New version of Toledo Talk


    July 26, 2006

Dear America, Thanks you! Love, Iraq - Has anyone else seen the "Thank You" message to America? It is a commercial where many Kurds are thanking the U.S. for what we have done in Iraq. You can see the commercials at the link above.
posted by fequalsma73 to culture at 3:59 P.M. EST     (110 Comments)


Comments ...


Well, if foreigners busted into my country, told me what was best for me, and then blamed me for the death of its soldiers (instead of blaming its punk azz president), I'd be grateful too!
posted by MrsPhoenix at 04:25 P.M. EST on Wed Jul 26, 2006     #



NOTE: The above comment was PURPOSELY inflammatory and possibly offensive. I just want to see how "Ouch!!!" works :)
posted by MrsPhoenix at 04:28 P.M. EST on Wed Jul 26, 2006     #



If you belonged to a semi-autonomous people constanly getting punished by the foriegn nations whose boundries you span, you might be impressed when one of them gets taken out.

Does that justify the desicion to go to war strategicly, probably not. Morally, questionable, given the human cost, still probably not.

posted by thetoledowire_com at 04:34 P.M. EST on Wed Jul 26, 2006     #



The Kurds have been victims of Iraq, Iran, Turkey and even the US in some of the power plays that have happened in the Middle East.

Considering we abandoned them after encouraging them to stand up against Saddam and many paid for that with their lives it is pretty amazing that they have put that behind them.

posted by psyche777 at 07:07 P.M. EST on Wed Jul 26, 2006     #



There's an unbiased source, fequalsma73 - the US-puppet, Kurdish Regional Government (KRG) that is comprised of people who staunchly supported the invasion of Iraq, many of whom have been on the CIA payroll for years.

Oh, and if you want to continue to suck up to KRG and its head honcho Massoud Barzani, ask them about academic Dr. Kamal Sayid Qadir, who was arrested and sentenced to 30 years in prison in 2003 for "insulting" Barzani and other KRG types in articles he wrote.

His connections with some influential Austrians (read: $$$) enabled him to be whisked out of jail earlier this year, but his case is an example of the real "freedom and democracy" that the Bush puppets in Iraq like to practice.

posted by Subcomandante_bob at 07:49 P.M. EST on Wed Jul 26, 2006     #



I just want to see how "Ouch!!!" works :)

It doesn't.

posted by anonymouscoward at 08:30 P.M. EST on Wed Jul 26, 2006     #



It's funny how anyone who compliments Bush or the US government is a puppet and anyone who criticizes him or the US government is an honest intellectual.
posted by HeyHey at 10:37 P.M. EST on Wed Jul 26, 2006     #



That's the way it works these days. Not that I'm intending to give the jerkoff any compliments.
posted by Darkseid at 02:19 A.M. EST on Thu Jul 27, 2006     #



While I can't argue that Iraqi leaders are US puppets, I think it's still too early to claim the Kurds as a success story. Sure they have autonomy over their region now, when before Saddam persecuted them. But there is still the question over who will control the oil-rich city of Kirkuk. The Kurds, Sunni's, and Shiite's all want control over it. Not to mention the fact that the Kurds neighbors to the north, US alley Turkey, has been wholeheartedly against an independent Kurdistan. They fear it would cause unrest in their country, due to a large Kurdish population. It's going to be a long war with many players...
posted by pink_slip at 09:45 A.M. EST on Thu Jul 27, 2006     #



thanks for posting fequal. It's nice to see them - alive! Smiling....

That's what I call some good news

posted by katie82640 at 12:06 P.M. EST on Thu Jul 27, 2006     #



The Kurds have been oppressed as much as if not more than any other group I've ever heard of. Their problem is their regional demographic extends from Southern Turkey to Northern Iraq into Northern Iran and some parts of Pakistan and Afghanistan. I'm glad that they now finally have a say to what happens to them in the Iraq government. It is one of the good things we've done.

Also with that I'd also add we've given the Iraqi women the right to vote something that the women in this country had to wait over 130 years to gain. Worldwide this is probably the biggest gain for women's rights in the past 15 years.

posted by MikeyA at 03:10 P.M. EST on Thu Jul 27, 2006     #



Worldwide this is probably the biggest gain for women's rights in the past 15 years.

Yes! THANK YOU GEORGE W. BUSH!

posted by fequalsma73 at 03:31 P.M. EST on Thu Jul 27, 2006     #



well that might be a bit over the top but you can grab the nearest soldier and give them a big hug.

What's that thank a soldier thing? If you can read this thank a teacher.

If it's in english thank a soldier :-)

And if you voted - kiss a soldier.

posted by katie82640 at 05:28 P.M. EST on Thu Jul 27, 2006     #



Also with that I'd also add we've given the Iraqi women the right to vote something that the women in this country had to wait over 130 years to gain. Worldwide this is probably the biggest gain for women's rights in the past 15 years.

Ha, that's a good one. You think the women described below would like to thank GW?

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/267125_erbe19.html

posted by pink_slip at 05:31 P.M. EST on Thu Jul 27, 2006     #



That was an interesting opinion article... even though I saw no evidence of rights being lost, at least not in the specific. It even says that women's rights are still guaranteed by the constitution. It then says that this is not true in practice, and then gives us exactly zero specific examples of this occurring. Apparently, less women have professional jobs, which is the fault of citizens that own businesses... not the government. It also mentions that many Muslim women are being told to "take the veil"... but NOT BY THE GOVERNMENT.

When Saddam was in power, I am fairly certain that his underlings, including his sons, routinely raped and/or killed women without any authority whatsoever. Granted, I am a man, and I have some freedom in my country, but I would certainly choose to wear some cloth over my face if the other choice is constant fear or rape by the government.

The point of liberating Iraq was to give the citizens freedome to do what they wanted. Their freedom to practice their religion involves a certain way of dressing and treating women. It is different from our way, but if you talk to Muslim women in Toledo that wear traditional dress... they will tell you that they are proud and happy to dress the way that they do. People that think that women in Iraq aren't being treated well are simply guilty of arrogance... beliving that THEIR way of being free should be the same as everyone else's.

posted by NotGohmann at 05:59 A.M. EST on Fri Jul 28, 2006     #



Yes - but you're missing the point notgohmann - this is all under GW Bush's control and it's all his fault. Everything's his fault. If somebody farts in Guam - it's his fault.

:-)

posted by katie82640 at 08:19 A.M. EST on Fri Jul 28, 2006     #



Notgohmann, here is the aricle that was cited. It contains more specific info for you:

http://www.irinnews.org/report.asp?ReportID=52776&SelectRegion=Middle_East&SelectCountry=IRAQ

For those not wanting to read the whole article, here are some highlights:

“Before the US-led invasion in 2003, women were free to go to schools, universities and work, and to perform other duties,” Senar added. “Now, due to security reasons and repression by the government, they’re being forced to stay in their homes.”

The new constitution, approved in October 2005, makes Shari’a [Islamic Law] the primary source of national law. According to Senar, however, Shari’a has been misinterpreted by elements within the government and by certain religious leaders, which has resulted in the frequent denial of women’s rights. This is particularly the case in matters pertaining to divorce, she said.

The survey also highlighted the increase in unemployment levels among Iraqi women since 2003. "Female unemployment is now twice as high as that for males, while female poverty has also increased,” said Iman. “In addition, the number of widows – already high as a result of the Iran-Iraq war [in the 1980s] – has increased since the US invasion, making the situation worse.”

Notgohmann said "When Saddam was in power, I am fairly certain that his underlings, including his sons, routinely raped and/or killed women without any authority whatsoever."

You think rape has gone away? From another article:

Like women everywhere, Iraqi women have always been vulnerable to rape. But since the American invasion of their country, the reported incidence of sexual terrorism has accelerated markedly. -- and this despite the fact that few Iraqi women are willing to report rapes either to Iraqi officials or to occupation forces, fearing to bring dishonor upon their families. In rural areas, female rape victims may also be vulnerable to "honor killings" in which male relatives murder them in order to restore the family's honor. "For women in Iraq," Amnesty International concluded in a 2005 report, "the stigma frequently attached to the victims instead of the perpetrators of sexual crimes makes reporting such abuses especially daunting."

Notgohmann said "People that think that women in Iraq aren't being treated well are simply guilty of arrogance"

You're kidding, right?? Well I guess the Iraqi women cited are just arrogant. Damn arrogant Iraqi women...


Katie said "this is all under GW Bush's control and it's all his fault."

I never said this was GW's fault, just that not all Iraqi women would like to thank him.

posted by pink_slip at 09:11 A.M. EST on Fri Jul 28, 2006     #



Sure.....sure - :-)

Have a great and wonderful day.

posted by katie82640 at 10:02 A.M. EST on Fri Jul 28, 2006     #



Thanks.
posted by pink_slip at 12:28 P.M. EST on Fri Jul 28, 2006     #



Shame on you, Pink, for throwing cold water on this touchy, feel-good story...
posted by McCaskey at 01:29 P.M. EST on Fri Jul 28, 2006     #



I'm sorry....I take it back.....everything's fine....
posted by pink_slip at 02:15 P.M. EST on Fri Jul 28, 2006     #



Yes! THANK YOU GEORGE W. BUSH!

Really, since you are in such complete agreement with all of George Bush's policies, why don't you head on down to the recruiter and sign up for military service. I think George, and many members of Congress, should also ask some of their younger family members to go to Iraq.
Let's put your money where your mouth is, I say. You might drop a few pounds while you are in there, and get a vacation from your parent's for a while. Think about it. It's a healthy choice, and you could personally bring freedom to the Muslim world. Think how good that would make you feel. Not to mention these "long-lasting" changes will be cemented in place forever, because our troops aren't going to be leaving at all! Just think of how grateful the people of Iraq will be, to know we are not ever going to leave them!

posted by Bbcmjeep43 at 03:38 P.M. EST on Fri Jul 28, 2006     #



since you are in such complete agreement with all of George Bush's policies

Never said that! Please don't put words in my mouth!

why don't you head on down to the recruiter and sign up for military service.

I would love to join the military, but I have health issues that can't be solved with just dropping a few pounds. (As I recall, you aren't Mr. Fit 2006 yourself, since you mentioned it.) Believe me, I have struggled inside with this. I see guys I went to high school with coming home missing limbs and it kills me inside that is isn't me doing that. I feel guilty inside because I wish I could be the one fighting over there. Think about that next time before you run your mouth off about why I'm not serving. You may have felt the same way during Vietnam. I know my father did.

posted by fequalsma73 at 04:07 P.M. EST on Fri Jul 28, 2006     #



Show me where you are not in agreement with George's policies. I have a feeling that list would be a short one. I believe people should put their money where their mouth is. The powerful Congressmen, and Women. and George Bush are not sending their sons and daughters to Iraq. Sorry about your health issues. Think about that next time before you run your mouth off about why I'm not serving. I thought it was a good idea. Gung Ho for George and all that! Yes. I'm a fat- ass myself. I quit smoking last year, and have been over- eating for a bad habit! I freely admit that I have a weight problem. As a matter of fact. I just got done eating two chocolate Klondike bars.

I'm glad you want to go. I wouldn't feel guilty about it. My opinion is the Iraq War was wrong from the start, and is draining the power of America. I believe it is a prelude to a never ending series of wars and conflict. I believe George Bush is not qualified to run the country. I also believe 9-11 was a set- up, and I'm tired as hell about hearing from the Republicans about 9-11. I'm not going to sit here and wave the flag for idiotic policies, as if I were too stupid to ask questions. You have given more than a few conflicting viewpoints already, and I do not believe everything you say either.

posted by Bbcmjeep43 at 04:50 P.M. EST on Fri Jul 28, 2006     #



Where I disagree with Bush:

Border security--we have none right now. Beef it up! Build the fences and stop letting the illegals in. When we catch them, send them back.
How the war in Iraq is handled--we should be balls to the wall.
Spending--need to do less of it.
Budget Cuts--cut, cut, cut! Social programs need to be cut like whoa!
Education--privatize it! I like the private market to run things.


Mmmm..Klondike bars! :)

posted by fequalsma73 at 05:05 P.M. EST on Fri Jul 28, 2006     #



The powerful Congressmen, and Women. and George Bush are not sending their sons and daughters to Iraq.

Bbcmjeep43 - think that it might have just the slightest bit to do with our military being made up solely of VOLUNTEERS????

And please don't start with "they didn't know what they were getting in to"...anyone who joins the military knows they might have to be engaged in fighting...that whole concept of it being a MILITARY!

posted by MaggieThurber at 05:15 P.M. EST on Fri Jul 28, 2006     #



fequalsma73

That WAS a short list! Nevertheless, I do agree with you on two of those issues. Spending; It's out of control. And the Klondike Bars!

Maggie

Yes, I know it's all volunteer. Those who want to join can freely do so.The question remains that if one is supposedly committed to something, that I believe you should walk the walk, and not just talk the talk. Most of these people in powerful positions in Government have no intention of ever "allowing" their sons and daughters to go to Iraq. Let alone promoting the idea. The poor and the minorities are going, and the sons and daughters of the rich and powerful are not. Yes, there are certain exceptions to every rule. I personally feel that this is a little bit shady.To wave the flag, and be so gung- ho about this idiotic war, but not quite gung- ho enough to send or convince your very own to fight it.

Not to mention the refusal to honestly deal with the fiscal reality of the war, and include it in the budget. That's another topic. When I see a bill for three thousand dollars arrive in every mailbox in the country to pay for this war, then I'll know they are asking equal sacrifice and dealing with the money aspect honestly.

posted by Bbcmjeep43 at 05:33 P.M. EST on Fri Jul 28, 2006     #



think that it might have just the slightest bit to do with our military being made up solely of VOLUNTEERS????

Yeah, let's not concentrate on the chickenhawks' siblings. Let's look at the chickenhawks themselves:

Republican chickenhawks in the U.S. Senate:
Old Senate Majority Leader Trent Lott : avoided the draft, did not serve.
New Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist: did not serve.
John Ashcroft: did not serve. Seven deferments, to teach business.
Saxby Chambliss: did not serve. "Bad knee" He defeated tripelegic Democratic war hero Max Cleland by questioning his patriotism!

Don Nickles: did not serve.
Mitch McConnell: did not serve.
Rick Santorum: did not serve.
Richard Shelby: did not serve.
Phil Gramm: did not serve.
Spencer Abraham: did not serve.
Jon Kyl: did not serve.
John Engler: did not serve.

Republican chickenhawks in the U.S. House :
Newt Gingrich -- sought graduate school deferment, (too smart to die).
Majority Leader Dick Armey - avoided the draft, did not serve.
Majority Leader Tom Delay - avoided the draft, did not serve.
Majority Leader John A. Boehner - did not serve.
Jack Kemp: did not serve. "Knee problem," although continued in NFL for 8 years.

G.O.P. Leader Roy Blunt: did not serve.
Bob Ney: did not serve.
David Dreier: did not serve.
Tim Hutchison: did not serve.
Christopher Cox: did not serve.
Dana Rohrabacher: did not serve.
John M. McHugh: did not serve.
JC Watts: did not serve.
Vin Weber: did not serve.
Bob Barr: did not serve.
Mark Souder: did not serve.
Walter Jones: did not serve.
Katherine Harris: did not serve. .


Republican chickenhawks in the Executive & Judicial branches:

Don Rumsfeld: served in Navy (1954-57) as flight instructor.
Kenneth Starr : sought deferment (for psoriasis).
Bill Bennett : sought graduate school deferment, (too smart to die).
Arnold Schwarzenegger: AWOL from Austrian army base.
Ted Olson, (Starr's assistand, and since Solictor General)

Karl Rove: did not serve.
Paul Wolfowitz: did not serve.
Richard Perle: did not serve.
Douglas Feith: did not serve.
Eliot Abrams: did not serve.
Ari Fleischer: did not serve.
Andrew Card: did not serve.
Ken Adelman: did not serve.
Don Evans: did not serve.
Michael Ledeen: did not serve.
Elliott Abrams: did not serve.
John Bolton: did not serve.
Rudy Giuliani: did not serve.
George Pataki: did not serve.
Kenneth Starr: did not serve.

Supreme Court :
John G. Roberts, Jr.: did not serve.
Samuel Alito: did not serve.
Antonin Scalia: did not serve.
Clarence Thomas: did not serve.

The LIBERAL John Paul Stevens is the only current justice who DID serve, (in the Navy during the 3 worst years of WW II).

Republican chickenhawk Mouthpieces :
Rush Limbaugh -- sought deferment (because of a cyst on his tail end).
George Will -- sought graduate school deferment, (too smart to die).
Pat Buchanan -- sought deferment (for bad knee).
Pat Robertson -- his US Senator father got him out of Korea as soon as the shooting began.
John Wayne -- sought deferment (to further acting career).

Sean Hannity: did not serve.
Bill O'Reilly: did not serve.
Chris Matthews: did not serve.
Matt Drudge: did not serve.
Steve Forbes: did not serve.
Tony Snow: did not serve.
Michael "Savage" Weiner: did not serve.
Brit Hume: did not serve.
Roger Ailes: did not serve.
Paul Gigot: did not serve.
Bill Kristol: did not serve.
Ralph Reed: did not serve.
Michael Medved: did not serve.
Charlie Daniels: did not serve.
Anne Coulter: did not serve.
Jerry Falwell: did not serve.
Alan Keyes : did not serve.
Ted Nugent: did not serve.


Lest I forget:

George W. Bush -- used his family connections (what else is new?!?) to get into the Air National Guard and then "deserted" his post for two years. but still got an "Honorable Discharge".
see AWOL from National Guard Duty
Dick Cheney -- sought graduate school deferment, (too smart to die).

posted by pink_slip at 05:43 P.M. EST on Fri Jul 28, 2006     #



And as we read this you are putting together the list of Democrats, right? I am waiting. There are more Republican vets than Democrat vets in Congress if you want to play this game.
posted by fequalsma73 at 06:08 P.M. EST on Fri Jul 28, 2006     #



Those who served in our armed forces:

HOUSE:
Republicans--69
Democrats--40

SENATE:
Republicans--17
Democrats--13
Independents--1

posted by fequalsma73 at 06:21 P.M. EST on Fri Jul 28, 2006     #



Does this mean you win again! You are pulling so many rabbits out of your hat that it's hard to keep up with you!
posted by Bbcmjeep43 at 06:29 P.M. EST on Fri Jul 28, 2006     #



Pink, you can also add to your illustrious list the Speaker of the House, one Dennis Hastert.
posted by McCaskey at 06:34 P.M. EST on Fri Jul 28, 2006     #



I guess I'm not very patriotic, I ask too many questions. Please call the F.B.I. and have them come and get me. My crimes include,

1. Questioning the Iraq war, and it's necessity.
2. Teasing powerful politicians.
3. Questioning the official story of just about everything.
4. Eating too many Klondike Bars!

posted by Bbcmjeep43 at 06:36 P.M. EST on Fri Jul 28, 2006     #



Who says you aren't patriotic? Call the FBI? Huh? There is nothing wrong with question the war or anything else for that matter. Chill out, no one is out to get you, man.
posted by fequalsma73 at 06:39 P.M. EST on Fri Jul 28, 2006     #



"Chickenhawk (also chicken hawk and chicken-hawk) is a political epithet used in United States to criticize a politician, bureaucrat, or commentator who strongly supports a war or other military action, but has never personally been in a war, especially (but not always) if that person is perceived to have actively avoided military service when of draft age.

The term is meant to indicate that the person in question is cowardly or hypocritical for personally avoiding combat in the past while advocating that others go to war in the present. Often, the implication is that the person in question lacks the experience, judgment, or moral standing to make decisions about going to war."-----

In other words, for the most part, Republicans.

posted by McCaskey at 06:45 P.M. EST on Fri Jul 28, 2006     #



McCaskey...can you read?

Those who served in our armed forces:

HOUSE:
Republicans--69
Democrats--40

SENATE:
Republicans--17
Democrats--13
Independents--1

posted by fequalsma73 at 08:42 P.M. EST on Fri Jul 28, 2006     #



Where I disagree with Bush: The short list- explained.

Border security--we have none right now. Beef it up! Build the fences and stop letting the illegals in. When we catch them, send them back.

That doesn't address the real issues of flawed trade agreements with no effective and enforceable environmental and labor protections. This causes dislocation and poverty. To put it simply, if they had decent jobs there, they would not be coming here in great numbers.

Spending--need to do less of it.

I totally agree with that. It's time to start cutting the defense budget by eliminating waste. (9-10-01) A senior official publicly admitted there may be up to 2.3 trillion dollars unaccounted for. A scale of gross mismanagement and waste that dwarfs anything in the history of mankind. Excuse me, but I'd say there's room for improvement there.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/01/29/eveningnews/main325985.shtml

Education--privatize it! I like the private market to run things.

God help the poor family guy that get's laid off, and can no longer afford to send his children to school. That's the dog- eat -dog capitalism in action. Where's a little faith based charity when ya' need it? Just sell the car, since we'll be running on toll roads owned by foreign corporations.They won't jack up the tolls once they own everything will they?

http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=150060

Budget Cuts--cut, cut, cut! Social programs need to be cut like whoa!

God help Grandma when the Social Security dwindles to nothing. As she lay starving, she can blame herself for not saving enough money. Not to mention her poor choices in her privatized market based egg basket. Too bad they disconnected her phone service, or she might have called! Does that financial management corporation pay for bereavement days?

How the war in Iraq is handled--we should be balls to the wall.

Waddya mean, we already do have our balls to the wall! God help us all! It was supposed to be a "cakewalk" remember?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A1996-2002Feb12?language=printer

http://www.lewrockwell.com/roberts/roberts88.html

posted by Bbcmjeep43 at 09:09 P.M. EST on Fri Jul 28, 2006     #



Mags said: "And please don't start with "they didn't know what they were getting in to"...anyone who joins the military knows they might have to be engaged in fighting...that whole concept of it being a MILITARY!"

The concept of a military does not assume actions up to and including fighting in an oil wars for America's Oil Barons. The concept of our Republic is NOT based in a murderous militarism where we assault the other peoples of the world.

I volunteered when I was 18 and ended up in NORAD, doing what the "Army of the Republic" should be doing: DEFENSE. What's happening in Iraq has absolutely nothing to do with defense. Not one thing. It's all about attacking a nation to steal its oil fields and to keep the Islamic world in submission. A nation is entitled to fully own and control what's within its borders, since that's what "sovereignty" means; and, the Islamic world doesn't deserve to be stomped for the want of a few terrorists.

For militaristic thefts and cultural assault, America has only earned a tac nuke shipped here in a cargo container. No one really wanted to join the military just to see a portion of New York, SF or Chicago vanish in heat and light purely as a result of their actions in said military.

I just spoke today with a co-worker about what it means to be "socially liberal and fiscally conservative". She had never heard such things termed in that way. We touched on the war and I then mentioned my prior military service. I then told her that "if I was in the military now, I'd resign". I never agreed to kill Muslims just because they happened to live over large reserves of petroleum. I always assumed that I was a citizen of a Republic, NOT the bound subject of a fucking Empire.

What the military recruiters and our mediated culture is telling recruits are bald-faced lies just to keep the Rape of the Middle East going. The military concept is wholly corrupt and the recruits don't know what they're really in for.

P.S. Anyone who thanks the American military for invading their nation to steal its oil and kill 10s of thousands in the bargain, is insane.

posted by GuestZero at 09:13 P.M. EST on Fri Jul 28, 2006     #



bbcmjeep...What's your point? We already know we disagree. You are a lib and I am a conservative. I think I can spend my money better than the government can. It's not my fault if other people can't do the same. Why should I be punished through sky high taxes because the lower class folks can't spend wisely? If you spend all your money, then you don't have any left. That is how life works.

That's the dog- eat -dog capitalism in action.

What is wrong with capitalism? Why are you against it? Got a better system?

posted by fequalsma73 at 09:23 P.M. EST on Fri Jul 28, 2006     #



I prefer a more Scandinavian type of system. It is somewhat better at helping people to recover from job loss and providing re-training. Not everyone is a genius and a rocket scientist. A just society should look out for it's weakest members. A society dominated by crass business practices and ruinous trading policies is a society doomed. There has to be some fairness inherent in the system, or you end up with such an unequal balance as what we are seeing now. I believe Government exists to serve the people. I believe businesses have a social responsibility. I believe we are citizens of the United States. We are not merely consumers as they would like to call us. There is more to a society than who can make the most money. I do not believe that the new form of Government we are seeing now is sustainable for the future. The alliance of Big Business and Government against the people themselves.This is an unhealthy development.I believe in regulated capitalism.
posted by Bbcmjeep43 at 09:39 P.M. EST on Fri Jul 28, 2006     #



http://coursesa.matrix.msu.edu/~hst306/documents/indust.html

I believe we are at a crossroads here. A point in history at which change may be possible.The course being taken is the wrong one.The future of the people is being decided in corporate boardrooms and behind closed doors. We are losing parts of our participatory democracy. A State or a Government must by necessity look out for the needs of the people over the corporations.
When corporations set government policy we have lost our democratic rights.

posted by Bbcmjeep43 at 09:45 P.M. EST on Fri Jul 28, 2006     #



When corporations set government policy we have lost our democratic rights.

Corporations can only do what consumers allow them to do.

I believe in regulated capitalism.

Regulated capitalism??? Sounds like communism to me. Where does Jeep fit into all this?

posted by fequalsma73 at 09:59 P.M. EST on Fri Jul 28, 2006     #



Corporations can only do what consumers allow them to do.
Ask Union Carbide about that?
Ask Halliburton about that?
Ask Exxon about that?
That's a short list for you!

Regulated capitalism??? Sounds like communism to me. Where does Jeep fit into all this?

There's nothing mysterious about regulated capitalism.
It is a system where corporations pay their fair share of taxes.
Corporations are not allowed to locate offshore to hide income and assets.
Trade policies beneficial to the people of this nation are favored over those tailored and paid for by big business.
Regulating business has nothing to do with Communism.
It has to do with preventing pure unadulterated greed from destroying the social fabric of this nation.

I do not want to talk about Jeep on this thread, except to say that all corporations are now getting local and State Governments to give incentives to keep facilities and jobs.There is a national and international whipsawing game going on for jobs and facilities.This has been brewing for at least three decades now, and there's little that can be done to stop it at this point.The underlying structural changes have enabled this search for tax incentives and tax abatements by corporations large and small. The corporations themselves must now play this game, or they would be at a dis- advantage to their competitors.To put it in it's simplest form. States and Local Communities are buying jobs in a system based on incentives.

posted by Bbcmjeep43 at 10:27 P.M. EST on Fri Jul 28, 2006     #



fequalsma73,

pink slip's original "list" differs from yours in that it was referring strictly to the "chickenhawks," the definition which I provided above from Wikipedia.

Your "list" is of members of congress who have served by party line, yes. But take for example John McCain. Although pink slip may disagree with his view on the Iraq war and other things, John McCain at least served (and as we all know greatly personally sacrificed) so his viewpoint would not be that of a "chickenhawk."

The distinction is is broken down, I suppose, along lines of respect for the person offering the opinion. If Dick Cheney talks about the need for great personal sacrifice, taking the fight to the enemy, yada, yada, yada, some might argue it sounds somewhat hollow coming from a man who, when his time was to serve, used upteenth student deferrments to avoid such service. With John McCain (and others from both parties) you may disagree with the message, but you can at least respect the messenger.

posted by McCaskey at 12:23 A.M. EST on Sat Jul 29, 2006     #



destroying the social fabric of this nation
HOLD IT! I don't want to hear about destroying the social fabric of this nation from a lib! Do not present your moral high ground in the form of you caring about the 'little guy'.


I do not want to talk about Jeep on this thread, except to say that all corporations are now getting local and State Governments to give incentives to keep facilities and jobs.
Maybe this wouldn't be necessary if the companies weren't required to pay enormously out of proportion wages to union bums.


McCaskey...gotcha now (shakes head in understanding)

posted by fequalsma73 at 03:21 A.M. EST on Sat Jul 29, 2006     #



HOLD IT! I don't want to hear about destroying the social fabric of this nation from a lib! Do not present your moral high ground in the form of you caring about the 'little guy'.
When profitable corporations are allowed to move from the United States to Mexico and China to avoid complying with laws regulating basic worker rights and the environment then we have a serious problem.For these companies to spread their (formerly regulated) pollutants and abuse their workforce in the name of maximum profits, is no more than an obscenity and a blight upon mankind. We are living in a regulated capitalist society for your information. The problem is the unholy alliance of Big Business and Government that has picked up steam in the last decade, pitting workers and communities against each other. I seem to recall a national energy policy designed in secret with Enron as one of the major players. I believe this is damaging to our democracy. If this is a liberal then so be it.
Maybe this wouldn't be necessary if the companies weren't required to pay enormously out of proportion wages to union bums.
I earn my money. I'm not sure what you do for a living. Would you mind telling us? I don't want to burst your little bubble here, you seem like a nice boy.When you get out on your own someday and get a real job, then come and talk to me about Unions.Until you have to pay a nickel to wipe your own ass, then let's not talk about economic theory.You are parroting the lines of the likes of Grover Norquist and Ann Coulter.
P.S. Anytime you are ready I'll buy you a one way ticket to China.You'll be guaranteed to lose weight, and find out about the importance of Unions! Goodbye for now, I have a busy day today.

posted by Bbcmjeep43 at 08:45 A.M. EST on Sat Jul 29, 2006     #



China ticket: conditions. You leave here with fifty bucks in your pocket. You have no access to capital. You stay there and work in a factory.You must remain there for one year. No-one is allowed to send you money. No phone calls home for the first six months. After all, with your brilliant mind you should be just fine, for this is the information age is it not?

Why should I be punished through sky high taxes because the lower class folks can't spend wisely? If you spend all your money, then you don't have any left. That is how life works.

If you survive, then I must change all my theories, and follow your theories! I must buy and read all of Ann Coulter's books, and prominently display them in my home. I must look down on the poor and disadvantaged, and treat them as lesser than. For their own stupidity caused their problems.

posted by Bbcmjeep43 at 09:15 A.M. EST on Sat Jul 29, 2006     #



in the name of maximum profits
What is wrong with maximum profits? Without profits, companies would close. After all, the soul purpose of a business is to make money. That is capitalism. Without it, you have no job!

You seem to forget that the government's unholy alliance with big business is because the government is also a consumer. They have needs as well and they are kind enough to consume from private companies. What if instead of buying airplanes from Boeing they just made them themselves? Well, all those Boeing people would be out of a job, wouldn't they? Hmm...something reminds me of a certain 4 wheel vehicle the army purchased a lot of back in the day...I believe they were called JEEPS! Thank Uncle Sam.

Listen Bbcm...I don't care if you are jealous because I am smart enough to make my money work for me to give me a cushion enough to live comfortably. It's ok. You aren't the first and you probably won't be the last unfortunately. I have also told you I am not 'on my own' because of health issues I have. I can not live alone at this point. I also have aging parents that need me.

You will note I have not included anything we talked about in person from last Saturday. I think you would like me to keep it that way and I will as long as you can return to doing the same.

In your last post you just told us all how wonderful you really think capitalism is! Thank you! You want me to go to China to see how tough it is because things are horrible under a Communist dictatorship. Which is it you hate more; capitalism or communism? How will the world be perfect in your eyes?

Also..the fat comments are funny. Does the UAW build glass houses???

posted by fequalsma73 at 10:38 A.M. EST on Sat Jul 29, 2006     #



What you copy and comment on, are only parts of what is written.

What you copy:in the name of maximum profits
What was actually written:For these companies to spread their (formerly regulated) pollutants and abuse their workforce in the name of maximum profits, is no more than an obscenity and a blight upon mankind.

You take just about everything out of context, and apply your Conservative slant to it.There are a lot of people like you.You have the right to be that way. I'll be there to beat you down with real facts.

What you copy: destroying the social fabric of this nation
What was actually written: It has to do with preventing pure unadulterated greed from destroying the social fabric of this nation.

What you copy: unholy alliance
What was actually written:The problem is the unholy alliance of Big Business and Government that has picked up steam in the last decade, pitting workers and communities against each other.

Your statements:Listen Bbcm...I don't care if you are jealous because I am smart enough to make my money work for me to give me a cushion enough to live comfortably
The truth: I am not jealous. You are now putting words into my mouth. I own stocks and investments as well.

Your statements: I have also told you I am not 'on my own' because of health issues I have.
The truth: I do not recall your telling me that. And I have a very good memory.

Your statements:You will note I have not included anything we talked about in person from last Saturday
The truth:(As I recall, you aren't Mr. Fit 2006 yourself, since you mentioned it.)

Your statements:In your last post you just told us all how wonderful you really think capitalism is!
The truth: I never said those words, and this was taken out of context as well.

Your statements:You want me to go to China to see how tough it is because things are horrible under a Communist dictatorship.
The truth: P.S. Anytime you are ready I'll buy you a one way ticket to China.You'll be guaranteed to lose weight, and find out about the importance of Unions! Goodbye for now, I have a busy day today. China ticket: conditions. You leave here with fifty bucks in your pocket. You have no access to capital. You stay there and work in a factory.You must remain there for one year. No-one is allowed to send you money. No phone calls home for the first six months. After all, with your brilliant mind you should be just fine, for this is the information age is it not? This is merely a suggestion.

Your statements:Also..the fat comments are funny. Does the UAW build glass houses???
The truth: We are both fat. You are a little bit fatter!

P.S. Maybe you should return to the original subject here. I will return to not talking to you anymore. I believe you repeatedly take things out of context, and twist their meanings to suit your political agenda and platform. Say whatever you wish about me if you choose to do that. I don't give a rat's ass! I really went there to meet GuestZero. I don't care what you do, and you have obviously not fully read through the arguments. You pick and pull and look for chicken-scratch bullshit. Then you act like you know something. I do not like you. You seem to think you are so superior to everyone else somehow?

posted by Bbcmjeep43 at 11:29 A.M. EST on Sat Jul 29, 2006     #



I do not like you.

I'm crying now. lol

posted by fequalsma73 at 01:57 P.M. EST on Sat Jul 29, 2006     #



bbcmjeep43:

Feeding trolls only makes them, well, trollier.

While you and I have disagreed on a few items, you have always treated people here with respect and civility. I hope that the poster who is attacking you learns from your ability to engage in civil discourse.

posted by historymike at 05:23 P.M. EST on Sat Jul 29, 2006     #



9/11 and the NeoCon Agenda on CSPAN 1!

In the Media
Another breakthrough media moment! This weekend CSPAN 1, the main CSPAN channel, will broadcast a truly powerful panel discussion from the June American Scholars Symposium: "9/11 and the Neocon Agenda," and will air it three times in prime viewing slots.

Click graphic for more details.
This dynamic panel including Professor Steven Jones, Col. Robert Bowman, Professor James Fetzer, Webster Tarpley and Alex Jones, powerfully demolishes the government's official story of what happened on 9/11.

CSPAN's schedule now confirms that the L.A. panel discussion on 9/11 will be broadcast Saturday night, July 29, at 8:00 PM (EDT), 11:00PM (EDT), and Sunday, July 30 at 2:15 PM (EDT) .

It's on right now.

posted by Bbcmjeep43 at 10:05 P.M. EST on Sat Jul 29, 2006     #




I would love to join the military, but I have health issues that can't be solved with just dropping a few pounds.


Would that be an anal cyst (Rush Limbaugh's excuse for dodging), or just having your head up your ass? Though the Texas ANG took George aWol Bush despite his cranial-rectal inversion...

Of course, if you can't do the military but you feel that Iraq is all safe and secure and that you should be making things better for the Iraqi people, how about signing up for a volunteer organization and go over there and take care of some Iraqis. Oh wait, I forgot, everything's sunshine and rainbows over there, there aren't any Iraqis worse off now than they were under Saddam, and certainly none of them had their families blown up or limbs blown off as a result of our invasion/occupation and the resistence/insurgency (how long has that insurgency been in its last throes for now?) that followed.

I'm sure that some of us will pool together to buy you a plane ticket (one-way) to Iraq. What are you waiting for?

Oh, and of that chickenhawk list above, I wish to elaborate on Dick Cheney's quailness:

"Started with student deferment; when rules tightened, married to get family deferment. When rules changed to exempt only married men with children, Cheney went to work, fathering a child born exactly nine months and two days after the rule-change."

When out hunting, Cheney doesn't need any kind of bird calls, he just opens his mouth and speaks the language.

posted by anonymouscoward at 11:49 P.M. EST on Sat Jul 29, 2006     #



Would that be an anal cyst (Rush Limbaugh's excuse for dodging), or just having your head up your ass?

neither

posted by fequalsma73 at 01:23 A.M. EST on Sun Jul 30, 2006     #



Well then, fecal, it must be the Don't Ask Don't Tell policy that excludes you from service, right?
posted by anonymouscoward at 01:34 A.M. EST on Sun Jul 30, 2006     #



Well then, fecal, it must be the Don't Ask Don't Tell policy that excludes you from service, right?

wrong again

posted by fequalsma73 at 01:37 A.M. EST on Sun Jul 30, 2006     #



Got any other classy shots you want to use to show how great you are?
posted by fequalsma73 at 01:40 A.M. EST on Sun Jul 30, 2006     #



McCain's Son to Join Military
posted by fequalsma73 at 05:43 A.M. EST on Sun Jul 30, 2006     #



Thank you for the article fequalsma73. Honestly, I do not think he will EVER be deployed.
posted by MrsPhoenix at 07:36 A.M. EST on Sun Jul 30, 2006     #



One more time for those who missed this! Crank up your computer speakers and enjoy!
http://www.toonedin.com/cheney.html

posted by Bbcmjeep43 at 10:00 A.M. EST on Sun Jul 30, 2006     #



Whatever happened to statesmen with diplomatic skills and abilities?
Here's one. I like this candidates message and his qualifications. I like a Democrat with some conviction.

The cabal of neoconservatives at PNAC who planned this war (Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Libby, Perle, Jeb Bush) even before W became president, told us why they wanted to invade Iraq. They said that whether or not Saddam Hussein stayed in power, we had to have a massive permanent military presence in Iraq from which to dominate Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia, and the southern Russian republics around the Caspian Sea and control the two trillion dollars worth of oil in the region. But they admitted that they knew the American people would not stand for it – unless there was (to use their words) “a new Pearl Harbor.” 9/11 supplied that. The Bush Administration was warned. They were warned by the Clinton Administration during the transition process. They were warned by the intelligence agencies of 11 other countries. And they were specifically warned by an FBI agent that Mussaowi was planning on flying a hijacked airliner “into the World Trade Center.” They seemingly ignored the warnings. Then, apparently, they took concrete steps to see that those airliners could not be intercepted. I used to be an interceptor pilot. I know the drill. I know the procedures. I know how long it takes. If they had done nothing, and allowed normal procedures to be followed, the Twin Towers would still be standing and thousands of dead Americans would still be alive. What happened on 9/11 was not terrorism, it was TREASON.

http://www.bowman2006.com/veterans_view.htm

posted by Bbcmjeep43 at 09:00 P.M. EST on Sun Jul 30, 2006     #



It's okay for a CEO to walk off with multi-million dollar bonuses and salaries, whether they do a good job or not, but if a guy makes twenty bucks an hour busting his ass for years on end, he's a "union bum."

A corporation fighting tooth and claw to ruin environmental regulations, allowing themselves to pollute our entire planet in the name of maximizing profits, is "dog eat dog capitalism at work." But a collection of employees joining together and using their combined power to fight for a living wage is somehow wrong and anti-capitalist.

You have to almost admire the enormous brass balls of the neocon elite. They keep us squabbling amongst ourselves while they loot the store, with their political base cheering them along all the way. Do these people seriously think they'll be given a chance to join the fat cats at the table someday, or do they just live that deeply in denial?

It's a surreal time when corporate welfare is not only acceptable, but demanded, yet social programs that might help feed or educate a coupla babies here and there are derided as wasteful and coddling.

Makes me wonder what the future holds. The glass is looking half empty these days.

posted by InfernalKeith at 11:12 P.M. EST on Sun Jul 30, 2006     #



Sounds like a sensible argument, Keith. I'd imagine "But the gays wanna marry!" and "Flag burning!!" would be a typical response.

I'd like to thank bbcmjeep43 for pointing out the ignorance of Fequalsma73. You're not out on your own? Then you have no right to use the term "union bum." Who the hell do you think you are? My dad is a retired Powertrain "union bum" and I remember him working a lot of 12+ hour days when I was a kid...you know, back when the auto industry was in good shape and could take care of its own. Those are what you would call the dark days, I suppose, right? Until you get out and learn a few things about the world, stop parroting what Fox News tells you. And show some damn respect while you're at it.

posted by MT1973 at 05:34 A.M. EST on Mon Jul 31, 2006     #



Oh, Jesus H. Christ, when are you people going to quit throwing in that "Fox news" shit? It merely makes your (sometimes good )arguments look foolish. I was starting to go along with you until I saw that.

Yeah...somwhere along the line, back in the 80's, as GZ said here once-we got the notion in our heads as a society that what our parents and grandparents did for a living was somehow 'unclean.' Think about the heat and humidity lately, and feel sorry for all the poor bastards that work in factories. They suffer more than most. I think only roofers have it worse in weather like this.

posted by Darkseid at 08:04 A.M. EST on Mon Jul 31, 2006     #



I'd like to thank bbcmjeep43 for pointing out the ignorance of Fequalsma73. You're not out on your own? Then you have no right to use the term "union bum." Who the hell do you think you are? My dad is a retired Powertrain "union bum" and I remember him working a lot of 12+ hour days when I was a kid...you know, back when the auto industry was in good shape and could take care of its own. Those are what you would call the dark days, I suppose, right? Until you get out and learn a few things about the world, stop parroting what Fox News tells you. And show some damn respect while you're at it.

I have every right to use the term "union bum" because that is what so many of them are. Even BbcmJeep43 would agree that the ones working at Jeep that run around and don't do any work should be fired but can't be because the union protects them. (He said this in person! DO NOT deny it!) Oohhhh...12+ hour days! Big deal! Do you know how many hours the execs at businesses work? 24 hrs a day! They sit at home with their family and answer e-mails. They take business calls during dinner. They wake up in the middle of the night in a cold sweat worried about the company. They can't eat sometimes. They can't sleep sometimes. They are sick because they are trying so hard to make the company's books work and then some crappy union nothing comes along and says he was unfairly terminated because he didn't show up for work! That's crap! I would love to know how many union folk go home and worry about the company and how their whole career, everything they own, their house, the well being of their family depends on the success of a company. I got news for you, I've seen it first hand! Why do you think so many execs have heart attacks? It's because they have to deal with peons in the unions that want every dime they have. The unions are nothing more than another so-called greedy corporation that has suckered you in! Talk about ignorance! That's why I make my money work for me, I don't work for my money! Yeah, I may be one of those spoiled 'kids' living with their parents, but guess what, there are reasons that are none of your business; health and otherwise. So before you call me out for not 'living on my own', check yourself and your union bum friends and YOU show some respect!

posted by fequalsma73 at 08:11 A.M. EST on Mon Jul 31, 2006     #



Where I disagree with Bush:

Border security--we have none right now. Beef it up! Build the fences and stop letting the illegals in. When we catch them, send them back.
How the war in Iraq is handled--we should be balls to the wall.
Spending--need to do less of it.
Budget Cuts--cut, cut, cut! Social programs need to be cut like whoa!
Education--privatize it! I like the private market to run things.


Mmmm..Klondike bars! :)
Ouch!!! posted by fequalsma73 at 06:05 P.M. EDT on Fri Jul 28, 2006 #

---------------------------------------------

I pretty much agree with all of that too, though. Especially the Klondike Bars.

posted by Darkseid at 08:13 A.M. EST on Mon Jul 31, 2006     #



They sit at home with their family and answer e-mails. They take business calls during dinner. They wake up in the middle of the night in a cold sweat worried about the company. They can't eat sometimes. They can't sleep sometimes.

HAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA!!!! Poor guys. It's funny how corporations and the rich have many people brain-washed to protect their rights to get richer. All under the guise of "lower taxes, gov't hands-off, deregulation, lazy union bums". Are these fundamentals going to help the regular working man to sit at the same table as the Donald Trumps? IMHO, it helps destroy the middle class instead.

posted by pink_slip at 08:42 A.M. EST on Mon Jul 31, 2006     #



They give the 'regular working man' a job! They could give more jobs through company expansion in the U.S., but they have to pay much of the time undeserved union wages and can't get rid of the 'help' that doesn't help. Now, if you'll excuse me, I have a break that I must take. If I don't, my union boss will be mad.
posted by fequalsma73 at 08:48 A.M. EST on Mon Jul 31, 2006     #



Bbcmjeep43----I wish I had seen that program on CSPAN. I'm going to try to watch it online. Here are a couple more sites you mite be interested in:

http://911research.com/

http://www.st911.org/

http://www.911blogger.com/

posted by pink_slip at 08:49 A.M. EST on Mon Jul 31, 2006     #



There's a zogby poll on that last link. Gee whiz - I haven't heard from Zogby since the last two elections. They did the exit polls and the polling leading up to John Kerry's big landslide win!!

Can anybody still think Zogby is a credible resource? Seriously?

posted by katie82640 at 10:48 A.M. EST on Mon Jul 31, 2006     #



I would love to know how many union folk go home and worry about the company and how their whole career, everything they own, their house, the well being of their family depends on the success of a company.

Ok i have to jump in here! THere are LOTS of union folk who are worried about the compainies they work for. For example, take the building trades. if theres nothing to build, theres no work. Take jeep, GM, Ford etc. if there not selling then there laying people off and they do it often enought that yea the jeep guys DO worry.

As for these executives that are stressed out, well thats what there paid for, thats what those bonuses are for. I have NO sympathy for a guy who makes a million dollars a year crying becasue hes stressed!

posted by tm at 11:18 A.M. EST on Mon Jul 31, 2006     #



the lower class folks can't spend wisely? If you spend all your money, then you don't have any left. That is how life works.

LOWER CLASS FOLKS?????????

posted by tm at 11:25 A.M. EST on Mon Jul 31, 2006     #



There is the low income class. The middle income class and the high income class.

I wouldn't read anything into that one...

What I'd say is that lower income people spend all their money? That's an unfair statement. Many lower income families have no money to save. That's a fact.

Min. wage is what 5.40 now? I'm not sure - but even working 80 hours a week that's 432.00 before taxes. That's not enough. Sorry.

And no argument about how 'they' should better themselves etc. These are the people who clean businesses. They do the crap jobs that most won't do and these are jobs that HAVE to be done.

That's the part that's not fair. If you work a 40 hour a week job - maybe 216.00 a week income.

How can you spend unwisely on that?

posted by katie82640 at 11:52 A.M. EST on Mon Jul 31, 2006     #



Well said Katie. 8-)
posted by tm at 12:09 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 31, 2006     #



The American Military has a long history of serving civilian leaders. It always has. That is why there is no acception to be a military veteran to hold public office or even to vote.

obviously MrsPheonix is completely unaware as to how the USMC holds it's policy concerning deployments but I'd be more than willing to show her how to look up the orders.

The average soldier today is older, better educated, and from a higher class than in the past when service didn't come as a volunteer only force. This must mean that those serving are serving because they are better educated on the issues and wish to impact those issues.

I would like educate everyone on Wilbur Wilberforce whose crusade to end slavery in England enveloped his life but was victorious only days after his death. His philosophy was to choose the issues of your day that are important to you and impact them however best you can at whatever level you are on.

posted by MikeyA at 12:16 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 31, 2006     #



We were talking about that this weekend. My Dad and I. My youngest son is 16 and so is my nephew. About all the war and I asked him whether or not there'd be a draft by the time the boys graduate high school.

He said he didn't think so - that the military isn't stretched as tight as everybody thinks they are. And that they are giving big bonuses to volunteers. I didn't know about that.

I'd like the boys to be able to decide if they want to be soldiers. When I was in high school they were drafting the boys to go to 'Nam. It was a terrible thing, in my opinion. But alot of them did make it back.

posted by katie82640 at 12:21 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 31, 2006     #



And that they are giving big bonuses to volunteers. I didn't know about that.

Yeah, because the enlistment figures are way down. Duh.

posted by anonymouscoward at 12:39 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 31, 2006     #



Min. wage is what 5.40 now? I'm not sure

There's this new invention, called a search engine, that would have given you the CORRECT answer in SECONDS.

It amazes me how many lazy people use this here Internets thingy.

posted by anonymouscoward at 12:46 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 31, 2006     #



oh boy - do you feel better now? Hope so :-)

And have a wonderful day!!!

posted by katie82640 at 12:51 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 31, 2006     #



Attack Attack Attack! That's how we'll win elections! Heck, it's worked so far! Oh wait...no it hasn't. Hmmm..let's attack on more pointless things that don't matter! That'll get em!

Geesh, you must be perfect AC

posted by fequalsma73 at 12:55 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 31, 2006     #



Yeah, I may be one of those spoiled 'kids' living with their parents, but guess what, there are reasons that are none of your business; health and otherwise

fequalsma73: I don't know you or your situation personally and I'm honestly not attempting to be a jerk.
But I must say, when you make statements like "all union workers are bums" and then you volunteer the information that you live at home with your parents, I have to ask myself why I should treat some of your comments with any degree of seriousness.
Are you over, say, the age of 25? You say you have "health reasons." Are you handicapped? Can you drive a car? You must be healthy enough to make it downtown the last couple Saturdays to meet others from Toledo Talk. If you're taking care of elderly parents, that's certainly commendable, but couldn't you rent or own property within close proximity (walking distance even) of them and do the same?
These are personal questions, I understand, and feel free to tell me to buzz off. But making statements in a somewhat boastful fashion like "I make my money work for me", etc. and then hearing how you still live at home just doesn't lend alot of credibility to some of the viewpoints you express.
I apologize if you feel I've been too personal on this topic and I wish you well with your health issues.

posted by McCaskey at 12:56 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 31, 2006     #



Well, it is a bit personal, but that's ok. I just choose not to get into it. Everyone has their own special situation in life. I can only form opinions based on what I see, hear, and experience. That is all I have and all anyone has. Different experiences means different views. Without, we wouldn't have the joy of butting heads on here. :)
posted by fequalsma73 at 01:12 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 31, 2006     #



Fair enough.
Perhaps we can meet in person sometime.
Until then, I'll enjoy our give-and-take here.

posted by McCaskey at 01:21 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 31, 2006     #



Min. wage is what 5.40 now? I'm not sure

There's this new invention, called a search engine, that would have given you the CORRECT answer in SECONDS.

It amazes me how many lazy people use this here Internets thingy.
Ouch!!! posted by anonymouscoward at 01:46 P.M. EDT on Mon Jul 31, 2006 #


Dont take it personally Katie, i think he just has his panties in a bunch today. 8-)

posted by tm at 01:30 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 31, 2006     #



Ya - he went down in flames in another thread - so he did his drive by over here. That way it doesn't look like pouting.

fyi - this is a pretty cool blog for soldiers.

http://asoldiersblog.blogspot.com/

posted by katie82640 at 02:01 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 31, 2006     #



Oohhhh...12+ hour days! Big deal!

Completely ignorant, utterly insulting. Imagine: 12+ hour work days. In a factory. When it's this hot out. You know what that's like? Didn't think so.

Next ignorant comment:

Do you know how many hours the execs at businesses work? 24 hrs a day! They sit at home with their family and answer e-mails.

If some exec is pulling down six figures, he gets no sympathy from me if he has to take a phone call during dinner. Comes with the territory.

Much the same way things like back pain and carpal tunnel syndrome might come from working in a factory all day. It's an occupational hazard. I'm not saying the union/factory guys are deserving of extra sympathy either. You do what you gotta do to make a living and you have to accept that there's consequences, be they mental or physical. If the best example you've got is a stressed-out executive who might have to take a phone call during dinner (assuming that's one of the times he/she can even eat..I mean,if it's been a REALLY stressful day they might not be able to!), then leave the discussion now and let the grown-ups continue.

posted by MT1973 at 04:52 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 31, 2006     #



Ya - he went down in flames in another thread - so he did his drive by over here. That way it doesn't look like pouting.

Sure, whatever, and that magically explains why you can't take 30 seconds to find the RIGHT information and educate yourself, and also makes it acceptable for fequalsma to pull a drive-by on me in another thread.

I love it. There's me vs oh, half a dozen conservatrolls on this board. I must be doing something right if my comments are worth more of your time than bothering to research facts and not look stupid and ignorant is.

posted by anonymouscoward at 08:24 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 31, 2006     #



leave the discussion now and let the grown-ups continue

Sorry, I guess I haven't earned my freedom of speech, yet. Let me know when I get it.

We all have different opinions based on our experiences. Mine is one of union workers not working and complaining and of execs made out to be evil people who don't care about people. You think what you think and I will think what I think. Am I allowed to do that?

I must be doing something right if my comments are worth more of your time than bothering to research facts and not look stupid and ignorant is.

A/C--I think it is more of an entertainment value. Conservatives (not all, but many I have spoken with) often enjoy a liberal getting his panties in a bunch because they go off and it is funny.

Yes, I did end that parenthetical phrase with a preposition and I know it is grammatically incorrect. I do apologize.

posted by fequalsma73 at 11:00 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 31, 2006     #



You think what you think and I will think what I think. Am I allowed to do that?

Ask Karl Rove. All policy decisions for conservatives have to be cleared through him first.

posted by anonymouscoward at 11:55 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 31, 2006     #



I e-mailed K-Dog (Karl Rove) and he said something about I have to ask some Valerie chick. I'll find out tomorrow I guess. ;)
posted by fequalsma73 at 12:12 A.M. EST on Tue Aug 01, 2006     #



Sorry, I guess I haven't earned my freedom of speech, yet. Let me know when I get it.

No one has censored you. You retain the right to make yourself look more like a self-righteous blowhard who can dish it out but can't take it with every post you make.

posted by InfernalKeith at 08:46 A.M. EST on Tue Aug 01, 2006     #



There's me vs oh, half a dozen conservatrolls on this board.

Hey, what are pinkslip, Infernalkeith and myself? Chopped liver? LOL

posted by McCaskey at 10:12 A.M. EST on Tue Aug 01, 2006     #



You can add Mrs.Phoenix too! Go team go! Ahhhh, it's the heat...
posted by McCaskey at 10:14 A.M. EST on Tue Aug 01, 2006     #



I'm only posting because military retention rates were discussed. The recruit rate (people straight off the street) lagged for the Marine Corps for 1 month and then met recruiting goals. The Army experienced about 7 months of missed goals but is currently up 10% over the goal. The Air Force and Navy have not had any recruiting problems I have seen to date.

All the while during these missed recruitment goals retention for the department of defence was up 19%. That means even with an expanding force the military never dipped below the recommended table of organization (that's how many military members we need total).

If anything the contrary is true. There is almost 20% more people in the military than in 2000. Most military members attribute this to expanded pay and allowances for the military.

For instance, a GI's life insurance currently pays $400,000 w/ a $100,000 death benefit today as compared to $250,000 with a $25,000 death benefit in 2000. Without a significant jump in premiums.

It's also notable that the Armed Forces have lost more military members to automobile accidents than through action in Iraq.

posted by MikeyA at 02:37 P.M. EST on Tue Aug 01, 2006     #



but can't take it with every post you make.

How so? I can't take it in because I rebut? I don't succomb to an opposing view? Go ahead and take your cheap shots now. Get them in while you can!

posted by fequalsma73 at 03:26 P.M. EST on Tue Aug 01, 2006     #



It's also notable that the Armed Forces have lost more military members to automobile accidents than through action in Iraq.

Can you explain this? Are you saying that the Armed Forces have lost more than 2,500 soldiers in Iraq due to automobile accidents? Or did I miss something?

posted by pink_slip at 03:30 P.M. EST on Tue Aug 01, 2006     #



pink_slip - he's saying that more members of the armed forces died in car accidents than have died in Iraq. Not of car accidents in Iraq... But he doesn't say over what time period...

Can you clarify MikeyA?

posted by MaggieThurber at 03:58 P.M. EST on Tue Aug 01, 2006     #



Bbcmjeep43----here's more fishiness about 9/11 and Pentagon deception in the Washington Post:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/01/AR2006080101300.html

posted by pink_slip at 08:20 A.M. EST on Wed Aug 02, 2006     #



Just read an article explaining how the Kurdish "thank you" commercial was put together by the California PR firm Russo, Marsh, and Rogers. This firm is apparently an "A-list Republican PR firm". They also "founded the "Stop Michael Moore" campaign to discredit the film "Fahrenheit 9/11" and a group called "Move America Forward," which has brought parents of dead U.S. soldiers to be counter-protesters at peace demonstrations."
"The firm has also brought right-wing talk show hosts to Iraq on a "truth tour" to tell "the good news that the old-line liberal news media won't tell you about".

Propaganga

posted by pink_slip at 09:09 A.M. EST on Wed Aug 02, 2006     #



Propaganga

The right and right kind.

posted by fequalsma73 at 09:26 A.M. EST on Wed Aug 02, 2006     #



Again with a lie.

See who made the film. No "A-list Republican PR firm" check the facts yourself.

The KDC (Kurdistan Development Corporation)is partner to the Kurdistan Regional Government

THE KDC BOARD

Non-Executive Chairman
Ms Bayan Rahman
Daughter of the former Deputy Prime Minister of Iraqi-Kurdistan Sami Abdul Rahman, Ms Rahman was a journalist at the Financial Times, before joining the Kurdistan Regional Government. Ms Rahman's Full Biography

Non-Executive Director
Tom Hardie-Forsyth
A physicist and Fellow of the Atlantic Council who is a trusted friend and advisor to H.E. Masoud Barzani. He has spent the last 4 years working for the Civil Contingencies Secretariat at the UK Cabinet Office. He first became involved with Iraqi-Kurdistan when he went there as an army officer in 1991 and became instrumental in the 'Coalition Safe Haven Operation'. Mr Hardie-Forsyth was one of the Founders of the Kurdistan Development Corporation.


No 'A' list

posted by katie82640 at 02:27 P.M. EST on Wed Aug 02, 2006     #



The A-list Republican PR firm is a reference to Russo, Marsh, and Rogers. Not the KDC board. Read the article next time before you get so quick to refute. No lies, only facts.
posted by pink_slip at 02:55 P.M. EST on Wed Aug 02, 2006     #



Bbcmjeep43----here's more fishiness about 9/11 and Pentagon deception in the Washington Post:
I never did believe the whole story like they told it. They are hiding way too much information.

posted by Bbcmjeep43 at 03:58 P.M. EST on Wed Aug 02, 2006     #



Restated. Who made the movie? The KDC Board. No secret Republican club. 'Tis merely more smoke and bullshit.

See who made the film. No "A-list Republican PR firm" check the facts yourself.

The KDC (Kurdistan Development Corporation)is partner to the Kurdistan Regional Government

THE KDC BOARD

Non-Executive Chairman
Ms Bayan Rahman
Daughter of the former Deputy Prime Minister of Iraqi-Kurdistan Sami Abdul Rahman, Ms Rahman was a journalist at the Financial Times, before joining the Kurdistan Regional Government. Ms Rahman's Full Biography

Non-Executive Director
Tom Hardie-Forsyth
A physicist and Fellow of the Atlantic Council who is a trusted friend and advisor to H.E. Masoud Barzani. He has spent the last 4 years working for the Civil Contingencies Secretariat at the UK Cabinet Office. He first became involved with Iraqi-Kurdistan when he went there as an army officer in 1991 and became instrumental in the 'Coalition Safe Haven Operation'. Mr Hardie-Forsyth was one of the Founders of the Kurdistan Development Corporation.

No 'A' list

posted by katie82640 at 10:29 P.M. EST on Wed Aug 02, 2006     #



katie, what film?? Are you referring to the commercials?? You are still not getting it. Russo, Marsh, and Rogers is a California-based PR firm. They handle many Republican campaigns, according to their website. They also have a contract with the Kurdistan Regional Government, according to this site. Look at this quote: "Our job" with the Kurds, said Joe Wierzbicki, "is to do a public relations campaign that will essentially thank the American people for supporting the war in Iraq. We will also encourage Americans to visit and invest in the Kurdish region." Notice the name Joe Wierzbicki? He is listed as one of the principals of Russo, Marsh, and Rogers.

Here's another article explaining the connection:

http://www.workingforchange.com/article.cfm?ItemID=19468

NPR reported on it too: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5591649

Or perhaps the Washington Post?:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/25/AR2006072501254.html

OR HOW ABOUT FROM THE KURDISTAN WEBSITE ITSELF:

http://www.theotheriraq.com/courtinvestors.html

It sums it up: "The company producing these commercials is Russo Marsh and Rogers a media firm with strong ties to the Republican Party."

posted by pink_slip at 08:28 A.M. EST on Thu Aug 03, 2006     #



Well, anyone can do their own research and see the info MINUS the spin.

The KDC is a commercial development group that accepts NO money from the US. They have hired different companies to do different tasks while they try to develop commerical interests to rebuild their country.

Take a few items out here and there, do a Moore with the previously unassociated - and viola! You have a brand new baby conspiracy.

But if you would like to see what this region is doing to rebuild itself - go to the links and look around. Great business practices. They're hiring winners - have an agenda and getting great results.

posted by katie82640 at 09:03 A.M. EST on Thu Aug 03, 2006     #



More Kool-Aid please!
posted by pink_slip at 09:44 A.M. EST on Thu Aug 03, 2006     #



General John Abizaid, the head of US Central Command, publicly acknowledged today what many have long assumed: Iraq could descend into civil war.
posted by historymike at 02:27 P.M. EST on Thu Aug 03, 2006     #



Mike - the background isn't loading under your story. Least not here w/Firefox. Just fyi.
posted by katie82640 at 02:45 P.M. EST on Thu Aug 03, 2006     #



To historymike,
Using Netscape 7.2 your site does not load the background correctly. Using Internet Explorer it loads normally.

posted by Bbcmjeep43 at 03:04 P.M. EST on Thu Aug 03, 2006     #



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