Well, I guess all the ACLU bashers who go on about how the ACLU is a pile of pinko commie liberal anti-Christians will have to shut up and eat it.
How so? This self-proclaimed Christian church isn't anything that I'd ever support, nor would any of my friends or family. I doubt that you could find anyone on Toledo Talk who would support it.
posted by madjack at 09:13 A.M. EST on Mon Jul 24, 2006 #
I think what AC is saying, is that normally the ACLU is proclaimed to be left-leaning. When in this instance, they are backing up the church's right to free speech even when their message is anti-homosexuality.
posted by pink_slip at 09:34 A.M. EST on Mon Jul 24, 2006 #
Personally, i don't like the idea of protesting ANYTHING at funerals. In my opinion, its just plain ole disrespectful! Just like when you see a funeral procession driving by and you have an idiot that cant wait 2 minutes for it to pass so it speeds in between. Drives me nuts.
posted by tm at 09:39 A.M. EST on Mon Jul 24, 2006 #
These are not right wingers! They are LEFT WINGERS!
I have heard the following from other sources as well, both left and right leaning.
From Wikipedia:
Phelps has failed in numerous Democratic primary elections for governor of the overwhelmingly Republican state of Kansas, in 1990, 1994, and the last time in 1998, when he came in second with 15,000 votes out of a total of over 103,000 votes cast, or 15%
Also, as a Southern Baptist, these people do NOT represent me or anyone else! They are simply using the name. These people make me sick! Literally, I feel sick when I see this lady and hear her spew her hatred.
Check her out on Hannity & Colmes. Colmes really tells her how it is.
posted by fequalsma73 at 12:20 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 24, 2006 #
A Christian lives his life in the way that Christ would. I didn't see Christ protesting at Zacarius' Funeral.
This church is just trying to get some sensationalistic publicity.
posted by MikeyA at 12:21 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 24, 2006 #
These people may be calling their organization a church - but their behavior flies in the face of the teachings of Christianity. It is said you will know they are Christians by their love.
???What's hard to comprehend about this???
Just another case of the ACLU rubbing it's sticky little thighs together and salivating over the idea of these people making the families of soldiers shed more tears and be even more upset at their loved ones' funerals.
No question about it.
posted by katie82640 at 12:22 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 24, 2006 #
Sigh...While of course the ACLU is one of the groups many people love to hate...I'd point out the following cases:
http://www.aclu.org/freespeech/gen/10925prs20020108.html?ht=christmas%20christmas
BOSTON--The American Civil Liberties Union of Massachusetts and a local attorney today filed a First Amendment lawsuit against the Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority (MBTA) for removing subway advertisements promoting the views of a local church and refusing to sell additional advertising space to the church.
http://www.aclu.org/religion/frb/16347prs20040811.html
LINCOLN --The American Civil Liberties Union of Nebraska today announced that it would defend a Presbyterian church from a forced eviction by the city.
and among the many other cases out there, one I found particularly interesting:
http://www.aclu.org/religion/govtfunding/22354prs20051206.html
Twenty-three-year-old Joseph Hanas of Genesee County pled guilty in the Genesee Circuit Court to a charge of marijuana possession in February 2001. He was placed in a “drug court” for non-violent offenders, allowing for a deferred sentence and dismissal of the charges if he successfully completed the Inner City Christian Outreach Residential Program.
Unbeknownst to Hanas when he entered the program, one of the goals of Christian Outreach was to convert him from Catholicism to the Pentecostal faith. He was forced to read the bible for seven hours a day and was tested on Pentecostal principles. The staff also told him that Catholicism was a form of witchcraft and they confiscated both his rosary and Holy Communion prayer book. At one point, the program director told his aunt that he “gave up his right of freedom of religion when he was placed into this program.” Hanas was told that in order to complete the program successfully he would have to proclaim his salvation at the altar and was threatened that if he did not do what the pastor told him to do, he would be “washed of the program and go to prison.”
Do I agree with everything the ACLU does? No, but I do acknowledge that they will stand up for those who feel their rights were vioated. Even if public opinion doesn't seem to feel that particular group should matter.
posted by psyche777 at 12:57 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 24, 2006 #
The ACLU was founded by Roger Baldwin, Crystal Eastman, Albert DeSilver and others in 1920. (This is off their website here: http://www.aclu.org/about/index.html)
Like many other organizations that started out with altruistic intentions, over time things have gotten away from the original mission, which was to protect ALL civil liberties, at all places. One of the predominant causes was the right to privacy. The right to meet, hold ceremonies, such as funerals, in private - in most of the cases on private property. As a civil liberty.
Now we have this single case in which the right of the family to have a private service is something the ACLU will not protect. Rather, they wish to protect federally condemned hate speech in the forum of a family holding a funeral.
Seems like something's gone wrong since the ACLU's founder's intentions are no longer on the agenda.
The FIRST thing Albert or Crystal would have said upon looking at this case was that they clearly and primarily see a right for a family to hold a private funeral service.
Then they would look at the rights of the objectors to see if their right to free speech could be used, on private property to interfere with an established civil liberty. They'd have said no.
Based upon this filing this 'religious' group could come into your yard, your office or your church and say you were - well fill in all the filthy things they say here - and you'd be helpless to stop them.
posted by katie82640 at 01:14 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 24, 2006 #
AMAZING! LOOK AT THE RIGHT-WINGERS BASH THE ACLU FOR PROTECTING THE FREE SPEECH RIGHTS OF AN ULTRA-RIGHT-WING FUNDIE GROUP!
posted by anonymouscoward at 01:37 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 24, 2006 #
AMAZING! LOOK AT THE RIGHT-WINGERS BASH THE ACLU FOR PROTECTING THE FREE SPEECH RIGHTS OF AN ULTRA-RIGHT-WING FUNDIE GROUP!
At least they can use the shift key.
posted by thenick at 02:05 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 24, 2006 #
Why do you all hate free speech?
posted by anonymouscoward at 02:38 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 24, 2006 #
I think what AC is saying, is that normally the ACLU is proclaimed to be left-leaning. When in this instance, they are backing up the church's right to free speech even when their message is anti-homosexuality.
More like, certain people here claim that the ACLU only defends liberals and liberal causes, and that's just not true, given that they're defending, if you can believe it, the right of a group of right-wing fag-hating fundies to engage in free speech by protesting at funerals.
You may not agree with the right-wing fag-hating fundies and their choice of venues for expressing themselves, but they do have that right, and crafting legislation that specifically bans them begs the question of what speech we'll ban next because we don't like it. I personally hope that the next time the right-wing fag-hating fundies are out protesting, the earth cracks open under them and they are all swallowed into Hell, but until then, they have the right to free speech. If you don't like their disrespectful speech, ignore it or piss 'em off of hope they all drop dead so you can get some turnabout at their funerals.
In the meantime, the next person who bashes the ACLU as being a pile of evil liberals that only support liberal causes gets a boot right in the crotch from me. Unless, of course, that you want to argue that "free speech" is a liberal cause, in which case restricting/banning speech is a conservative cause... oh that'll be a fun discussion.
posted by anonymouscoward at 02:50 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 24, 2006 #
From the ACLU:
The ACLU is fully engaged in defending a broad range of constitutional rights, including
rights related to freedom of religion and belief. It is sometimes wrongly imagined that the ACLU does not vigorously protect rights of freedom of religion, particularly of Christians.
The following recent cases illustrate just how wrong these misconceptions are. Although the
cases listed below are under the categories of “Christians” and “non-Christian” (representing the religious beliefs of those who were defended), constitutional rights belong to everyone and not only to people of particular religious faiths. The ACLU is also proud of its work defending the rights of everyone by ensuring that the Establishment Clause is fully respected.
They then go on to list quite a few cases, a few of the ones I listed above but more...
http://www.acluutah.org/religiousfreedom.pdf
As I said, I don't agree with them on everything yet, I don't have to. They do represent people who without them would probably not have the ability to fight what they feel is an injustice.
posted by psyche777 at 04:15 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 24, 2006 #
I have heard of the Patriot Guard. The ones who shield the families and friends of the fallen. For the Westboro Church members. I would think of a way to stop them, legally, and forward that to the people who would be most interested in that procedure. I'm sure there would be a very effective way to stop these idiots. They aren't all that bright. Maybe now it's time to create some stress for them!
How about a funeral that is not held the stated day, and has two sets of invitations. The real ones, and the ones the Westboro Church get's ahold of from the newspapers. Then you arrange a crowd of counter protesters with bullhorns and piercing whistles. You surround these assholes, and give them a really hard time. Free speech works both ways.
posted by Bbcmjeep43 at 04:16 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 24, 2006 #
http://www.aegis.com/news/wb/2006/WB060503.html
This article was also interesting since it goes into some detail that wasn't covered in the original article:
Dan Pinello, a City University of New York government professor and author of "Gay Rights & American Law," said the case deserves to be heard.
"The ACLU and other civil rights groups have most notably represented people who are out of the mainstream, whether it be criminal defendants or unpopular groups," he said. "We have the right in this country to legal representation."
posted by psyche777 at 04:20 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 24, 2006 #
Most times there have been more counter-protestors who are in support of the family than there have been Phelps supporters.
posted by psyche777 at 04:23 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 24, 2006 #
AMAZING! LOOK AT THE RIGHT-WINGERS BASH THE ACLU FOR PROTECTING THE FREE SPEECH RIGHTS OF AN ULTRA-RIGHT-WING FUNDIE GROUP!
How are they right wing? One of their leaders ran for office as a Demoncrat...3 TIMES!
I don't hate free speech, but you make me wonder why I don't.
I am not going to post anymore on this because AC just lies all day. When you want to have an honest dialogue, look me up.
posted by fequalsma73 at 04:33 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 24, 2006 #
How are they right wing? One of their leaders ran for office as a Demoncrat...3 TIMES!
And I could go file to run as a Republican, so what?
posted by anonymouscoward at 04:44 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 24, 2006 #
Lisa... do you have keyboard indentations on your forehead again? ;) Just don't give yourself a concussion.
posted by valbee at 05:47 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 24, 2006 #
hehehe - no but I did grab some Advil.
:-)
posted by psyche777 at 06:20 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 24, 2006 #
From the article {The church and the Rev. Fred Phelps claim God is allowing soldiers, coal miners and others to be killed because the United States tolerates homosexuals.}
*****************************************
God is ALLOWING them to be killed????? Another fine example of why I am against the church, religion, etc. So much hate, so many killings, in the name of God, or somebody's idea of what that may be - sad.
At any rate - Free speech has nothing at all to do with this I don't think. It has everything to do with the fact that it is simply poor taste to cause disruptions at a funeral, or spew hate at one. Any church that condones behaviour at a funeral like that - should not be allowed to preach.
posted by starling02 at 07:16 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 24, 2006 #
And I could go file to run as a Republican, so what?
Go for it! Carty ran as a republican once too! HE's never had a real job either!
posted by billy at 07:41 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 24, 2006 #
Q: Where can I find a list of second amendment cases that the ACLU has been involved in?
posted by madjack at 07:55 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 24, 2006 #
Q: Where can I find a list of second amendment cases that the ACLU has been involved in?
A: Contact the ACLU for that information. (DUH!)
posted by anonymouscoward at 08:15 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 24, 2006 #
http://www.aclu.org/police/gen/14523res20020304.html
Which I'd hazzard a guess you already know the answer to that question especially since it's one of the primary points of Stop the ACLU. I'd ask if you are aware of how many cases have come before the Supreme Court that are 2nd amendment related in comparison to the Establishment Clause or Free Speech. Here's a hint...
http://www.guncite.com/gc2ndsup.html
They have taken a guns right case on Fourth Amendment rights...
http://www.keepandbeararms.com/news/nl/post_comments.asp?nl=184396680186&tmpD=9%2F8%2F2001
:-)
posted by psyche777 at 08:30 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 24, 2006 #
"How are they right wing? One of their leaders ran for office as a Demoncrat...3 TIMES!"----earlier post.
fequalsma73, Zell Miller was a democrat, too. There have been several instances over the years where someone's political party didn't match up with their philosophical viewpoints.
I'm not saying this is the case here; I don't know anything about this group other that what's been posted here. Just saying it's possible.
posted by McCaskey at 08:41 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 24, 2006 #
Amazing how the gun nuts ignore that part that says "well-regulated militia" in the Second Amendment.
posted by anonymouscoward at 08:42 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 24, 2006 #
True McCaskey - Merrill Keiser ran against Sherrod Brown as a Democrat and he had some "interesting" beliefs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merrill_Keiser
Keiser called creationism "true" and endorses its teaching over evolution. Keiser says school children should be "taught to pray" and that "liberals" have spent too long worshipping the "god of Reason". Keiser is in favor of de-funding and total U.S. withdrawal from the United Nations. He has also said that he would not oppose making homosexuality a crime punishable by death for the overall spiritual and moral health of society, although he, himself, would not introduce such legislation.
posted by psyche777 at 08:46 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 24, 2006 #
Yep, psyche, that would be a prime example...
posted by McCaskey at 11:13 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 24, 2006 #
There have been several instances over the years where someone's political party didn't match up with their philosophical viewpoints.
I'm not saying this is the case here; I don't know anything about this group other that what's been posted here
So based on the info we have - the fact that this group represents NEITHER party's viewpoints, and that the leader has run for office under democrat, can we really assume that the group is right winged? Which party has had representatives protesting at previous funerals? (which is an abomination, by the way)
the KKK gets labled as right wing all the time as well, but look at our congressmen. Which party is represented by former Klansmen?
posted by billy at 05:29 A.M. EST on Tue Jul 25, 2006 #
Which party is represented by former Klansmen?
The moonbats.
posted by madjack at 07:03 A.M. EST on Tue Jul 25, 2006 #
AC my well regulated militia is my family and if any more looting or rioting occurs in Toledo we will be a well armed well regulated militia ready to defend our private property and safety.
I have never dismissed the ACLU as left wing nuts or anything like that but I do say that the type of country they want is not the one I want.
As for this group they are P.O.S.'s they are only protesting for the sensationalistic publicity and their protests should be regulated as funerals are sacred and very personal and should remain private.
As for the KKK being right wing I still don't get that. The most public figure from the KKK that I know of is Sen. Byrd (D, WV) and he is as left as you can get without spraypainting gas kills trees on an SUV while wearing a tyed eye shirt with Che Guerrera's likeness on the back.
For the record I support gay marriage as long as both chicks are hot!
posted by MikeyA at 09:52 A.M. EST on Tue Jul 25, 2006 #
Also today there was a woman on the news who is suing a group who printed a shirt that read "Bush Lied, They Died" with names of fallen soldiers on it. Her son was a name of one of the fallen.
As a marine and a brother of a marine I can say that I never minded the protestors until they crossed the line. I think that this is a clear indication of crossing the line. To earn a profit and spread a particular message using the name of a person who has not given permission for their likeness is just wrong. IMO this action was as dispicable as the group protesting the funerals.
Protest is one thing but disrespect to an individuals right to privacy is another.
posted by MikeyA at 09:58 A.M. EST on Tue Jul 25, 2006 #
The Westboro Baptist Church (whose website is godhatesfags.com) is so off-the-wall extreme I don't know what hell category they fall into.
I think its fair to say, from an historical viewpoint, Liberals/Progessives and others with left-leaning outlooks have been more tolerant of homosexual causes such as gay-marriage and measures that protect gays from discrimination, etc. than right-wingers.
I suppose in my opinion this group is right-wing, but so extreme in their thnking that they don't represent the feelings and beliefs of 99% of those who consider themselves right-wingers.
I think the bottom line is this: these people are so hate-filled, so disrespectful to others who have suffered personal losses and so off-the-chart extreme that I could envision a band of liberals, conservatives, Republicans, Democrats, middle-of-the roaders, joining forces to shield mourning families from these assholes at their loved-ones' funerals.
And I would hope the ACLU would defend our right to do THAT.
posted by McCaskey at 11:12 A.M. EST on Tue Jul 25, 2006 #
"I don't know what hell category"--above
Meant to type WHAT the hell.
posted by McCaskey at 11:29 A.M. EST on Tue Jul 25, 2006 #
"ACLU= American,communists,liberal,union!LOL!
posted by buckeye277 at 01:16 P.M. EST on Tue Jul 25, 2006 #
Anti Christian Liberal Union
posted by fequalsma73 at 01:43 P.M. EST on Tue Jul 25, 2006 #
To earn a profit and spread a particular message using the name of a person who has not given permission for their likeness is just wrong.
1) Births and deaths are public records.
2) This is the Constitutional free speech you and your brother served to defend.
3) If the Blade or any other news outlet recited the names of the dead in Iraq and Afghanistan, would there be a lawsuit? After all, the Blade makes a profit, Nightline makes a profit (from advertising/commercial space), etc. and for both the attention they get from such stunts furthers their agendas. How about if Dubya uses their names in a speech that someone doesn't like? Should Dubya be sued?
4) Dead people don't have rights. "I am a strong supporter of the First Amendment, the Fourth Amendment and civil liberties. But you have no civil liberties if you are dead." -- Sen. Pat Roberts, (R) KS
5) And there's hundreds of databases with your name, address, credit rating, purchase history, etc. all over the USA, and they violate your "right to privacy" and the owners make profits selling your name and so on to other people who use that information to make a profit by selling crap to you. And these companies (not PEOPLE, but CORPORATIONS) claim their rights to free speech are infringed by antispam and do-not-call and other privacy legislation. I'd rather my name or a dead soldier's name be used by people for political speech than be used by a corporation for promotion or being a potential customer to sell vinyl siding or patriotic teddy bears to.
posted by anonymouscoward at 01:52 P.M. EST on Tue Jul 25, 2006 #
AC must be bored today.
posted by tm at 02:04 P.M. EST on Tue Jul 25, 2006 #
McCaskey - well said!
posted by MaggieThurber at 02:06 P.M. EST on Tue Jul 25, 2006 #
I think it's amazing that so many want to call this is a Christian organization even though factually it could not be. They couldn't be followers of Christ. So if they showed up at these funerals and claimed to be ducks ---???? What the hell....
If you are interested there is a local group of Patriot Riders that show up to support families when gay bashers show up at military funerals. I'd think anybody with the intelligence of - oh say a grapefruit - would have to realize these aren't anything but gay bashers
If you're interested here's the site. I belong - even though I don't ride - you can help organize and show up at local funerals.
http://patriotguard.org/
posted by katie82640 at 02:25 P.M. EST on Tue Jul 25, 2006 #
Sorry - that's the national link. You have to go to Ohio and sign up, if you're interested - from that site. Then they put you in touch with the closest group.
posted by katie82640 at 02:25 P.M. EST on Tue Jul 25, 2006 #
Maggie Thurber--thanks.
Certain issues go beyond party lines and political viewpoints.
Mostly the issues that deal with human decency.
posted by McCaskey at 02:37 P.M. EST on Tue Jul 25, 2006 #
katie--I signned up to be one, too. Now what?
posted by fequalsma73 at 03:20 P.M. EST on Tue Jul 25, 2006 #
You'll get an email in - hmm don't remember. Within a few days to a week? You'll get the name of the chapter leader, phone numbers etc.
They'll ask you if you want to be on the email list. If you say yes, when they get word that a soldier has died - you'll get an email telling you when and where the funeral is. It's up to you IF you can go or not. You aren't obligated to go.
But it's a fantastic thing - the families say that it helps alot - particularly when those gay bashers show up. You'd think they'd show up where they would expect to find gay people if they hate them so much. Gay pride parade or something, instead of soldiers funerals.
The last one I went to was a young father. Really, really, really, really sad. He left a wife, two little boys and parents.
posted by katie82640 at 03:23 P.M. EST on Tue Jul 25, 2006 #
and remember - you don't have to own a motorcycle to help!
posted by katie82640 at 03:24 P.M. EST on Tue Jul 25, 2006 #
ACLU=All Communists Love Us
posted by Darkseid at 11:24 P.M. EST on Tue Jul 25, 2006 #
Aside from the blatant trolling going on here...
... I note how the right-wingers are all "they're not Christians" and "they're not right-wing"... distancing yourselves from the extreme end of your faith and party, are we?
And I must say, I absolutely LOVE how many supposedly tolerant people are all intolernant of the motives/methods/means of the WBC.
Nobody says free speech has to be tasteful or respectful. If you don't like it, tough. Who made you folks arbiters of taste, anyhow?
posted by anonymouscoward at 12:05 A.M. EST on Wed Jul 26, 2006 #
AC - having a right to speak freely does not ensure a right to have people listen to you - nor a right to have no one object to the content of what you say.
BTW - I find it interesting that your defined "right-wingers" have no problem criticizing groups who do ridiculous things. Don't recall seeing that from those "left-wingers"....
posted by MaggieThurber at 05:45 A.M. EST on Wed Jul 26, 2006 #
having a right to speak freely does not ensure a right to have people listen to you - nor a right to have no one object to the content of what you say.
Maggie, i like that! Very well said. 8-)
posted by tm at 07:29 A.M. EST on Wed Jul 26, 2006 #
AC - having a right to speak freely does not ensure a right to have people listen to you - nor a right to have no one object to the content of what you say.
Yeah, good job Maggie.
AC, you're up way past your bedtime. Now run along like a good little troll and maybe Uncle Jack will tell you a nice bedtime story.
posted by madjack at 08:19 A.M. EST on Wed Jul 26, 2006 #
Anoxious Coward - Its funny how you take that bunch of nut jobs and immediately associate them with right wingers - even tho the only info you have to their party affiliation points squarely toward the democrats!! YOU then poo poo'd that info!
Lets take another example - Goth night at BG - they recently hired a young lady who worked her way thru college (something you might consider) as a bartender for three years in the Uptown/Downtown bar combo (ring any bells?) She said she LOVED Goth nights because the tips were great. The reason she said was, and I quote, "I guess for that issue, the stereotype is true - gays really DO have more disposable income!!"
So, here we have someone who paints his fingernails, puts on eye makeup, talks about how he uses the sewing machine to stitch up a cute little outfit, then attends a function where the staff says has a large gay turnout. Are we to assume that person is gay just as you assume the idiots protesting at a funeral were right wingers despite evidence to the contrary?
posted by billy at 09:40 A.M. EST on Wed Jul 26, 2006 #
Actually AC I would rather a corporation use my name if I am dead. Why? Because people can boycott corporations. How do you boycott a political think tank? You can't all you can do is counterprotest and counterlobby.
In the case of military members your examples are moot. Mainly because military members cannot make political statements themselves.
Example. When I was on active duty I could attend a political rally. But I couldn't do it in uniform as a military member. Why? Because it would look as if the military endorsed a political message which the military tries hard not to do. So technically their use of names could be considered illegal.
There are types of legislation to protect military members much more than the civilian population i.e. soldiers and sailors relief act. There is a long and storied list of examples of the government stepping forward to make sure military members are not unfairly taken advantage of.
This is because they take an obligation to risk (theoretically) more than the average person. If you live in some parts of Toledo I would argue that you risk less than that of the green zone.
And your example of a obituary or a birth record is again misconstrued. Yes any paper can list births and deaths but they don't list births under the heading "Local recent examples of out-of-date birth control measures." That would be considered slander and obscuring someone's name for a political message without their consent.
posted by MikeyA at 02:18 P.M. EST on Wed Jul 26, 2006 #
Speaking about homophobes, billy, why aren't you out demonstrating with the Westboro Baptist Church?
posted by anonymouscoward at 03:29 P.M. EST on Wed Jul 26, 2006 #
A/C...remember that OUCH!!! button?
The above post is the kind that make people not take you seriously.
posted by fequalsma73 at 03:39 P.M. EST on Wed Jul 26, 2006 #
Glad to see you missed the point AC.
posted by billy at 04:06 P.M. EST on Wed Jul 26, 2006 #
What point? You have a point, billy? Speaking of stereotypes, there's one about those who paint others as homos -- they're in denial about their own homosexuality.
posted by anonymouscoward at 06:11 P.M. EST on Wed Jul 26, 2006 #
Or it suggests the girl who works in BG doesn't have a clue as to what is the difference between "Goth" and "Gay". Unless BG is dramatically different the majority of those I have known that have enjoyed such revelry have not been Gay. Infact the only thing many of the people I know that enjoy such Goth nights have shared has been being pagan. However, I'm not going to be silly enough to state all Goths are therefore Pagan.
:-)
(A former Rocky Horror Picture Show devotee)
posted by psyche777 at 06:58 P.M. EST on Wed Jul 26, 2006 #
I'd also point out though it's probably a futile point that to me it appears AC's original intent was to point out that despite the belief that the ACLU was anti-Christian they were not and that they would even defend a group that would not be inline with what most of us would expect the ACLU to support.
I'd further point out that at least it appears all of those who have commented agree that Phelp's organization does not promote ideals we agree with. Though I don't think all agree that they should have the right to free speech.
:-)
posted by psyche777 at 07:02 P.M. EST on Wed Jul 26, 2006 #
psyche...good points, but I think it says a lot about the ACLU and the reputation they've developed over the last decade or so that my initial reaction to their 'case' was that their interest was more in the protesting soldiers than in defending the right of an organization to free speech. Sad, huh?
posted by MaggieThurber at 07:21 P.M. EST on Wed Jul 26, 2006 #
Sometimes I wonder, I think it is also in part due to the publicity that some ALCU cases generate that add to their "reputation" versus not getting as much media attention to the times when they have represented less "controversial" (for lack of a better word) cases. That's human nature though if you believe a group or a person is "bad" you tend to pay more attention to what they do that reinforces that as opposed to a group you support you of course do the opposite.
I have some friends that are very involved in the whole Stop the ACLU blogging meme and we agree to disagree on some of it. Would it be great to live in a world where the ALCU was not needed? Yep, but they do serve a purpose as far as speaking up for everyone even people I'd have a hard time in supporting. I keep reminding myself we don't have a right to not be offended...
To me the saddest part is when people assume that their rights should be more important than ours. It should be such a simple matter of respect and so much of what happens could be avoided.
posted by psyche777 at 08:09 P.M. EST on Wed Jul 26, 2006 #
" there's one about those who paint others as homos -- they're in denial about their own homosexuality."
Yeah, my wife was telling me about that. And the point I was trying to make was that I do NOT believe you're gay, but again, you missed it. My apologies.
posted by billy at 08:31 P.M. EST on Wed Jul 26, 2006 #
I think he could be gay. He doesn't want to meet us and wants to stay very anonymous...just not ready to come out of the closet? I could see it. Afterall, if you don't renounce it, you must agree with it, right A/C?
Also...
the next person who bashes the ACLU as being a pile of evil liberals that only support liberal causes gets a boot right in the crotch from me
I think the ACLU is a pile of evil liberals that only support liberal causes.
posted by fequalsma73 at 11:49 P.M. EST on Wed Jul 26, 2006 #
As do I. They're VERY selective now about the cases they take. Wasn't that way back in the beginning.
posted by Darkseid at 02:12 A.M. EST on Thu Jul 27, 2006 #
BTW-don't believe anybody has explained this....exactly HOW do these moronic scum KNOW the people whose funerals they disrupt were homosexual? I guess that's what they're supposed to be there for, if I saw it right-that they were killed (by God) because they were homosexual?
posted by Darkseid at 02:15 A.M. EST on Thu Jul 27, 2006 #
Or did I miss an excerpt somewhere?
posted by Darkseid at 02:16 A.M. EST on Thu Jul 27, 2006 #
No, I prefer anonymity because I don't need stereotypical fat bigoted fucks like you going around waving your tiny pricks about on how much greater you all are because you're greedy materialistic assholes who think nothing of paying out the ass for designer clothes (made in a sweatshop) that advertise for the clothing manufacturer or because you drive a shiny new gas-guzzling SUV or because you have a happening job and home that you slept your way into or landed through nepotism or ass-kissing or just plain having the balls to lie your asses off and not feel the slightest remorse about doing so.
I prefer my anonymity because that way I'm not catching shit from even more people in my personal life who magically assume I have no life and it's okay to treat me like shit and then ask me to do something for them (often fixing something technical or technological) because they spent their time doing something totally worthless for "entertainment" (like watching TV or shopping or partying) or generally being about and making fun of anyone who didn't live life like them. Cause, while it's nice to know I'm a hell of a lot smarter then they are, it's a real fucking annoyance to spend a few hours fixing their PC, instructing them on simple security measures, pointing out that their WiFi connection does not magically stop at their walls, re-jiggering the cables on their thousand-dollar-plus HDTV and explaining to them that they managed to hook it up almost completely wrong, and then get paid with a check that BOUNCES because the shiny new home, new car, new TV, and new computer were all bought on credit (as well as the designer clothes) and they came up short in the account. I'm just a LITTLE tired of that sort of thing right now, which is why I'm trying VERY hard to find a job that doesn't involve sales or service where I'm going to have to deal with MORE assholes like you, for the sake of my blood pressure.
Once upon a time I worked tech support, and as a result my opinion is the average person is incredibly stupid and will readily ream CS/TS a new one for any kind of perceived injustice and even more so for not having magic powers to make things just work. Of course, it really boils down to the customers being fucking morons who could understand the problems and solve them or actually blame the responsible party or parties that caused the problems, like themselves or the dumbass who didn't call before he dug and just tore up a big fat fiber tube, er I mean pipe, and knocked out service to half the country.
There's a few people on this board who actually have functioning, rational, intelligent brains in their heads, and I'll gladly acknowledge them as better people than me just because they have a much higher tolerance for BS and hypocrisy than I do.
posted by anonymouscoward at 02:21 A.M. EST on Thu Jul 27, 2006 #
Phelps little gang of protesters consists of 80% family members.
If you get to see any footage of any funerals where these band of nit wits protest, it's the same people.
This crusade began over 10 years ago when Phelps decided protesting "funerals of dead "outed" homosexual people" would get "his message out about his crusade against homosexuals".
Phelps isn't doing this for attention, he's doing this for his "legacy", for he is convinced people die because of homosexual tolerance.
Protesting funerals of fallen soldiers gets the message out faster than just dead gay people.
Long Live the Patriot Guard!
posted by BrianInFlorida at 04:35 A.M. EST on Thu Jul 27, 2006 #
A/C--you fix computers? Great! Mine has been doing something weird since I tried to convert it to Christ. I hate this thing! I think it might be gay.
Seriously, though...a little bitter about something?
exactly HOW do these moronic scum KNOW the people whose funerals they disrupt were homosexual?
--Darkseid
They say that our soldiers are being killed because the country as a whole accepts homosexuality. The bottom line is that the ACLU continues to defend the liberal left because these people are in no way, shape, or form right wing. Saying that they are right winged because they are 'Christian' is just wrong because they are not Christian at all. In fact, they are the exact opposite of Christianity.
posted by fequalsma73 at 05:17 A.M. EST on Thu Jul 27, 2006 #
AC, you truly are pathetic.
posted by billy at 06:49 A.M. EST on Thu Jul 27, 2006 #
I guess I'd have to say that I'm glad an organization like the ACLU is around.
Not because I agree with these people who feel this need to protest at funerals, because I don't. This group makes my skin crawl. I do not think this group is "christian" but then I do not think many groups who claim to be "christian" actually have anything at all to do with being christ like.
I think they do good because someone's got to stand up for people, like the guy mentioned in a previous post who was put into that "christian" rehab that really wasn't a rehab at all.
posted by OhioKat at 08:24 A.M. EST on Thu Jul 27, 2006 #
Speaking of goth, has anyone been to the city club in detroit? Used to be a cool place, i dont know if it still is, i haven't been there in about4 or 5 years. But it was definatly an awsome club.
posted by tm at 10:14 A.M. EST on Thu Jul 27, 2006 #
dark - they know the funerals they are going to are regular soldiers. That means, by sheer demographics - some will be gay and the majority straight.
They don't care. They are using these private ceremonies, on private property to address their hatred for homosexuals. They claim that because the soldier was a part of the armed forces of a country that supports homosexuality - this has caused all the conflict in the world by bringing God's wrath on the world.
It's not based in Christian theology whatsoever - and any unbiased party would be able to listen to the logic of this group and know, whatever it is that they ARE, they are not Christians.
posted by katie82640 at 12:16 P.M. EST on Thu Jul 27, 2006 #
and fyi - in case anybody missed this - this is about the right to privacy. Which is why the ACLU would have taken the case.
Chip, chip, chipping away....they are pretty confident they'll remove the right to privacy eventually on one of these issues. Then it'll apply everywhere once a precedent has been set.
posted by katie82640 at 12:17 P.M. EST on Thu Jul 27, 2006 #
It's not based in Christian theology whatsoever - and any unbiased party would be able to listen to the logic of this group and know, whatever it is that they ARE, they are not Christians.
Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13.
They profess to follow the Bible, go to church, and believe in Jesus. What else does it take to be a Christian? A secret decoder ring?
posted by anonymouscoward at 01:49 P.M. EST on Thu Jul 27, 2006 #
Someone becomes a Christian by trusting in the sacrifice of Christ alone for the forgiveness of his sins. To be a Christian means to follow Christ, to desire Him, to fellowship with Him, to be indwelt by Him, and to bring glory to Him in your life.
Accept that you have sinned and that Jesus' death on the cross is the only way to be saved from sin. With this repentance and acceptance of Jesus, you get eternal life in Heaven. That is it. Simple. You just have to acknowledge to God that you sin, be sorry for your sin, ask God to forgive you, believe Jesus died to save you, and you are a Christian. That is at the heart of all Christianity. Once you are a Christian you will no longer want to sin. It is obvious these people are NOT CHRISTIANS!
posted by fequalsma73 at 03:15 P.M. EST on Thu Jul 27, 2006 #
As I said before to be a Christian is to strive to live and act as Christ would.
I don't remember Christ ever protesting a funeral.
However I believe it was Pope John Paul who when asked about homosexuals said to hate the sin but not the sinner.
posted by MikeyA at 03:27 P.M. EST on Thu Jul 27, 2006 #
Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13.
They profess to follow the Bible, go to church, and believe in Jesus. What else does it take to be a Christian? A secret decoder ring?
No, it doesn't take a secret decoder ring.
John 13:20
John 13:34
posted by madjack at 03:36 P.M. EST on Thu Jul 27, 2006 #
Nicely done brothers :-)
AC - it's all meant for you as well. Up to you if you can accept that or not.
posted by katie82640 at 05:24 P.M. EST on Thu Jul 27, 2006 #
Just more proof how some twist their religious views in order to justify their hateful, silly ways.
posted by pink_slip at 05:40 P.M. EST on Thu Jul 27, 2006 #
Oh, religion has been used by that other side many times, for many reasons. (War pops right into my mind for some reason)
That's why I just stick to the basics :-)
posted by katie82640 at 06:45 P.M. EST on Thu Jul 27, 2006 #
Just more proof how some twist their religious views in order to justify their hateful, silly ways.
Huh? Explain, please.
posted by fequalsma73 at 07:10 P.M. EST on Thu Jul 27, 2006 #
talking about the wbc
posted by pink_slip at 07:22 P.M. EST on Thu Jul 27, 2006 #
and in this instance slip - we're in agreement. Talk about taking a message of love and nurturing and twisting it into this? It's just sick. No rational mind would think these are followers of Jesus. No way.
posted by katie82640 at 07:26 P.M. EST on Thu Jul 27, 2006 #
No rational mind would think these are followers of Jesus.
No rational mind would think a lot of so-called "Christians" are followers of Jesus, based on the sheer number of 'em who have to make a big deal about their faith and how anyone who doesn't follow it are gonna BURN in HELL, and how defensive they get when some innocent soul dares to point out that all this God stuff in the Pledge and on money was added recently and by "Christians" who couldn't keep their religion and their prayers to themselves, like Jesus TOLD them to do.
posted by anonymouscoward at 10:43 P.M. EST on Thu Jul 27, 2006 #
A/C--you read the Bible often?
posted by fequalsma73 at 10:56 P.M. EST on Thu Jul 27, 2006 #
Thanks to all who fully explained what these nutjobs were doing, guess I misread somewhere along the line. I don't care if it were Hitler or Stalin, or someone just as bad-evey human being is , or should be, entitled to a funeral without it being disrupted. Period. Especially vets. That's just the way I feel about it.
posted by Darkseid at 01:45 A.M. EST on Fri Jul 28, 2006 #
should be, entitled to a funeral without it being disrupted.
OMG you're a closet liberal, here you are expressing an entitlement!
Nice Godwin by the way.
No. The deal is that people should be 1) respectful and 2) tasteful enough to not demonstrate intolerance at a funeral.
posted by anonymouscoward at 03:36 A.M. EST on Fri Jul 28, 2006 #
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law
If any of you were curious.
posted by Darkseid at 05:24 A.M. EST on Fri Jul 28, 2006 #
"and how anyone who doesn't follow it are gonna BURN in HELL" AC
You're actually the only person I've ever seen type that out. I don't know anybody who has that kind of thought or uses that phrase.
New notices today from the folks who are out doing something rather than just talkin'.
http://patriotguard.org/
There is a ride in Michigan - date should be posted today:
Spc. Dennis K. Samson Jr., 24, of Hesperia, Mich., died on July 24 in Taqaddum, Iraq, of injuries sustained by enemy small arms fire. Samson was assigned to 1st Battalion, 506th Infantry Regiment, 101st Airborne Division, Fort Campbell, Ky.
posted by katie82640 at 10:10 A.M. EST on Fri Jul 28, 2006 #
Probably the most moving experience of my life is when I visited the injured Marines of Bethesda Naval Hospital. I found I was quite popular because I was a Marine in uniform who didn't work in the Marine Liason office. I found after talking to many of them they wanted to hear more about me and my unit rather than talk about their time in Iraq because they were away from their units and they liked hearing the everyday scuttlebutt.
I have yet to have met one who wasn't a selfless human being and who wouldn't give anything for the sake of their fellow Marines. Most wanted to return to their units if possible. I think if any of these people protesting the funerals had met any of these heros they'd probably decide on a more respectable way to protest.
posted by MikeyA at 11:07 A.M. EST on Fri Jul 28, 2006 #
I've seen footage of that hospital. It has to be a moving experience. I know we had dinner on the 4th with a WWII veteran. He said he doesn't like to remember the war - but he loves to visit with the guys from his old unit. He said something that stuck with me, 'nobody hates war more than a soldier'.
posted by katie82640 at 11:49 A.M. EST on Fri Jul 28, 2006 #
I'd just like to note that it if wasn't for that liar Bush (what WMDs?), there wouldn't be troops being killed in Iraq and therefor the WBC assholes would not be protesting at soldiers' funerals.
posted by anonymouscoward at 01:48 P.M. EST on Fri Jul 28, 2006 #
WOW!!! What ISN'T Bush's fault in the liberal mind?
posted by fequalsma73 at 02:07 P.M. EST on Fri Jul 28, 2006 #
WOW!!! What ISN'T Bush's fault in the liberal mind?
Nice to see you cannot argue the validity of my point.
posted by anonymouscoward at 01:21 A.M. EST on Sat Jul 29, 2006 #
Fine, fine...they found WMDs, where have you been?
Oh, but they were old and Mr. blah blah blah said they were potent.
Maybe so, but we still found them, which means Bush was right.
But he can't be right! Innocent people are dying!
Innocent people die all the time, chill.
No way! I'm calling Cindy Sheehan! She lost her son! No blood for oil!!!
My point is that it is the same argument time after time after time...it's all Bush's fault. He invaded Iraq for the oil. He dodged his military service. He smoked crack. He got BJs from Monica, oops wrong guy. But you see my point? EVERYTHING IS HIS FAULT!! No matter what, it is his fault. I have a cold right now. Is that his fault? Probably because of global warming somehow and it has been aided by the explosions of bomb in Iraq...it's all Bush's fault! Uh...so tired. Give me something new, even if it's a lie. C'mon, you libs can come up with some pretty entertaining whoppers.
posted by fequalsma73 at 03:28 A.M. EST on Sat Jul 29, 2006 #
a/c - there's no guarantee that such a group wouldn't protest soldier deaths regardless of Iraq - or maybe they'd be protesting some other deaths instead. Simply because they found a convenient excuse doesn't mean that, absent this one excuse, they wouldn't find another. Sometimes, it's no one's fault. It just is.
posted by MaggieThurber at 07:54 A.M. EST on Sat Jul 29, 2006 #
Sometimes, it's no one's fault. It just is.
Maggie, you're talkin' to a brick wall. If Snivil didnt have someone to point his fingers at, he might have to take a long hard look at himself, and that'd be a little to real for comfort.
posted by billy at 10:50 A.M. EST on Sat Jul 29, 2006 #
Let's see what happens when an evangelical pastor disowns conservative politics, shall we?
posted by anonymouscoward at 09:29 P.M. EST on Sat Jul 29, 2006 #
Dont confuse Evangelicals as Christians.
http://ohiochristian.blogspot.com/2006/06/episcopalians-refuse-affirmation-of_23.html
posted by billy at 06:21 A.M. EST on Sun Jul 30, 2006 #
Whoops - should have said dont confuse episcopalians as Christians, which isnt who AC was talking about, so my bad.
posted by billy at 06:27 A.M. EST on Sun Jul 30, 2006 #
Whoops - should have said dont confuse episcopalians as Christians, which isnt who AC was talking about, so my bad.
Whoops is right, fucko.
Women in charge? Gay bishops? Refusing to believe that Jesus Christ is the only name by which people can be saved?
God, I like the Episcopalian Church more and more every day. And to think I was baptized one as well. What's next, the Archbishop of Canterbury is going to excommunicate us? OH NOES, NOT THAT!
I wonder if there's any Episcopalians here who would like to have a word with you for questioning their Christianity, billy. I got some extra buttery popcorn ready to watch this show.
posted by anonymouscoward at 04:27 P.M. EST on Sun Jul 30, 2006 #
Funeral Picketers Sued By Marine's Dad --
Lawsuit Claims Anti-Gay Church Furthers Grief For Families Of Dead
The lawsuit says Westboro knowingly violated Snyder's privacy, defamed him and was an intentional infliction of emotional distress against the bereaved father.
Violation of privacy doesn't fly with me and probably won't with the court. The other two could damn well bite the WBC in the ass.
And that's how you try to handle this stuff in the United States. Get a lawyer and sue.
posted by anonymouscoward at 01:16 A.M. EST on Mon Jul 31, 2006 #
I wonder if there's any Episcopalians here who would like to have a word with you for questioning their Christianity, billy.
bring it on!!
I got some extra buttery popcorn ready to watch this show
Kick back and wait - its not like you have to get up and go to work or anything
posted by billy at 06:44 A.M. EST on Mon Jul 31, 2006 #
geez u guys.
In my experience the word evangelical has been used more as an adjective than a noun.
of, relating to, or being in agreement with the Christian gospel especially as it is presented in the four Gospels (also is used to relate to overly zealous behavior NOT related to Jesus or faith)
I don't know of an Evangelical faith - ?? So I guess I don't see how you could confuse them with Christians. I'm Lutheran - my folks Methodist and we refer kind of as a slang - to evangelicals as those who feel that they want to get out in the community and serve the Lord. Like caring for neighbors, voluteer services etc.
But in the Lutheran church there is the Missouri Sinod and the ELCA (Evangelical Lutheran Church of America) again used as an adjective.
You'll find nuts in all churches - they're populations of people and just as diverse as any population you will find. Like political organizations :-)
Runs away...
posted by katie82640 at 10:20 A.M. EST on Mon Jul 31, 2006 #
My biggest problem with protesters is their lack of creativity. They stand on a corner during working hours trying to influence me as I drive to my job. It pisses me off more that they aren't working.
So if I were a protester here would be my protest BJ'S FOR BUSH! My arguement would be that Clinton was in office and didn't get involved in a war without the constitutional consent of congress based on conjecture and reasonable intelligence from the CIA (as long as you don't count Bosnia) and the whole time he was getting BJ's.
So from that we could deduce that BJ's would make someone less combatant. Hence Laura Bush would not be doing her spousal duties so we would need protesters willing to give a BJ to the president.
Now to me that's creative. 100,000 women on the national mall trying to give the president a hummer. It'd get my attention.
posted by MikeyA at 12:00 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 31, 2006 #
Kick back and wait - its not like you have to get up and go to work or anything
Ouch!!! posted by billy at 07:44 A.M. EDT on Mon Jul 31, 2006 #
-------------------------------------------
OOOOO! GOOD ONE!
posted by Darkseid at 07:24 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 31, 2006 #
Kick back and wait - its not like you have to get up and go to work or anything
Ouch!!! posted by billy at 07:44 A.M. EDT on Mon Jul 31, 2006 #
-------------------------------------------
OOOOO! GOOD ONE!
Looking for a job does not imply lack of employment. Mind you, DarkCodger can talk, he sits at home and collects his Social Security check, paid for my me and everyone else who pays into Social Security.
And I see I've managed to make the OUCH highlighter for calling bully a fucko. Unless people think I've got something against the Episcopalians, which I absolutely do not, and if I really felt like going to church, it'd be the first one I'd go to. So I guess that means that the majority of ToledoTalk endorses bully's position that Episcopalians are not Christians, right? Religious intolerance at its finest!
posted by anonymouscoward at 08:11 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 31, 2006 #
Damn it, Mikey, now you've got me fantasizing again.
posted by Darkseid at 06:10 A.M. EST on Tue Aug 01, 2006 #
#1, note I have never nor will never use the ouch button. What you print is your business. If I dont like it, Im free to ignore, which I most often do.
#2 as far as everyone endorsing/not endorsing my comment that Episcopalians are not Christians by their silence, that's moronic. People's non-response to any posting means nothing but that they chose not to respond. You want to see some flaming, and now you're pissed it never happened, so by saying 'Religious intolerance at its finest!' you're doing what you do best. Whining.
I'd tell you go grow up, but that'd imply I care one way or another WHAT you do.
posted by billy at 11:12 A.M. EST on Tue Aug 01, 2006 #
This could be an incident where you might want the ACLU on your side.
"Cruz said that when he heard a commotion, he walked out of his back door with his cell phone to see what was happening. He said that when he saw the street lined with police cars, he decided to take a picture of the scene."
"Moments later, Cruz said he got the shock of his life when an officer came to his back yard gate. Cruz said the officer threw him onto a police car, cuffed him and took him to jail. Cruz said police told him that he broke a new law that prohibits people from taking pictures of police with cell phones."
"The NBC 10 Investigators asked the ACLU union how they viewed the incident. There is no law that prevents people from taking pictures of what anybody can see on the street," said Larry Frankel of the American Civil Liberties Union. Frankel said Cruz's civil rights might have been violated. "He was unlawfully seized, which is a violation of the 4th amendment the last time we checked," Frankel said."
"Cruz, a Penn State University senior, said that after about an hour police told him he was lucky because there was no supervisor on duty, so they released him. Police told Hairston that they did take Cruz into to custody, but they said Cruz was not on his property when they arrested him. Police also denied that they told Cruze he was breaking the law with his cell phone."
posted by jr at 01:09 P.M. EST on Tue Aug 01, 2006 #
Yup. This is just the kind of thing the ACLU was intended to address. Like alot of things - changes have occurred over time.
The above example is why I have a legal policy jr. I have 24/7 access to a lawyer, from the biggest law firm in the state of Ohio, if I am detained or arrested :-)
Not that I plan to be but this Cruz guy didn't either....
posted by katie82640 at 01:24 P.M. EST on Tue Aug 01, 2006 #
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