Hi, you didn't explain why you hate unions....
There are probably also many many people who hate management. There are two sides to everything. The only reason unions exist is to fend off abuse of workers by management. This abuse is real and would occur more frequently without unions. Unions can create balance, a sense of fair play and they can help to raise the standard of living of workers which translates into a healthier economy and a more productive and efficient economy. They have great potential to bring order and the rule of law to the labor-management game.
However, the down side is that unions have the potential to be abusive also. Protecting workers who are incompetant, lazy, and who committ offenses against a company such as stealing, sleeping on the job, gross negligence, or abuse of sick time should not be protected.
Unions are not perfect and neither are management teams. It is best when there is a balance of power between unions and management in which there is some give and take and compromise on both sides. Believe me, no one, including unions AND management, want a society where one of these two totally dominate because it hurts everyone.
It is really all a problem with people. Neither workers nor management are perfect, however they need each other and they need to balance and share both responsibility and power.
posted by ilovetoledo at 08:34 A.M. EST on Fri Aug 03, 2007 #
My brother in law owns a rigging company. He owns a bunch of cranes, basically. As the owner, he's not allowed to drug test his men - per union policy. BUT if one of these untested guys comes in stoned and gets on one of those expensive machines and does some damage, or hurts someone, it's my brother in law who's held accountable. Unions say they are looking out for their own - but isnt drug testing of personnel who operate dangerous machinery a safety issue?? Isnt THAT looking out for their well being? I guess not.
Billy, i apreicate your candor and your explanation. But not all unions are like this. and as ilovetoledo mention, there is room for abuse on both sides, ive just been on the other side of the fence and i had no union representation and in my case it would have been a godsend.
I do have a question about your brothers company, it sounds like he would be affiliated with one of three different unions. I dont know about two of them, but one in particular i KNOW this is not a policy, the union im referring to has all their members tested yearly and and employer may do so at will whenever they want.
posted by tm at 08:48 A.M. EST on Fri Aug 03, 2007 #
A drug testing policy lowers worker's comp and insurance fees..substantially. It also provides a safe work enviorment.
posted by Chad at 08:53 A.M. EST on Fri Aug 03, 2007 #
A drug testing policy lowers worker's comp and insurance fees..substantially. It also provides a safe work enviorment.
Ouch!!! posted by Chad at 09:53 A.M. EST on Fri Aug 03, 2007 #
I agree, im all for it, thats why i mentioned the one union who would NEVER try to stop a company from doing it.
posted by tm at 09:03 A.M. EST on Fri Aug 03, 2007 #
you didn't explain why you hate unions....
I believe I did. Think about it like people's differing opinions on pit bulls. Some people own em and love em.
Now talk about all the good qualities of pit bulls to someone who's been mauled by one. Im gonna guess you wont change their mind - nor will you change them from voting their mind based on their personal experiences.
posted by billy at 09:29 A.M. EST on Fri Aug 03, 2007 #
"Hi, you didn't explain why you hate unions....
I thought billy elegantly explained the reason that he has taken some positions on this discussion board and on others that I have seen him post.
The truth is that family history has a lot to do with political inclinations and experience with organizations.
I can cite very similar experiences that my family has with unions. And I'm sure that others can cite very alarming and negative family histories with management.
Some families have members who, on one side hate unions and on the other love 'em
The bottom line, here, is that billy VERY generously and courageously provided family experiences that influence his opinions of unions.
You can argue all you want to with him - I don't believe that it will change his mind.
Thanks for the explanation, billy. It demonstrates that you care about your relationship with people here, and elsewhere, that you would reveal this information.
I'll try to be better about explaining myself, as well.
posted by paulhem at 09:39 A.M. EST on Fri Aug 03, 2007 #
Thanks for the explanation, billy. It demonstrates that you care about your relationship with people here, and elsewhere, that you would reveal this information.
Billy, you bring up an interesting subject. I’m glad that Paul Hem has encouraged dumping feelings here.
Look back to why and when unions originated. Labor laws have been created now to protect the safety and well-being of workers. Billy, you mentioned your father’s experience at Libbey Glass and his response to the union’s control of performance. I believe the union was concerned for all of the workers in suggesting your father control his output. There may have been other employees that were not capable of maintaining his output level. In addition, there may have been working conditions down the line that would have caused other workers to be over-taxed. The unions work for all, not just the individual.
Let’s take a look at the recent union issues at The Blade. The craft unions (which were the locked-out ones) had many of these now obsolete work rules in effect prior to the lockouts. The unions negotiated to refine these work rules in order to update the current needs of the newspaper production.
The unions many times operate in cooperation with management to achieve goals. I can’t help believing that the recent STOP THE BLADE campaign was to bring the public’s attention to the lack of readership at The Blade. The unions (especially The Guild) worked alongside the Blade’s management to attract the public’s attention to this decline. The whole mess was union/management inspired in order to gain back readers and hopefully subscribers to The Blade. However, the editorial staff (now with Tom Walton gone) needs to become more positive to the needs of the citizens of the Lake Erie West area.
As a former member of a union, I look back and have thoughts of regret that I did not realize the impact of my performance on others. I found myself in the middle of management and union goals. I lost my job and have been fighting for 12 years to replace that union job. The temporary agency jobs just haven’t cut the mustard. But, those companies that do not support union activity will continue to help the temporary employment industry thrive.
posted by billhaw at 10:38 A.M. EST on Fri Aug 03, 2007 #
How can you 'hate' unions? That is a very personal word for a specific incident or event.
I believe that your 'topic' is narrow-minded and devious at best.
Seems to me that the union has been a great asset to the middle class of America in its quest for upward mobility. Had Henry Ford and his thugs been successful in their anti-union busting techniques, our quality of like would be greatly diminished. Had Auto-lite been successful with its anti-union goons Toledo would have been like that Hollywood town of Pottersville. Had the Blade been successful with its lock-out of the unions, the Block family would reign as the monarchy in feudal times.
posted by Man_with_the_muck_rake at 10:38 A.M. EST on Fri Aug 03, 2007 #
billy: Something is not right here. The Sate of Ohio, recognizing that drug use by employees can substantially increase accidents and workmans' compensation claims, has very agressive and thorough protocals in place to aid employers in employment drug testing. The incentives for the employer are substantially reduced workmans' compensation premiums, up to 90% in selected cases. I am not talking about joining a compensation risk pool, which while also very beneficial, is a different program. Please have your brother contact the State of Ohio Bureau of Workmans Comp.
posted by holland at 10:46 A.M. EST on Fri Aug 03, 2007 #
The unions work for all, not just the individual.
did you catch the part where they threatened his family? that's ok with you?
How can you 'hate' unions? That is a very personal word for a specific incident or event.
I believe it wasnt from "A" specific incident, but rather from SEVERAL incidents, past and ongoing that formed my opinion. I make no apologies - I form my opinions from personal experiences. I also question those who dont.
posted by billy at 10:47 A.M. EST on Fri Aug 03, 2007 #
did you catch the part where they threatened his family? that's ok with you?
Been there, done that. I don't live my life in fear of others.
posted by billhaw at 10:58 A.M. EST on Fri Aug 03, 2007 #
Holland - my bro in law's business is not located in Ohio.
posted by billy at 10:59 A.M. EST on Fri Aug 03, 2007 #
I lost my job and have been fighting for 12 years to replace that union job. The temporary agency jobs just haven’t cut the mustard. But, those companies that do not support union activity will continue to help the temporary employment industry thrive.
and in 12 years have you sought to educate yourself or do other things to make yourself more hireable?
posted by billy at 11:21 A.M. EST on Fri Aug 03, 2007 #
Billy, I am going to agree with most of what you had to say.
Here are some generalizations, based on my personal experience, which I am sure someone will come back and shred, along with copy and paste proof from the first google search that returned a favorable argument. People are greedy, hence the need for unions. Ownership and management, out of human nature, will pay laborers as little as they can get away with.
On the other side, I do not believe that people are inherently lazy. The laziness has been passed on by generations of americans who made too much money, and had too much job security, and therefore no incentive to achieve.
The big three UAW jobs are probably the worst case scenario. Every one I know employed through Jeep, GM, or Ford has bragged to me at one point or another about how easy there job is, including watching movies while on the clock, getting high on the clock, sleeping etc... (note- I did have a neighbor who worked at the toledo Jeep plant, and claimed to have been abused. I should include that.) I have a friend who supervises at one area plant. He has told me plenty of stories, including one about a guy nodding off with a needle in his arm. (I should note that this incident was back in the eighties, when problems such as this one were more prevalent.) Obviously, I was not there to witness any of this, but I have heard all of these stories enough to believe them. The stories were probably exaggerated, sure, and I know there are plenty of good hard working UAW workers out there. They still make too much money in my opinion. I remember years ago, while working as a bartender, this guy did not think that I was giving him enough respect, so he asked me to come over so that he could show me his pay stub. He was a Chrysler truck driver. His ytd showed him on pace to make nearly six figures. He then explained to me that he was on overtime, while he sat at the bar for three hours eating and watching tv, waiting to unload the cars at the dealership across the street. OK, good for him, he should make a decent salary, but not nearly that much.
My other problem with the big three UAW jobs, is that they are not open to the public. Anyone I have known in the past twenty years to get a job at Jeep, Chrysler, or Ford, (atleast a couple dozen) had a father or other close relative in the union. So basically it's a private club as well.
I know the white collar guys have caused their share of problems too. When it comes to the devise of the U.S. auto industry, the blame should go all around, but that does not justify the high labor costs. You can't try to justify the problems with unions, by saying "Well management sucks too".
posted by nick44 at 11:31 A.M. EST on Fri Aug 03, 2007 #
Billy; very well written. I come from a long line of managers and execs. And I remember my step father receiving all kinds of threats from the union, and had his car trashed more than once. I have worked in and out of unions and found every union I was in promoted incompetence. As for their success for people in the 20's thru the 60's they were pretty valid, and helped both employees and businesses, but now all unions do is chase business away, and make businesses non competitive. I remember in the town I grew up in which was heavily union and had lots of factories, a company was on the verge of bankruptcy which was well known, and as the owners were meeting with bankers to stall off closing up, the union voted to strike because the new contract did not have high enough pay increases (although it did have some)needles to say when they voted to strike the bankers also walked and the business closed down. There are almost no factories or union jobs at all in my home town now. I actually think that as the last auto factory in the US under a union contract closes down, I will hear that the Union is going on strike.
posted by roygbiv at 12:26 P.M. EST on Fri Aug 03, 2007 #
Nick44, I am pro-union, but i agree with you 100%. I remember reading an article where a uaw worker said there was no way he could live off of $22 an hour. (i think it was delphi or something like that, i've mentioned it before) Its just when UAW people complain that they dont make enough money or they have to pay a portion of their insurance, or when they say "you dont know what its like to be in my shoes" it makes BUT i could name 10 people off the top of my head, myself included, who would love to have that problem.
posted by tm at 12:32 P.M. EST on Fri Aug 03, 2007 #
My Dad lost his trucking business to union vandalism in the mid 50's. I vividly remember wakeing up to one of the rigs parked in our home driveway engulfed in flames. He started a new career with a wife and two small kids to support and debts. I am no fan of unions. I worked for a grocery store as a bookkeeper in the early 80's that unsuccessfully tried to uionize. Union sympathisizers would loosen the caps on the bleach bottles. I can't objectively speak about my Dad as to how he treated his employees. I was just a little kid. But I was an adult during the grocery store union attempt. Management brought it upon themselves. They lied and they intimidated. They were abusive. It was a real eye opener. There's no redemption on eihter side. But for criminality, the unions win hands down.
posted by holland at 01:39 P.M. EST on Fri Aug 03, 2007 #
My father-in-law is a union member. One of his first days on a new job, he dropped a piece of trash on the floor while standing and talking w/someone (not while operating a machine or anything like that...just standing and having a conversation).
Like any reasonable, normal human being would instinctively do, he bent over to pick it up and throw it in the trash can just a few feet away from him. His manager stopped him and told him that he couldn't do that...it was someone else's job, and he'd get in trouble with the union if he picked up a piece of paper that he himself dropped and threw it in the trash. At first he thought the guy was joking, but he honestly had to leave a piece of trash on the floor until the person who's union protected job it was to pick up scraps came along to pick it up and throw it away.
I could give you a dozen similar stories of my own from the time I got stuck working in a union job. (Part time in college at a grocery store...didn't realize there was a union I'd be forced to join until after I had already agreed to accept the job.)
This is the biggest problem I have with unions - all the wastefulness on the job. I too have known people who have been told not to work so hard b/c they make the other guys on the job "look bad." God forbid anyone would want to perform to the best of their abilities these days...no, no, let's just force the good guys to slack off a little so that we all appear evenly matched. All these increased costs due to wastefulness are getting passed on to us as the consumer.
posted by mom2 at 02:04 P.M. EST on Fri Aug 03, 2007 #
Perhaps you just hate human nature. There are abuses of power/privilege/etc. going on all the time. To single out unions would be narrow minded.
Surely you're not obtuse enough to not hear stories of non-union/profesionals/managers screwing around? Did all your dads problems/abuses magically go away when he disassociated himself with them meanies in the union? I bet he traded one set of problems for another.
Most professions are de facto unions, including management. They all screw around, protect their turf through uncivil means, etc.
White collar crime/abuse is more pervasive and accepted in our society. Why it is not looked on with the same amount of disdain as blue collar crap is unknown....
posted by charlatan at 02:21 P.M. EST on Fri Aug 03, 2007 #
Well i guess thats why i am pro-union, the union im with isnt like that at all. All they care about is getting our members work and making sure they are safe on the job. I guess it really is as simple as some are good, some aren't. I just get angry when people bash ALL of the unions, i can totally understand bashing the ones where personal experiences come into play.
posted by tm at 02:25 P.M. EST on Fri Aug 03, 2007 #
I've known many people in my life. Used to work with an older fellow , who I'm sure is dead now, whose son was in his early thirties and still lived at home. He (the son)was white-collar, and despsed unions, and felt they should all be busted. Meanwhile, his Father's good-paying union job had paid for his college education, and enabled him to live a life free of physical labor-i.e. a life better than his parents had. I would have thrown the ungrateful little prick out on the street myself, but I'm just saying there are many sides to things.
posted by Darkseid at 03:01 P.M. EST on Fri Aug 03, 2007 #
Yes, it is wrong to generalize either way. Saying that all unions are bad is the same as saying that all corporations are bad. I think there are plenty of unions and union workers who work hard and do a good job just as there are plenty of corporations who treat their employees decently. Unfortunately, it is usually the bad examples from each side that get the most publicity.
Also, in order to fix the problems with unions or corporations, you must look at the historical reasons they developed. In the late 19th and early 20th century, there were a number of abuses and problems among companies that were terrible. For example there was the Triangle Shirt Company fire. Employees were forced to work in unsafe, unhealthy and dangerous conditions. They were locked in and a fire killed most of the workers, that is those who did not jump to their deaths.
Also, the consensu of reputable historians such as Arthur Schlesinger Jr., as well as many conservative historians, such as Newt Gingrich, (yes, he is an historian by trade), is that workers, unions and union rights needed shoring up during the earlier half of this century in order to provide for a more stable, equitable, prosperous and generally better society. Even Reagan and Bush agreed that FDR and the New Deal, ( a program that tremendously advanced unions and workers' rights), were needed for their times. To a large extent, ONE of the problems contributing to the Great Depression of the 1930s was a terribly unbalanced distribution of wealth. This inbalance, along with other factors, contributed to the stall of the economy much as a plane climbing at too steep of an angle. Also, it could be compared to a game of Monopoly where one player owns Boardwalk and Park Place and everyone else owns just one or two of the other properties. The result is extreme imbalance. Anyway, the movement to strengthen unions was meant to correct these imbalances and the idea was not just to benefit workers, but to help the economy as a whole. Even Eisenhower accepted their necessity.
Anyway, the conclusion is that the real probelm is not evil corporations or evil unions, both have problems and a balance and tension is needed. We should not generalize either way.
posted by ilovetoledo at 03:06 P.M. EST on Fri Aug 03, 2007 #
"The whole mess was union/management inspired in order to gain back readers and hopefully subscribers to The Blade."
Actually it was inspired by alien life forms attempting to move into mass communication services to subjugate earthlings - starting with the most intelligent and wise - -- those in Toledo. OH.
-- bwahahahahahaahh! See, comrades! The Toledoans will NEVER guess our plans! -- Oh! I mean Gee, we should all fight those body-snatching, Toledo-attacking aliens!
posted by paulhem at 03:34 P.M. EST on Fri Aug 03, 2007 #
Paul:
Have a good weekend and sleep tight don't let the bedbugs bite! They might be aliens.
posted by billhaw at 06:03 P.M. EST on Fri Aug 03, 2007 #
Did all your dads problems/abuses magically go away when he disassociated himself with them meanies in the union?
Of course not - nor did I ever insinuate that. He never again tho, nor have I, experienced the insanity of being chastised for working too hard. That's 100% spoon fed union brainwashing.
Union guys - how do you feel about the concept of merit raises??
Have you ever gotten a raise based on your own effort, and not just a raise that went to the entire rank and file? And Im not talking about one that comes after completing 90 days, or some training course, Im talking about a true merit raise that comes from you stepping up and raising the bar on your own performance?
If not, you're really missing out.
posted by billy at 07:58 A.M. EST on Sat Aug 04, 2007 #
Amazing, I've been a union member for 30 years and have never witnessed any of the extreme scenario's listed here.
posted by JeepMaker at 06:16 P.M. EST on Sat Aug 04, 2007 #
Let me tell you something concerning the "work slower" thing.
First a question; Do you think someone should be penalized for being good at their job?
Because it happens, often. When you do a certain job over and over for a long period of time, you become somewhat of an efficiency expert.
Through muscle memory, and experience you get where you can do the job in less time than the average person would.
At the old plant, it was very common in the body shop that when a regular worker was absent, it would take two people to replace that worker in order to keep up.
So, the company industrial engineer, also called a time study would add work to the guys who were best at their jobs. Every job has what is called a "man assignment". It is a detailed description of the particular job and each step it takes to complete the job with the time it supposedly takes to do each step.
I have had jobs at the old plant that were timed down to less than a minute of available time in an 8 hour day. Heaven forbid you should have to sneeze or something.
It's a classic example of the more you give the more they want.
posted by JeepMaker at 06:56 P.M. EST on Sat Aug 04, 2007 #
Yes, Jeepmaker, I likewise have been a UAW member for (almost) 30 years and have never seen such abuses like those described here. I have, however, heard stories like these. I think some of these stories have "grown legs" over the years and some people just take everything they hear as the gospel truth. People, if it sounds incredibly far-fetched and smelling of B.S., that's probably just what it is. I mean c'mon..."Stop working so hard or we'll kick your ass"?!?! or "Don't bend over and pick up that wrapper you just dropped"!?!? Do you REALLY think the Unions function like this? Sounds like some folks are just looking for a reason to go off against organized labor.
And NICK, in the old days it's true...you DID have to know someone to get hired at Jeep. The place was chock-full of father-son tandems. But we had far less problems with people not pulling their weight in those days. If a kid was being lazy they would call his Dad in a nearby department and he would come down and straighten the kid out, by the boot if necessary. We don't have that luxury nowadays and some of us suffer for it. Those of us who DO work sometimes get tired of carrying an otherwise able-bodied (but LAZY) young person.
posted by Catharsis at 07:22 P.M. EST on Sat Aug 04, 2007 #
I've been a union member for 30 years and have never witnessed any of the extreme scenario's listed here.
Sure Jeepbm, sure you havent. Is the Jeep Euchre tourney still going on??
I know guys who laugh and tell stories how they needed a ride home from a new years shift where it was pretty much byob. Needed a ride home from WORK where they got too wasted making triple time. But as I said before, I know my own experiences, and your thoughts are of little consequence to me.
Do you REALLY think the Unions function like this?
Seeing as how my scenarios come from ME, and my own family, Fuck yes I believe it - you're a cyber poster - I should take your word over what Ive seen personally?
The union plants I deal with have to drop their production rate from 7-11% because of the lazy union employees they have compared to the non u nion plants. Sorry, but that's my day to day life and that's the way it is.
posted by billy at 07:08 A.M. EST on Sun Aug 05, 2007 #
If a kid was being lazy they would call his Dad in a nearby department and he would come down and straighten the kid out, by the boot if necessary.
I have never heard of this before- makes sense.
posted by nick44 at 10:03 P.M. EST on Sun Aug 05, 2007 #
Have you ever gotten a raise based on your own effort, and not just a raise that went to the entire rank and file? And Im not talking about one that comes after completing 90 days, or some training course, Im talking about a true merit raise that comes from you stepping up and raising the bar on your own performance?
Ha, the company i worked for gave me $.50 after i learned how to run the entire department. But that was only after i found a male co-worker with less time in and less job responsibilities was makeing a dollar more than me and i had to threaten discrimination.
posted by tm at 07:05 A.M. EST on Mon Aug 06, 2007 #
Hi billy, How’s the kool-aid tasting lately? I must have really rattled your little bamboo cage for you to be ranting about unions the way you are! You are mistakenly referring to Jeepmaker and I as the same person. You may believe this, but it is false. This serves as further proof of your own apparent tendency to jumping to false conclusions. There may indeed be more than a few names belonging to one single poster here on Toledo Talk, those would be Eyeswideshut, Union Wanted, Deep Throat, and possibly (one-of thousands) as well. This person may have attempted to deceive everyone on ToledoTalk by using multiple screen names. I wonder what other methods or incidents may have been chosen to lead people astray in pursuit of a political agenda! I haven’t seen any of these multiple and yet also (singular) personalities in quite a while!
Sure Jeepbm, sure you havent. Is the Jeep Euchre tourney still going on??
I know guys who laugh and tell stories how they needed a ride home from a new years shift where it was pretty much byob. Needed a ride home from WORK where they got too wasted making triple time. But as I said before, I know my own experiences, and your thoughts are of little consequence to me.
This is my first comment on this thread. 1. I am not (Jeepmaker) 2. I will have been there (Jeep) 24 years in October and I have never worked any New Years shift. We are always shut down over New Years. 3.Your unorganized and sloppy writing is apparently of little consequence to yourself as well.
Fuck yes I believe it - you're a cyber poster - I should take your word over what Ive seen personally?
I doubt if anyone is taking your word seriously either billy. Maybe you and eyeswideshut could get together and trade lies, rumor, innuendo, and vague allegations of wrongdoing, backed up with , (you guessed it, Nada FT, a.k.a. nothing)!!
I cant speak for any one else, but my opinions are forged by personal experience by me and my family members. There are a lot of folks out here like Jeepbm who take exception to my issues with unions, not that I really care, but at least let me take the time to explain how I came to feel this way - seeing as how both my parents were union members:
This is a contradictory statement containing multiple contradictions, in fact, starting with your statement of not speaking for others after you have done so on your previous thread, you also again falsely implied that someone had or possessed my screen name as well as their own. If you didn’t really care you would not have spent three days composing this supposed comeback letter, a letter riddled with inconsistencies and vague references to possibly un-provable events in a hazy past, rife with innuendo and hearsay!
posted by Bbcmjeep43 at 04:20 P.M. EST on Tue Aug 07, 2007 #
From reading all the posts in this thread I believe that ilovetoledo makes the most sense.I also believe billy has his head square up his you know what!From billy's rant you could conclude that;
a)Union workers are lazy.
b)Union workers are ignorant.
c)Union workers are greedy.
I say to you billy that you must have had your lunch money taken from away from you by a bad ass union worker.Why else would you have so much hate and intolerance towards union employees.You made some pretty broad and sweepping statements about unions.This is just one of your dumb ass statements;
"The union plants I deal with have to drop their production rate from 7-11% because of the lazy union employees they have compared to the non u nion plants."
I have been involved or worked for over thirty years with both management and union jobs and I can say I have never seen or worked at a place where they would slow down a line or an operation because of lazy union employees.These lines or operations that I have experienced over the years have always been run at close to or above max operating speed.The emloyee working on those lines must keep up or his or her job would be on the chopping block.Billy, not everybody's experiences are the same as yours, so don't place every union worker in the same category as being lazy,ignorant and greedy.I have plenty of stories about management and how they screw off and how they receive much more in compensation than does a union employee.Why doesn't anybody ever complain about how many perks a management person receives.I remember several times when our plant was run entirely by union employees while the management was off sucking ass on the golf course with the big wigs.Other times it would be fishing trips on lake erie where they would leave the plant for the whole day.These events were not on the weekends but during the workweek.
Now here is the best statements that I have read on this thread and they are by ilovetoledo.
"It is really all a problem with people. Neither workers nor management are perfect, however they need each other and they need to balance and share both responsibility and power."
"Anyway, the conclusion is that the real probelm is not evil corporations or evil unions, both have problems and a balance and tension is needed. We should not generalize either way."
Well said ilovetoledo!
posted by buckeye277 at 08:28 P.M. EST on Tue Aug 07, 2007 #
Thanks for the laughs guys! Believe what you want. I'll keep believing the truth. I'll also vote anti union whenever and where ever I can.
Take care, Im switching to the new version now.
posted by billy at 06:50 A.M. EST on Wed Aug 08, 2007 #
Syndicate ToledoTalk
