It proves most of the burbs are doing better, however I'm not sure if you can fairly compare Toledo to the outlying areas.
Cleveland got a 2, and Columbus a 3, Dayton a 1, Akron a 3
posted by psyche777 at 02:43 P.M. EST on Wed Aug 17, 2005 #
What's interesting is the drop in the number of districts and schools rated excellent.
posted by psyche777 at 02:46 P.M. EST on Wed Aug 17, 2005 #
I don't see the relevance in hyping Toledo's "performance" by comparing it to other large cities in the state. When a family moves into the Toledo area, and they're looking for a school district to move to, they won't be considering Cleveland, Dayton, Youngstown, and the rest. Toledo's competition is the surrounding schools. When TPS officials compare Toledo to other large ubran centers, they have lowered the bar for themselves and the students.
Number of standards met by Ohio's largest cities:
• Akron — (3)
• Canton — (3)
• Cincinnati — (3)
• Cleveland — (2)
• Columbus — (3)
• Dayton — (1)
• Toledo — (4)
• Youngstown — (1)
Going by just the number of standards met, all of those schools are on Academic Emergency. But the rating system also considers AYP.
Adequate Yearly Progress (AYP): The final goal is for all students to reach the proficient level in reading and mathematics by 2013-14. Until then, yearly goals are set requiring a specific percentage of students in 10 student groups, such as African American, Hispanic, and White students, to reach proficiency in these subjects. For the school to meet AYP, goals for each student group must be met. If any goal is missed, the school does not meet AYP for the year.
So yes, Toledo is the best of the worst. Congrats. Time to celebrate. Vote for another levy.
TPS's goal should be to quit comparing Toledo to other large cities and try to meet at least 10-15 of the standards. Think of the accolades the district would receive if they did that. Reaching a goal like that might keep families from moving out of Toledo. I doubt very many parents in the suburbs are thinking of moving back into the Toledo school district because TPS scored the best of the big cities.
posted by jr at 03:07 P.M. EST on Wed Aug 17, 2005 #
I think you missed my point jr, it's obvious the larger public school districts are having similar problems.
Hence, what is the solution for all of them rather than comparing Toledo only to the smaller school districts that surround them.
I think it is fair to point out this is not just a Toledo only problem. I'm not advising let Toledo skate on it, only offering up equal comparison to demonstrate that ALL the large public school systems in Ohio seem to need to find a better way to deal with this.
posted by psyche777 at 03:14 P.M. EST on Wed Aug 17, 2005 #
And the average amount TPS spends per pupil is over $10,000 per year...higher than all other Lucas County school systems - by about 50%.
I'd look at the leadership of the school boards in the large urban areas - primarily Democrats who are more concerned with teacher contracts and union endorsements along with self-esteem over learning and accountability...
you know the definition of stupidity...doing the same thing over and over again (re-electing these people) but expecting different results (better performance in our schools).
posted by intrepid at 04:22 P.M. EST on Wed Aug 17, 2005 #
I had to run the numbers to satisfy my curiosity. Intrepid's assessment is accurate in total expenses, where TPS is #2 behind Ottawa Hills.
In per-pupil instructional expenses, TPS is in the middle of the pack, spending about $1,000 less per pupil than Ottawa Hills, but almost $1,600 more than Anthony Wayne.
IMHO, TPS could certainly improve in the Administration category. TPS has the second-highest admin cost, but remember that it is about 30 times as large (by enrollment) as Ottawa Hills. TPS spends about $100 a student more than fellow city district Washington Local. That's over $3 million when you consider TPS has about 32,000 students. If TPS could get down to the $800-$900 per student in admin costs that suburban districts are spending, that's a lot of money to balance the budget.
Building costs are high for TPS, but the new buildings (greater energy efficiency) should bring these costs more in line with other districts in the next ten years.
Per-pupil spending, by district (FY04):
Ottawa Hills - $10,650
TPS- $10,279
Maumee - $10,047
Oregon - $9,278
Sylvania - $9, 043
Washington Local - $8,982
Springfield - $8,547
Anthony Wayne - $7,426
Source: ODE: http://www.ode.state.oh.us/school_finance/data/PerPupilExpenditures.xls
Administrative costs per pupil (FY 04):
Ottawa Hills - $1,261
TPS- $1,176
Maumee - $1,152
Oregon - $851
Sylvania - $949
Washington Local - $1,076
Springfield - $860
Anthony Wayne - $988
Source: http://www.ode.state.oh.us/school_finance/data/PerPupilAdministrative.xls
Building costs per pupil (FY 04):
Ottawa Hills - $1,334
TPS- $1,817
Maumee - $1,646
Oregon - $2,048
Sylvania - $1,952
Washington Local - $1,679
Springfield - $1,668
Anthony Wayne - $1,572
Source: http://www.ode.state.oh.us/school_finance/data/PerPupilBuildingSupport.xls
Instruction costs per pupil (FY 04):
Ottawa Hills - $6,778
TPS- $5,727
Maumee - $6,147
Oregon - $5,284
Sylvania - $4,880
Washington Local - $5,204
Springfield - $5,131
Anthony Wayne - $4,153
Source: http://www.ode.state.oh.us/school_finance/data/PerPupilInstructional.xls
posted by historymike at 06:26 P.M. EST on Wed Aug 17, 2005 #
Not to be nit picky but it's not 50% more, though Toledo does spend more.
So I got curious (not to upset Jr) but to see what the other large public schools spent
Per student:
Akron 10,129
Cleveland 11,121
Dayton 11,772
Columbus 10,758
Youngstown 11,302
I'd bet that their administrative costs are probably high
Akron 1,047
Cleveland 1,085
Dayton 1,528
Columbus 1,436
Youngstown 1,269
So we know now spending more doesn't necessitate getting more
:-)
posted by psyche777 at 06:42 P.M. EST on Wed Aug 17, 2005 #
Thanks for getting the actual numbers...the figures I saw came from UT's Urban Affairs Center and were in a report put together for a federal grant application. Those numbers were older and these are much more accurate.
I'll be making sure the report I saw has the current amounts in it...you guys are GREAT - THANKS!
posted by intrepid at 06:48 P.M. EST on Wed Aug 17, 2005 #
Mike is great, all I did was click on the links he provided and copy from the column.
:-)
posted by psyche777 at 06:50 P.M. EST on Wed Aug 17, 2005 #
And just think, a teacher fresh out of college with a Bachelor's or even a Master's degree can get a higher starting salary at Toledo Public than at Ottawa Hills.
"TPS pays a higher starting salary than Ottawa Hills for teachers with a Bachelors degree. But OH has a much higher average salary at $60,621 versus TPS's $45,968. With a Master's degree, the starting salaries between the two are about the same. With just a Bachelors degree and 27 years experience, TPS pays $55,577 and OH pays $53,091. With a Masters degree and 27 years experience, OH pays $70,788 and TPS pays $60,595. From the salary figures, it appears OH as a greater relative percentage of experienced teachers with a Masters degree than TPS."
posted by jr at 09:07 P.M. EST on Wed Aug 17, 2005 #
Somehow I think given the difference is a little over a thousand for the BA, I don't think money alone is going to make them select TPS over Ottawa Hills.
:-)
What this to me demonstrates is this whole No Child Left Behind grading system might not be effective for larger public schools. Since it appears none of them have exactly stellar ratings here in Ohio.
posted by psyche777 at 10:09 P.M. EST on Wed Aug 17, 2005 #
Psyche, careful with statements like that :)
"NCLB grading system might not be effective for larger public schools."
That's just the kind of statement that will get you criticized for "the soft bigotry of low expectations" by those evil Republicans!
posted by intrepid at 07:16 A.M. EST on Thu Aug 18, 2005 #
With just a Bachelors degree and 27 years experience:
TPS pays $55,577 (4/23 standards met)
Ottawa Hills pays $53,091 (22/23 standards met)
When Ottawa Hills and many other school districts have a new school levy on the ballot, the school has a reason for it to be supported. That can't be said of TPS. Year after year after year, either a new levy or a renewel levy is on the November ballot. And after decades of millions of taxpayer dollars, all we get for our taxes is 4 out 23?
If I'm going to be taxed for a public school, I'd like a decent ROI, and that ain't TPS. Toledo Public Schools gives no reason for the public to support another new levy that I think is coming up this November.
When TPS scores 4 out 23, what right do Sanders and the rest have in attacking charter schools?
Sanders said of charters: "If they get rid of charter schools in the state and we get those 5,000 students back, we are back on track."
What a joke.
posted by jr at 10:11 A.M. EST on Thu Aug 18, 2005 #
"Kristy Voss was surprised this week to read about the poor results and ratings given to Ohio's charter schools by state education officials. Her two children, who both attend Winterfield Academy on Wenz Road, have seen their test scores "skyrocket" since enrolling at the charter school a year ago."
"Charter school critics contend that Ohio Department of Education data released Wednesday are further evidence the schools are failing to educate."
"Statewide, 264 charter schools operated during the 2004-2005 school year, but only 130 received a rating. Nearly 60 percent of those were ranked in academic emergency - the lowest possible designation."
"The Coalition for Public Education, an organization of teacher unions and other educators, held a news conference in Columbus yesterday and called for greater charter school scrutiny."
"Ron Jackson, chairman of the [Englewood] school's board, said he was disappointed to be in academic emergency, but noted the school has made progress since it opened in 2002."
Many charter schools have only opened within the past few years. How long has TPS been around? The charters need to be given a chance. 4 standards met out of 23, even a TPS student can do the math and determine that's a failing grade. Maybe TPS needs to come under more scrutiny.
"Allison Perz, executive director of the Ohio Council of Community Schools - which sponsors 45 charter schools statewide and all of Leona Group's schools - said many charter school students are several years behind grade level when they first transfer in from traditional public schools. She insisted charter schools have made great strides, but post poor grades because they have taken the poorest-performing students away from traditional schools."
Ms. Brainiac, Francine Lawrence, president of the Toledo Federation of Teachers union said of Allison Perz's statements:
"Their crybaby claim is without foundation. The charter school results have not improved … and the state is not holding them accountable."
How dare the president of the TFT waste time accusing other schools of not improving. How in the hell, Francine, do you account for 4 out of 23? Some kind of shaky stat allows TPS to claim Continuous Improvement. In 2003, TPS met 6 of the 22 standards. So who else is not improving, Francine? When will the public start holding TPS accountable?
Amazing isn't it? In two years, TPS goes from 6/22 to 4/23, and yet the district is raised two notches from Academic Emergency to Continuous Improvement. Now that's some funky math.
Maybe Francine and Sanders should quit their own whining about other schools and try to do something to help TPS. Hey, how about that Working to the Rule idea? Great one, Francine.
posted by jr at 11:35 A.M. EST on Thu Aug 18, 2005 #
The shameful cheerleading for TPS by the Blade.
Lemmon said, "The city of Toledo often has trouble sustaining momentum. Thankfully, that's not the case with Toledo Public Schools, which received a "continuous improvement" rating from the Ohio Department of Education again this year."
TPS met 5 of the 27 standards in 2002, 6 out of 22 in 2003, don't know about 2004's report card, and 4 out of 23 in 2005. The Blade will do a story about school food, but where's the story about what a scam this "continuous improvement" rating is?
posted by jr at 10:37 P.M. EST on Sun Aug 21, 2005 #
I understand that today the TPS school board meets to decide on school closings and a tax levy for November...
who didn't see that one coming?
posted by intrepid at 08:59 A.M. EST on Mon Aug 22, 2005 #
Who else remembers when the Ohio State Supreme Court ruled that Ohio's school funding program was unconstitutional? Why is it that we continue to allow our legislators (after several YEARS I might add) to ignore our constitutional rights?
Personally, I feel that every time your local school district tries to get blood from the turnip we should vote NO. I realize this hurts our children -- but as an American who remembers why we originally came to this country -- why are we allowing this disparity and blantantly obvious idiocy to continue?
Some of you here are much more intelligent than I....besides writing to our congress persons and senators(a lot of good that has done me so far) how can we stop these jerks?
posted by unknowncomment at 12:29 P.M. EST on Mon Aug 22, 2005 #
Seeing that an audit from an outside firm (preferrable from someone way far away, and not easily bribed) is not going to happen, might I suggest twisting the screws on the TPS hierachy and make them work for their money?
Every avenue has been provided to this free-spending quorum to educate your children, yet they've failed at every endeavour.
It's pathetic to see the excuses fall from Manhattan and Elm when Toledo SHOULD be the pillar of education these suburban school districts strive for.
Time to hold those in position accountable, from the Super's office down. I figure if shit slides, enough holes will get filled.
posted by BrianInFlorida at 12:56 P.M. EST on Mon Aug 22, 2005 #
Actually - forget holding the superintendent accountable - hold his bosses - the TPS school board accountable. Don't reelect any of them who are already serving.
Now, who's going to sign up to work on the campaigns for those running for school board who are not incumbents?
BrianInFlorida - since it would be a bit hard for you to work on one of the campaigns, you can just send money :)
posted by intrepid at 01:08 P.M. EST on Mon Aug 22, 2005 #
:-D All I'd need is an address
check my profile for mailing instructions!
posted by BrianInFlorida at 01:26 P.M. EST on Mon Aug 22, 2005 #
Here is an address: http://www.abcfortps.com
posted by chrismyers at 11:22 A.M. EST on Tue Aug 23, 2005 #
Aug 23 Blade story:
"The Toledo Board of Education agreed on a plan that could eventually close seven schools, including Libbey High School, and decided to ask voters in November for a new 7.99-mill operating levy, as well as to renew a 2.5-mill capital-improvement tax."
"School leaders said the proposed school closures could still be averted if student enrollment for the district increases."
Why would student enrollment increase? Toledo's population decreases every year. A story earlier this summer projected continued enrollment declines at TPS for the next several years.
From this story:
"Last year's school district student population was less than 33,000. Enrollment projections show the district could lose 7,000 more students by 2011, bringing its total student population to about 26,000."
Superintendent Sanders launched the first of what will be many scare-tactic bombs between now and November:
"We're in desperate need of these funds. The financial viability of the district is at stake here, and we are in a position where we need to go to the taxpayers for help."
More from the news story:
"A prior plan included closing Beverly and Marshall elementary schools, but the school board last night restored plans to rebuild those buildings."
What? Why?
Finally ...
"About 5,500 Toledo Public students were lost to charter schools last academic year, and 1,500 more are expected to leave this year."
Lost? What a weird word-choice. A concerned parent pulls their child out of TPS and enrolls the kid in a charter school and that's considered "lost?" If these taxes pass, I predict more Toledoans will be "lost" to the suburbs.
posted by jr at 03:23 P.M. EST on Tue Aug 23, 2005 #
Why not just whack some funds from the source. I'm sure Dr. Sanders and Co. wouldn't mind contributing to the cause, seeing they are obviously WAY overpaid for their positions with the results of the Ohio School District Ratings.
Why mess with the teachers? They're doing everything they can do with what little the school board provides. It's too bad the Teacher's Union dosen't have students needs in mind either, with what Ms. Perz says Charter Schools receive from fresh TPS failures.
It's great to see such comments from people who's supposed to have things in control.
posted by BrianInFlorida at 06:33 P.M. EST on Tue Aug 23, 2005 #
Aug 26 Blade story about the Toledo-Oregon dispute over the proposed coking plant. Seems like this should be posted in a topic about unigov and not in a topic about Toledo Public Schools. But ...
"To make a long story short, Oregon has held that the 51 1/2 acre proposed site sits within Oregon; Toledo says that the creek, the traditional border, was moved improperly over the years by "the hand of man," cutting off Toledo land. This remains a crisis for both cities because while their respective mayors, Jack Ford and Marge Brown, have agreed to a 50-50 split of tax dollars generated by the plant, the two school districts have not."
"Oregon Schools want the same 50-50 split the cities have accepted, while Toledo Public Schools insists on something closer to an 80-20 split."
posted by jr at 07:10 A.M. EST on Fri Aug 26, 2005 #
Ah. TPS is willing to give DaimlerChrysler a 10-year waiver of property taxes, but can't live with only 50% of the tax revenues from the coking plant?
They need to iron this out. It would be stupid for one entity like TPS to hold up the agreement.
(historymike still has reservations about the environmental impact of the coking plant, but that is another issue altogether. He is also still curious about mystery man Frank Stella, the Detroit restaurant equipment wholesaler who is the front for a murky investment arrangement)
posted by historymike at 09:01 A.M. EST on Fri Aug 26, 2005 #
Sep 1 Blade story:
"Toledo and Oregon are one step closer to bringing a $350 million coke processing plant to the area after school districts from both cities agreed yesterday to split tax revenues. The districts will split the expected $750,000 generated by the plant in a revenue-sharing agreement that divides the total in a roughly 58-42 split."
posted by jr at 08:16 A.M. EST on Thu Sep 01, 2005 #
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