise, such as walking.
"Questions about physical activity would become as routine as questions about smoking or alcohol intake when patients register with a GP."
But the measures have drawn criticism from some experts and politicians, who believe that health officials are attempting to exert too much control over people's lives.
Conservative health spokeswoman Nanette Milne said: "Obesity is a huge problem that will not be tackled overnight, but we must draw the line at dictating what people should and should not do. Parents themselves have got to take responsibility for their children's health."
Professor Mike Lean, a nutrition expert at Glasgow University said: "There is little doubt that children are getting bigger on average, but many of those who are considered to be obese as children are not when they become adults.
"It is the obese adults who put the most pressure on the NHS and its resources, so we should be concentrating on addressing their problems and the causes of their obesity."
posted by Darkseid at 08:07 P.M. EST on Sun Apr 09, 2006 #
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