New version of Toledo Talk

    July 30, 2007

The Simpsons take on military recruitment - If you are overly sensitive, you might not want to watch this as it was aired on Fox.

posted by charlatan to culture at 9:42 A.M. EST     (17 Comments)

Comments ...

Moderator, you can modify the post. I didn't want the video appearing on the frontpage. Kthx
posted by charlatan at 09:43 A.M. EST on Mon Jul 30, 2007     #

Pretty funny. Especially since the song played was "Communication Breakdown".
posted by MikeyA at 09:49 A.M. EST on Mon Jul 30, 2007     #

check this out:
posted by upso at 11:16 A.M. EST on Mon Jul 30, 2007     #

Sadly, this is all to similar to the techiques recruiters use.
posted by starling02 at 06:16 P.M. EST on Mon Jul 30, 2007     #

From CBS...

Military Lowers Standards To Fill Ranks
So the Army is accepting a growing number of new recruits with everythging from health and weight issues to lower academic test scores to criminal records. The number of incoming soldiers with prior felony arrests or convictions has more than tripled in the past five years. This year alone, the Army accepted an estimated 8,000 recruits with rap sheets, reports CBS News correspondent Kimberly Dozier.

Most are guilty of misdemeanors, but around 100 in the past year had felony convictions.

You can't be gay in the army, but you can be a convicted felon.

posted by SensorG at 03:08 P.M. EST on Tue Jul 31, 2007     #

Sadly, this is all to similar to the techiques recruiters use. Sadly starling believes this.

You can't be gay in the army, but you can be a convicted felon. Not every service is lowering their standards Sensor. In fact the other three are tightening them. The Blade ran a scathing article about the Marine Corps disallowing more recruits due to the new tatoo regulations because it denies them their "free speech" when they didn't investigate how limited a service members "free speech" actually is.

posted by MikeyA at 03:40 P.M. EST on Tue Jul 31, 2007     #

mikey - I was THERE, when they lied to my son. I was THERE, when I heard them fudge paperwork & small details about medical problems with my kids friends & other kids in the recruiting station. I was THERE, hearing & watching this shit, while the recruiters made jokes about it, at least half 8 - 10 times. Hell yes, I believe it - I witnessed it.
posted by starling02 at 05:55 P.M. EST on Tue Jul 31, 2007     #

Starling you speak in generalities.

I've heard people I've served with say they were "lied to" but when I pressed them everything they were told was the truth but didn't happen because the person I knew didn't follow through or wasn't qualified.

Hell even I could said I was "lied" to because they told me I had a "good chance" at becoming a legal administrator. When the shuffling came down I didn't get it but that doesn't mean I was lied to.

Besides what you do cite - medical problems, isn't even mentioned in the video yet you specifically said what was shown in the video was true. Please give examples.

The truth is recruiters are sales people. That is shown in the video and that's where it's accurate. A salesperson will always down play the negatives and enhance the positives because if they didn't they weren't good salespeople. If you go for it and then get buyers remorse it's not because you were "lied to" but because you didn't investigate enough on your own and bought into something you heart didn't want.

Under these circumstances you're "lied to" by any college or job recruiter, every salesman, you could even say any evangelist lied to you. Just cuz you bought doesn't make them bad.

posted by MikeyA at 07:34 P.M. EST on Tue Jul 31, 2007     #

mikey - I already gave a lot of indepth examples of what happened with my son, people he was in boot with, and some of his friends I'd taken to the recruiters office (their request) either here or on SB. Browse if you want - but I'm not taking the time to rehash it again. Suffice it to say, yes, the recruiters did fudge & lie & omit vital medical issues that should have prevented them from recruiting these kids. My son had 3 such medical issues. I sat there & listened & watched as the recruiters joked about how 'we do this all the time'.
posted by starling02 at 12:51 A.M. EST on Wed Aug 01, 2007     #

Well what was the results of the investigation Starling?

Because you make several accusations of misleading, lieing on federal documents, and either changing or forging medical documents. These are serious charges.

Now I know as a good citizen I'm sure you would have reported this to the Inspector General and an investigation took place. I doubt you wouldn't have just ignored some gross violations of federal law and only mentioned them on a chat room instead of to people who could actually do something about it.

posted by MikeyA at 09:43 A.M. EST on Thu Aug 02, 2007     #

Starling is spot on; Recruiters have gotten very creative the last few years.

Army Recruiters Say They Feel Pressure to Bend Rules

Army Recruiters Accused of Misleading Students to Get Them to Enlist

Army Recruiters Caught Lying

Amid Scandal, Recruitment Halts

Gangs Spreading In The Military

posted by SensorG at 10:42 A.M. EST on Thu Aug 02, 2007     #

What's unique about your post Sensor is they all are about the Army yet this stereotype is applied to the military as a whole.

My point is when things like this occur people who witness it, like Starling, are OBLIGATED to report it to prevent it. Unfortunately most times because their child could possibly benefit from it they don't report it or just don't report it for whatever reason. Then they go on to further the stereotype across the board on all aspects of the military.

Unfortunately this gives all recruiters a bad name and most don't condone this behavior.

If starling reported the behavior then starling deserves a debt of gratitude. If starling didn't then starling aided and abetted to a crime by not reporting it.

Starling made a general comment about recruiters as a whole across services as a whole. Your own posts reinforce my assertion that the problems are limited to one service and I challenge that most services are vigilant in preventing these problems.

posted by MikeyA at 10:50 A.M. EST on Thu Aug 02, 2007     #

My bad...I may have googled Army.

Let's see...

When Marine recruiters go way beyond the call

Marine recruiters accused of rape: California high school students file suit

AP probe looks at recruiters' misconduct

This one covers all the branches... you can use google; it's hard to see the system is messed up.

posted by SensorG at 01:06 P.M. EST on Thu Aug 02, 2007     #

Ok Sensor.

First off, two of the articles you cite are about sexual misconduct. Now I doubt that you actually think that the military condones sexual misconduct especially when they have multiple statutes under the uniform code of military justice that deal with sexual misconduct that range from adultery, sodomy, rape, sexual assault, conduct unbecoming, and general article to name a few. In fact the military's laws on sexual conduct far exceed those of civilian law.

To quote your article "--Across all services, one out of 200 frontline recruiters -- the ones who deal directly with young people -- was disciplined for sexual misconduct last year."

I'd be willing to bet that this is better ratio than teachers who've had sexual misconduct incidents after reading the local paper and it's more a reflection of our society as a whole than the military.

The one article you did cite that actually shows recruiting techniques you'll note that at first it was just phone calls but progressed after the kid showed interest. This is typical. My own mother didn't want me enlisting when I did (I was 21) and tried to stop me. Two years later when my brother did she knew more about the military and encouraged him instead of hindered him.

But the article states two incidents where the young man went willing to the recruiting center. The recruiters didn't kidnap him. He obviously went willingly.

Also he was told "He could pursue his love of chemistry. He could serve anywhere he chose and leave any time he wanted on an "apathy discharge" if he didn't like it. And he wouldn't have to go to Iraq if he didn't want to." guess what some would say these are lies but they're true.

NBC Marines often end up becoming chemists or nuclear regulators. I've seen people get out on apathy and general discharges when they expressed they wanted out and their work and health would suffer if they didn't. And if he didn't want to go to war he could always apply as a contientious objector.

In fact only at one point in your article did you actually show a recruiter acting improper which was when one said "This time, when Axel said, "Not interested," the sarge turned surly, snapping, "You're making a big (bleeping) mistake!".

Now this is worthy of a preliminary investigation but also note that this is a third party quote. Someone said that someone said that someone said this. And many times these end up not panning out when they're investigated.

posted by MikeyA at 06:05 P.M. EST on Thu Aug 02, 2007     #

I've been seeing this topic floating up and down the "recently commented" column like feces in a commode.

And that's where it should stay - in the commode.

MikeyA, if they don't believe you, it's because they refuse to consider the truth.

posted by paulhem at 06:38 A.M. EST on Fri Aug 03, 2007     #

funny Paul - I was thinking the same thing about Mike...
posted by SensorG at 06:57 A.M. EST on Fri Aug 03, 2007     #

Paul notice how Sensor didn't challenge the merits in my post. "they refuse to consider the truth." I believe it's more they don't understand the military because I hear comments like this. "You can't be gay in the army, but you can be a convicted felon. " I'm sure it'd surprise him to know that I've served with many gay people. The official policy is that homosexuality and really any sexuality for that matter should be a private matter but when it becomes public knowledge is the only point when it's subject to regulation.

Their misconceptions lead to false stereotypes which they have no problems pushing on here.

posted by MikeyA at 07:28 A.M. EST on Fri Aug 03, 2007     #

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