Wow. That is all I can say.
posted by MrsPhoenix at 08:13 P.M. EST on Sat Aug 26, 2006 #
Sorry, I'm not able to grasp what your trying to say.
posted by ToledoLatina at 01:12 A.M. EST on Sun Aug 27, 2006 #
Well, purnhrt, it's a good thing then that the TPS has a literal army of administrators (each pulling down $90K+) who can keep track of these complications for you. After all, what else are they good for?
posted by GuestZero at 02:22 A.M. EST on Sun Aug 27, 2006 #
ToledoLatina, I believe purnhrt is saying there will be no consistency in the District uniform policy - not even within the confines of a single school structure. Scott is STILL Scott High School, so why have each "mini" school establish its different own dress code? The students are still Scott High School students. The Early College School, while a TPS district school, are exempt from adhering to the dress code in order for their students to "look like college students"....well most college students don't "dress up" for their classes (T-shirts and tight azz jeans are usually on the menu), so is that really a good idea? 7th & 8th graders will be split between younger and older academic peers too soon...yes, I see why purnhrt believes this is all a recipe for disaster!
posted by MrsPhoenix at 06:49 A.M. EST on Sun Aug 27, 2006 #
You know, initially I thought maybe a uniform policy wouldn't be a bad idea. Now though, I think they went way overboard.
It actually costs parents MORE this way. You have to buy the school uniform clothes, then, since the kids won't wear those clothes anywhere else, you have to buy them an "outside of school" wardrobe.
Maybe we should just make them wear those orange numbered jumpsuits they wear at the county jail :)
posted by JeepMaker at 09:33 A.M. EST on Sun Aug 27, 2006 #
Thanks MrsPhoenix, I get it now. Thanks goodness my children are in a charter school. But high school is coming up for 2 of them. I would not like the idea of having to buy uniforms for one and the other get away with wearing what they want. Oh yet another reason for me to get grays or start pulling hair.
posted by ToledoLatina at 12:08 P.M. EST on Sun Aug 27, 2006 #
TPS designed a district-wide high school dress code that will be almost impossible to enforce. Does it make any difference in the students' learning experience if their socks match? Will they be punished if they don't? They should be, if TPS felt that was important enough to include in the dress code. My niece, who was not in the TPS school district, liked to wear socks that didn't match. She was a stellar student and athlete at her high school.
posted by rebelrebel at 07:43 A.M. EST on Mon Aug 28, 2006 #
I had thought that a 'policy' that was not evenly enforced was discriminatory.
When the 'zero tolerance' policy for fighting was explained to me, I was told that all children involved in a fight - even if someone they'd never met before hit them from behind - they would be suspended for fighting. The rationale behind that was supposed to be to avoid the appearance of discrimination.
So how do they have such a wide-sweeping policy such as a dress code and then enforce it with different rules for different groups?
Is it a policy or isn't it?
posted by katie82640 at 08:24 A.M. EST on Mon Aug 28, 2006 #
I've been a TPS parent since the uniforms started 3 years ago. Although wearing uniforms does kind of squash the morning arguments about what they are going to wear to school, I feel that is where any good point about these uniforms ends! I've had my child wear bottoms for cooler weather in the fall semester just fine, only to be told in the spring that those bottoms are unacceptable. I've been called by both of my childrens schools to bring in something "appropriate" only to seen other students wearing something almost identical when I bring in the more appropriate clothing. It is a hit and miss policy that causes more problems than it is worth and as jeepmaker posted it costs double to clothe your kids as NO ONE wears these clothes in real life. On top of that you also have to buy double shoes since tennis shoes are not acceptable uniform shoes. It would be understandable if TPS was doing better and was a sought after school, but with where our ratings are and the fact that more kids are fleeing the district rather than coming to it, I personally feel it was a ridiculous decision that was made!
posted by ThoughtsOnTPS at 08:34 A.M. EST on Mon Aug 28, 2006 #
This is the third school year for the TPS uniform policy in grades K-6. Why is it possible to enforce a uniform policy in the early grades, but it won't be possible to enforce such a policy in high school?
"Does it make any difference in the students' learning experience if their socks match?"
TPS supposedly has info that shows a uniform policy does improve the learning environment. Contact TPS for this data.
From the TPS website:
"A decision to adopt uniforms has been made because Toledo Public Schools believes in developing policies and practices that promote a positive academic, social, and behavioral climate, and credible data indicates that the adoption of student uniform dress codes can improve a school district's overall educational climate."
At the student level, mileage will vary in this new learning environment, and a student's performance is probably most affected by the educational involvement or lack of involvement by the student's parents or guardians.
An let's not forget that the majority of parents in TPS support a uniform policy. From that December 2003 posting:
"Nearly 80 percent of parents who responded to a Toledo Public Schools questionnaire at teacher conferences last week favored a district-wide uniform policy."
The uniform policy started in the elementary schools in September 2004, but before it began:
"Four Toledo elementary schools currently require uniforms for pupils: Grove Patterson, Lincoln Academy for Boys, Old West End, and Stewart Academy for Girls."
The above is from a December 2003 Blade story.
From a July 2004 Toledo Talk posting:
"Thousands of TPS elementary students will qualify for free uniforms, which are required this year. For children headed back to a Toledo public school this year, those in grades kindergarten through 6 are now required to wear uniforms. You may be able to get those uniforms for free. The uniforms include collared shirts in blue, white or yellow, as well as pants or jumpers in khaki or navy. Of the 17,000 students who will need uniforms this year, 14,000 will qualify to get them for free. School starts August 31 but parents have until October 22 to get those uniforms."
A student doesn't need a uniform policy or a dress code to do well in school. But such a policy does not hurt the student, and evidence, apparently, exists that shows a student's learning experience improves with a uniform policy/dress code.
If it doesn't hurt the student, and it could help the student, and it saves parents money, what's the problem? The key here is getting students to focus on what's really important: math, English, science, history, etc., and not using a school day as a fashion show.
If a uniform policy/dress code causes more students to focus a little more on coursework, how is that bad? And when TPS is an eyelash away from being rated Academic Emergency, something needs to be tried.
posted by jr at 08:57 A.M. EST on Mon Aug 28, 2006 #
fyi - the money to cover the cost of uniforms for eligible familes is from TANF ...Temporary Assistance to Needy Families - federal dollars that come into the counties through the states.
When TPS instituted a uniform policy, the committee that helps develop the plan for the expenditures of TANF funds included vouchers for the uniforms because they were allowed under federal law.
jr asked: "If it doesn't hurt the student, and it could help the student, and it saves parents money, what's the problem?"
It saves some parents money only on the surface. Tax dollars pay for those uniforms.
posted by MaggieThurber at 09:27 A.M. EST on Mon Aug 28, 2006 #
If you were not part of the parents who responded to the questionnaire at the parent teacher conferences that jr refers to, you would understand how that data that they refer to, means nothing. At most schools the questionnaires were not easy to find, the questions were such that there wasn't much choice in anything but the outcome that TPS wanted to get, it was not a school-wide survey but just parents who came to the connferences, etc. I could go on and on. That 80% data results doesn't mean much to me. It was inevitable that TPS was going to make this happen. They should have been more like Springfield. They came up with a reasonable dress code and included all the players in the decision making. TPS wanted something to give to the parents (uniforms, instead of education) to compete with charter schools.
posted by rebelrebel at 09:46 A.M. EST on Mon Aug 28, 2006 #
Sorry. On my last post I meant to say, If you were not part of the parents who responded to the questionnaire at the parent teacher conferences that jr refers to, you would "not" understand how that data that they refer to, means nothing.
posted by rebelrebel at 09:58 A.M. EST on Mon Aug 28, 2006 #
Maggie, I don't understand the point of your last two sentences. Tax dollars pay for just about everything associated with the public schools.
Let's not heat the schools in the winter time, since that will save tax dollars. I'm guessing heat in the winter is needed to improve a school district's overall educational climate.
About TPS's uniform policy, I also said: "And when TPS is an eyelash away from being rated Academic Emergency, something needs to be tried."
The status quo hasn't worked. What's wrong with trying a uniform policy, no matter how it's funded, when TPS claims:
"... credible data indicates that the adoption of student uniform dress codes can improve a school district's overall educational climate."
When a student graduates from TPS and can barely read, how much will that cost tax payers? The cycle needs to be broken. More kids need to stay in school, graduate, and become productive members of society. If that happens, in the long run, it will probably save tax dollars. A school uniform policy could play a small part in helping TPS students do better in school.
I support the radical idea of paying parents to educate their kids. Why not try a three-year pilot test? Of course, it will use taxpayer dollars, but, again, something needs to change.
posted by jr at 10:02 A.M. EST on Mon Aug 28, 2006 #
jr - was just clarifying that the parents weren't getting uniforms for 'free.' Most of the parents who qualify have jobs and their tax dollars (along with yours and mine) are paying for the uniforms.
Agree with supporting a uniform or dress code policy...
posted by MaggieThurber at 10:06 A.M. EST on Mon Aug 28, 2006 #
From my march 9 2006 post on school uniforms - worth repeating -
Pick up the book "The School Uniform Movement and what it tells us about American Education" by David Brunsma. He is an assistant professor of sociology at the University of Missouri. He is considered a leading expert on school uniforms and their impact on learning. He did one of the largest longitudinal studies on the impact of uniforms on behavior and learning.
Excerpted from his book...."The bottom line appears to be this: Despite the media coverage, despite the anecdotal meanderings of politicians, community members, educators, board members, parents and students, uniforms have not been effective at attacking the very outcomes and issues they were assumed to aid:
1. Reduction of violence and behavioral problems;
2. Fostering school unity and improving the learning environment;
3. Reducing social pressures and leveling status differentials;
4. Increasing student self-esteem and motivation;
5. Saving parents money on clothing for their children;
6. Improving attendance, and, ultimately,
7. Improving academic achievement."
So why do schools implement school uniform policies? Because it is an easy fix that they think will pull the wool over the eyes of the public and let them escape their true responsibility - creating an environment where children can learn. That is exactly what happened in TPS. It was and is all spin and PR to make us think they did something!
TPS had a dress code policy before the uniform policy was adopted. They refused or were unable to enforce it.
ORC 3313.665. Conditions for adoption of dress code or school uniform section C) No specific uniform shall be required in any school unless the board includes in the policy adopted under this section a procedure to assist parents of economically disadvantaged students to obtain uniforms. This procedure may include using school district funds or funds from other sources to provide this assistance.
So if you adopt a mandatory uniform policy as TPS did, you must provide financial assistance for disadvantaged students. In TPS' case, that meant those students receiving free and reduced lunches.
TPS got almost a million dollars from Lucas County Family Services the first year to implement uniforms. I’m not sure how much they spent and I’m not sure how much they spent last year. We have asked for the information.
Regardless of where they get the money, it is our tax dollars. Should we now be responsible for clothing kids as part of the school’s (and our) obligation?
Uniforms are an excuse for school districts like TPS to dodge their real responsibilities. Tax dollars should not be spent on school uniforms! Adopt a good dress code and enforce it!
Here is a link to an interesting article - http://theparentsite.com/parenting/schooluniforms.asp
The School Uniform Movement and What It Tells Us about American Education: A Symbolic Crusade
I'd be the first one on the uniform bandwagon if there was even a shred of proof that it works. TPS administrators lied to us when they implemented the policy. It was all to get us distracted from the real issues. Uniforms won't solve the problem but they will cost us money - our tax dollars!!!
TPS has bigger problems than whether kids can wear tennis shoes or not.
And thanks Maggie for telling us where the money came from this year. At some point no outside entity will fund this program and TPS will have to cut teachers, text books, etc. to fund uniforms. Don't know about others, but I vote for teachers and text books!
posted by sflagg at 02:10 P.M. EST on Mon Aug 28, 2006 #
I vote for teachers and text books too! After reading The Blade article a few weeks ago about uniforms at TPS, it appears TPS has a department of uniforms and has hired someone to direct it. I would rather have used my tax dollars for another teacher than someone like that. It also takes a lot of personnel to keep track of who qualifies for uniforms, to distribute them and to enforce this policy.
posted by rebelrebel at 02:51 P.M. EST on Mon Aug 28, 2006 #
A side note about TANF. Temporary Assistance for Needy Families is not 100% federal funds. The State and County levels of government also contribute tax dollars into this pot. If memory serves me correctly the state match is much higher than the county match, but I think the county share is approximately ten percent.
It's been a few years since I last worked in that system.
posted by RolandHansen at 07:02 P.M. EST on Thu Aug 31, 2006 #
Roland - the local share is for overall operation of the local JFS department...not just matching for TANF. The state determines, based upon complicated formulas, how much the local match for the department is. They try to make sure that the federal funds are spent on direct services.
posted by MaggieThurber at 08:55 P.M. EST on Thu Aug 31, 2006 #
Syndicate ToledoTalk
