Hmm. Didn't we just beat up Sykes, Barnett and Steel for launching a factional effort by themselves without the inclusion of the other persons on the Board? The implication was that they broke the open meetings law by doing so. If so, then how is it any different when Fisher and Torres go off on their own like this?
At any rate, that aside, I'll get on the site and post just about the only question that I have about the TPS:
“Where can I get a list of administrator job titles so that as a taxpayer, I can determine the extent that my tax dollars are being wasted on useless administration?”
posted by GuestZero at 04:51 A.M. EST on Tue Dec 19, 2006 #
how is it any different when Fisher and Torres go off on their own like this?
GZ, one difference is that Fisher and Torres do not make a quorum. If I recall correctly, that was one of the issues with the Three for Children announcement.
posted by valbee at 09:03 A.M. EST on Tue Dec 19, 2006 #
GZ - you have a point about fractional efforts. However, with 3 it is majority of the board and decisions can't be made without a public meeting, etc. I would not have a problem with Sykes or any two or even all of them starting a web site to interact with community members. After all, it should be their job to get information from and discuss issues with the public. This is a great way to do it. It would have been nice if the other board members participated, but Sykes won't agree to anything. Look at where we are with the video streaming of board meetings!
Send an open records request to the superintendent John Foley (john.foley@tps.org) about administrative positions.
posted by sflagg at 09:07 A.M. EST on Tue Dec 19, 2006 #
Can someone explain to me why it is that school board politics everywhere are becoming more and more contentious? What is it?
posted by corky at 12:11 P.M. EST on Tue Dec 19, 2006 #
Can someone explain to me why it is that school board politics everywhere are becoming more and more contentious? What is it?
Because we fools are the ones that elected them in the first place.
posted by HolyHolyToledo at 01:31 P.M. EST on Tue Dec 19, 2006 #
corky said: “Can someone explain to me why it is that school board politics everywhere are becoming more and more contentious?”
Good question. Some possible answers:
1. Raw democracy increasing. People are getting more access to information and are sticking their noses into their school systems. Note that opposing this possibility is the fact that Americans are working longer hours than ever, leaving little time for any citizenship actions.
2. Educational quality decreasing. This is a vast topic. Some feel that computer literacy should be further emphasized. Some feel that flight from public school systems had caused a quality drop. Some feel that economic problems are creating a poor educational environment. There are a lot of subtopics here.
3. Educational choice exists. Millions of Americans now have educational choices for their children whereas in past decades there was nearly zero. This is an important change. It becomes unavoidable to then ask why, in fact, educational choice has resulted in more conflict. Detroit's public school system might well hint at why that is the case, and that hint involves factors like White flight, capital flight (i.e. decreasing tax base), political corruption, and of course a monumentally deficient class of parent-citizens.
The currently contentious nature of TPS public meetings is still pretty tame, compared to what the Detroit school system has gone through and continues to endure. Isn't that a happy thought? Not only could it be far worse (for example, the police could routinely harass public visitors to Board meetings), but it's very likely to get exactly that worse. The public's perception about the TPS is that they merely have to pay the taxes and then the system just kinda runs itself.
The truth is otherwise, alas. The TPS is transforming itself into a prison pipeline. White and capital flight are leaving the remaining, darker student body to the largely-nonexistent educational capacity of their own dipshit parents, to the mercy of an extensive welfare system, and to the sentiments of the elite educational class (i.e. administrators) -- who are the very worst choice since they seem to hate children and love money with equal ardor. The phenomenal salary increase from teacher to administrator is a poor motivator for results. The educational system should not pay you more (and A LOT MORE) to get you OUT of the classroom.
Today's Board meetings should be very contentious, since the TPS is in severe trouble for 3 major reasons:
1. The Toledo economy is literally collapsing and the area is heading to a Detroit-styled level of functionality.
2. The TPS is run by unionized and educated elitists who have no preparation for handling the increasing crisis in the student body.
3. The body politic and its dupes on the Board are not dealing with the reality of points #1 and #2.
It's only going to get worse before it gets better, and I mean a LOT worse. We're going to end up with cops routinely guarding all the strutting elite of the deficient school system, while they run around issuing proclamations and collecting their enormous paychecks. The difference between the public and these elites will become so strongly emphasized that violence is almost certain to occur.
But if we sit back, pay our taxes and ignore what's happening now, all this will happen anyway to a deeper extent. We're already in serious trouble. The fix is knowledge, advocacy and action. The old saying is clear: when you're in a hole, stop digging. Starting out in such a deep hole really sucks. But starting out in a deeper hole sucks even more. Logically, we should start fixing the school system immediately.
posted by GuestZero at 04:08 A.M. EST on Wed Dec 20, 2006 #
GZ, you asked if it is the same as 3 for Children getting together. It could be construed at that way, but it could also be construed that they did not need to. Did Frank Szollosi let other board members know about his site when he launched? I don't know, but I doubt it. Is the Web site controversial? You bet it is. Two elected officials trying to solicit feedback directly from citizens. Wow that is controversial.
Regardless it is a good idea because it is a new way to dialog with citizens.
If any elected official is looking for a new way to engage citizens, please contact me. Robert Torres and Darlene approached me about the concept and I did it for only $20 each because it needs to be done and is innovative.
posted by chrismyers at 06:58 A.M. EST on Wed Dec 20, 2006 #
GZ - you got it pretty close although I know a lot of "darker" parents and I don't think they are dipshit parents. Poverty brings a host of problems but it does not mean that parents don't care. They may have to work two jobs. They may lack education and knowledge about how to get the best for their kids; how to navigate a very unfriendly educational bureaucracy. You get my point. Having said this, I believe you are correct about TPS becoming a “prison pipeline”.
The one issue you did not really go into detail about is the fact that TPS is a huge economic engine in our area (as well as in other cities). Insiders want more and more, others want to "milk" the system and with business activity stagnant or shrinking it means that some look to TPS as a feeding trough. There are many in Toledo right now lining up to maintain their control or gain greater control of the system. Then you have groups such as the Coalition that just want what is best for the community, but we get bad mouthed because we won't fall into their "gravy train mentality". Therein lies the reason for so many affiliated with the district to want a new property tax levy!
So the fight rages and you are right about one thing, it will get much worse this year. And it isn't just TPS, it is prevalent throughout Toledo. Time Magazine got it right - the internet is changing everything and institutions such as the Blade no longer have a monopoly on the "news". Without the internet, very few in Toledo would have any idea just how messed up TPS really is!
They say the board is dysfunctional - the whole system is dysfunctional and the board is simply a reflection of the struggle going on to restore it to an institution whose mission is to serve this community
posted by sflagg at 07:52 A.M. EST on Wed Dec 20, 2006 #
Dec 20, 2006 Blade story titled TPS board members' Web site is criticized.
"Larry Sykes asked why the district and three other board members, including himself, were not made aware of its existence in advance of a public announcement that went out Monday night. "You're welcome to join the Web site," responded board President Darlene Fisher."
posted by jr at 08:50 A.M. EST on Wed Dec 20, 2006 #
I find it hard to believe that Larry Sykes would have the unmitigated gall to even THINK that, let alone say it. His adolescent tantrum and pout are not reassuring at all.
I find this comment to be laughable since he and his cronies (Barnett, Steel) could not be bothered to include Fisher and Torres when they made their notable "3 for Children" stand.
Apparently what's good for the goose is not good for the gander.
posted by DoknowDocare at 10:06 A.M. EST on Wed Dec 20, 2006 #
GZ -- thank you for your well-thought out reply. What is sad is that families are the ones who suffer and that is always bad for community.
sflagg -- I also appreciate your take on this too. I've mentioned this before and I wonder if it is something that should be examined more closely. You mentioned the "gravy train mentality."
Wasn't there a lawsuit filed in the last couple years that alleged that the education system was operating on a pay-to-play (similar to what has been revealed with the Noe-gate drama?) system with the influx of money for the new school construction projects?
I wonder if that is part of what may be fueling some of the contentiousness? People act crazy when money is involved.
posted by corky at 10:59 A.M. EST on Wed Dec 20, 2006 #
I think the site is awesome. FYI, I have had an excellent experience with TPS so far. The teachers I have met have communicated with us more than our teachers at other schools and have done more to make sure my daughter is on track in her (and our) educational goals. In my opinion, education is one of the most important, complex, and expensive endeavors, and rightfully, we should keep a watchful eye on the performance in the district, but aren't you guys being a bit hard on everyone? It really seems like they are sincerely trying, and for as little as a website costs, I'm sure that the net effect will be positive.
posted by frosty at 01:59 P.M. EST on Wed Dec 20, 2006 #
Ok, I tried to create an account on talkingtps and never recieved the email. I tried a second time and got an error message stating that the email address I provided was already in use - no real surprise, as I'm the one using it.
What do I have to do to get an account?
posted by madjack at 03:11 P.M. EST on Wed Dec 20, 2006 #
Frosty - I'm curious how long is your experience with TPS and how many children have you had attend? What schools have you had experience? What other schools or school systems have your children attended?
I have found schools within the system that really do try. It is usually a function of the principal of the school. I've seen great schools swing to the other extreme in just a year or two when a principal moves. However, even great principals learn quickly to keep their head down and stay below the radar: they just do what they think is best despite the edicts at the top.
There are successes and pockets of hope. When I speak of TPS, I do so from a total system perspective.
posted by sflagg at 03:58 P.M. EST on Wed Dec 20, 2006 #
GZ - I'm talking about those that feed from the public trough or want to feed there. They are interested in their short term enrichment and would therefore support a levy in a number of ways to keep the gravy train on the roll or the trough full for the feeding. A civic minded person would be interested in the whole effect of an increase in taxes. Short term TPS gets the funds but long term more population is lost, more students elect other educational options, and the tax base is further weakened. We simply have to take a longer view and ask the hard questions.
I'm not familiar with any lawsuit. If you have more information, please pass it on.
posted by sflagg at 04:06 P.M. EST on Wed Dec 20, 2006 #
WHOA, NELLIE! There's been a big spike in posting activity on talkingtps.com. Maddie, if you're posting on talkingtps.com as "Mad Jack", then you're pimp-slapping the user "TPS Teacher" around much better than I am. That levy thread is a howl. These teachers actually EXPECT to get a raise! -- while I'm taking pay bi-annual pay cuts! ... while Toledo home prices are in decline! ... while I know a family about to lose their home from chronic unemployment! ... while I know a well-paid single-earner family now struggling with increased costs of energy and child care! ... while the city budget is nowhere near being balanced! ... while the TPS budget is also highly unbalanced! ... while the city is losing 1000 residents each year! Mega-LOL!
The TPS teachers must think we workers are made of money. Time to pop their bubble!
posted by GuestZero at 05:04 A.M. EST on Thu Dec 21, 2006 #
GZ, be sure not to slap around people too much (remember responding to questions). That is what ToledoTalk is for. :)
MJ, the confirmation e-mail proably got lost in the spam filter somewhere. If anyone has trouble, contact me on my profile if you want, or try another e-mail account like Yahoo or Gmail.
posted by chrismyers at 08:06 A.M. EST on Thu Dec 21, 2006 #
Chris: Thanks. I got the email later on.
GZ: Yeah, that's me. Thanks for the compliment. I consider that high praise from a man of your talent and ability. LOL!
I couldn't believe what I was reading. The system is failing, the kids aren't learning and the teachers actually, really believe that they should get a raise?! What kind of fantasy world are they living in?
posted by madjack at 11:54 A.M. EST on Thu Dec 21, 2006 #
madjack - I didn't post this thought on the website, but I have to wonder about teachers who think that, because they went into debt to better themselves through a college education, they are somehow "owed" an income that allows them to pay off such debt. I agree that teachers shouldn't have to purchase supplies using their own funds, but this whole idea of "I went into debt so I could be a teacher which is why the public owes me a better/higher salary" is wrong.
One - they didn't have to go into debt...they could have worked and gone to school part time so as not to incur debt (GZ - please feel free to chime in!).
Two - if you're going to get a college education in a particular field, I'd hope you'd be aware of what the field pays as a starting salary and make the proper arrangements to live within that earnings range. Or pick a field that pays more if you don't want to limit your lifestyle.
Teachers have a hard job and I give them a lot of credit because I don't think I could do it well. But their commitment to their profession and their continuing education requirements and the other myriad issues they face personally are no different than other people in other professions.
I guess the thing that bothers me most is the entitlement versus merit philosophy of what an individual is worth in the marketplace.
posted by MaggieThurber at 02:13 P.M. EST on Thu Dec 21, 2006 #
I’ll probably get my account canceled with what I’ve been writing over there. Someone – probably a warm, sensitive twenty-first century man – told me I wasn’t being very nice with my comment about corporate weasel speak. Oh, well…
Two - if you're going to get a college education in a particular field, I'd hope you'd be aware of what the field pays
You peeled the right banana that time. I remember a conversation between Main Lady and Youngest Little Darling about college, career choices and moola. YLD wanted to major in dance, because she wanted to be a ballet dancer. Well and good, however there are a few caveats for young, budding ballet prima donnas, such as the name of your instructor, the school where you study and your portfolio of past productions. The bottom line was that YLD got an audition and failed miserably. It isn’t that she’s a poor dancer; it’s that she went from Toledo to NYC, where the competition is willing to sell their soul and that of their first born just to get into the audition. Those in charge of admittance aren’t interested in souls, literally. Figuratively, maybe. Somewhat the worse for wear, YLD opted for pre-med on a scholastic scholarship, was accepted into Veterinary college in her sophomore year, graduated, completed her residency and became licensed, opted for additional training knowing that she’d be poor for several years, and is completing said training June of next year. YLD is a very hard working, determined young lady. YLD has never asked for help or a hand out, and so, of course, she is sent a few bucks whenever Main Lady can spare them. Not a lot, but a few.
It’s the entitlement attitude that bothers me as well. As I pointed out, I’m not the person who insisted someone take out student loans or even attend college.
Teachers have a hard job and I give them a lot of credit because I don't think I could do it well.
You’d probably be Ok, depending on the age of the students in class. Given a free hand with discipline tactics and an average class, you’d likely produce very good results in any civics class. Consider a high school class in government. The students can learn from a HS teacher, or from someone who has been elected and held an office for several years.
posted by madjack at 03:07 P.M. EST on Thu Dec 21, 2006 #
ah, but madjack..do we want teachers who are "good" or just 'okay'? I'd pick the good, which is probably why I didn't choose teaching as a career.
and it sounds like YLD is a a pretty smart YLD. How proud y'all must be of her and proud she must be of her accomplishments.
But as thinking sometimes goes off on a tangent, I was wondering...if we gave the teachers the $10,000 per pupil spending, wonder what changes they'd make in their classrooms....
posted by MaggieThurber at 04:26 P.M. EST on Thu Dec 21, 2006 #
do we want teachers who are "good" or just 'okay'? I'd pick the good
So would I, if I could find any. Meantime, I'll settle for mediocrity.
::Smack::
::Smack:: ::Smack::
Ok, allright, I shouldn't have said that. Don't start crying or anything.
if we gave the teachers the $10,000 per pupil spending, wonder what changes they'd make in their classrooms....
Now that's an interesting idea. Here's a few numbers to consider:
Rent: $2,000 per month, $24,000 per year
Electric, including Lights, AC, Heat: $1000 per month, $12,000 per year
Text Books, $100 per student, $2,500 per year
Furniture, ? I have no real feel for the cost here
Insurance (liability, etc.), ?
Misc.: $200 per student, $5000 per year
Total cost per year: $43,500, not including the costs I’m unable to estimate.
Nbr. of Students: 25
Tuition per Student: $10,000
Annual Gross: $250,000
Ok, what am I missing here? Can I have a few people with a little more experience than I do show me where I'm going drastically wrong? Because right now it's starting to look like I should be finding a few college grads and some start up capital. I'll open a non-union shop right in downtown Toledo. Maggie can teach American Government 101, GZ can teach Economics 101 and 102, and McCaskey can teach History (having lived through so much of it).
::duck and cover::
posted by madjack at 05:43 P.M. EST on Thu Dec 21, 2006 #
The teacher gives the businessman a lesson--by Jamie Robert Vollmer
"If I ran my business the way you people operate your schools, I wouldn't be in business very long!" I stood before an auditorium filled with outraged teachers who were becoming angrier by the minute. My speech had entirely consumed their precious 90 minutes of in-service. Their initial icy glares had turned to restless agitation. You could cut the hostility with a knife. I represented a group of business people dedicated to improving public schools. I was an executive at an ice cream company that became famous in the middle1980s when People Magazine chose our blueberry as the "Best Ice Cream in America." I was convinced of two things. First, public schools needed to change; they were archaic selecting and sorting mechanisms designed for the industrial age and out of step with the needs of our emerging "knowledge society". Second, educators were a major part of the problem: they resisted change, hunkered down in their feathered nests, protected by tenure and shielded by a bureaucratic monopoly. They needed to look to business. We knew how to produce quality. Zero defects! TQM! Continuous improvement! In retrospect, the speech was perfectly balanced - equal parts ignorance and arrogance.
As soon as I finished, a woman's hand shot up. She appeared polite, pleasant -- she was, in fact, a razor-edged, veteran, high school English teacher who had been waiting to unload. She began quietly, "We are told, sir, that you manage a company that makes good ice cream. "I smugly replied, "Best ice cream in America, Ma'am." "How nice," she said. "Is it rich and smooth?" "Sixteen percent butterfat," I crowed. "Premium ingredients?" she inquired. "Super-premium! Nothing but triple A." I was on a roll. I never saw the next line coming.
"Mr. Vollmer," she said, leaning forward with a wicked eyebrow raised to the sky, "when you are standing on your receiving dock and you see an inferior shipment of blueberries arrive, what do you do?" In the silence of that room, I could hear the trap snap. I was dead meat, but I wasn't going to lie. "I send them back."
"That's right!" she barked, "and we can never send back our blueberries. We take them big, small, rich, poor, gifted, exceptional, abused, frightened, confident, homeless, rude, and brilliant. We take them with ADHD, junior rheumatoid arthritis, and English as their second language. We take them all! Every one! And that, Mr. Vollmer, is why it's not a business. It's school!" In an explosion, all 290 teachers, principals, bus drivers, aides, custodians and secretaries jumped to their feet and yelled, "Yeah! Blueberries! Blueberries!"
And so began my long transformation. Since then, I have visited hundreds of schools. I have learned that a school is not a business. Schools are unable to control the quality of their raw material, they are dependent upon the vagaries of politics for a reliable revenue stream, and
they are constantly mauled by a howling horde of disparate, competing customer groups that would send the best CEO screaming into the night. None of this negates the need for change. We must change what, when, and how we teach to give all children maximum opportunity to thrive in a post-industrial society. But educators cannot do this alone; these changes can occur only with the understanding, trust, permission and active support of the surrounding community.
For the most important thing I have learned is that schools reflect the attitudes, beliefs and health of the communities they serve, and therefore, to improve public education means more than changing our schools, it means changing America.
posted by corky at 06:34 P.M. EST on Thu Dec 21, 2006 #
Corky - I'd agree with the author of the article and the teachers he spoke to - but from the perspective of a classroom only. There are many business practices which are applicable to the business of running a school system. Purchasing policies, maintenance issues, payroll processing...these functions are pretty similar across industries, including schools. There are many good things - best practices - from the business world that can be applied to the business of a school system. But not necessarily to the teaching in a classroom.
posted by MaggieThurber at 08:02 P.M. EST on Thu Dec 21, 2006 #
So why is there so much "ire" on this board and other boards against teachers? Why is it that when a district is facing financial troubles the immediate response from the community is to react against teachers?
Even you wrote:
"I guess the thing that bothers me most is the entitlement versus merit philosophy of what an individual is worth in the marketplace."
posted by corky at 09:36 P.M. EST on Thu Dec 21, 2006 #
I don't think the ire is against teachers but rather against the status quo. If the teachers are not forward thinking then they are the status quo.
Since 19 new schools have been deemed so bad that parents can now apply for an ed choice voucher then I believe teachers bear some responsibility for how we got here. If you would have seen the performance put on by Ms. Lawrence at the board meeting Tuesday night and you were a parent of a student in a failing Toledo Public School what reaction can be expected. She only wanted to know where her money was. Reminded me a lot of the gang/thug mentality.
No one is entitled to anything, everything must be earned and all of the screaming and threats from Mrs. Lawrence won't get her and her members anything. Even if a levy is passed (sympathetically) the community will be in an uproar as more dirt under the grass is uncovered.
posted by purnhrt at 12:12 A.M. EST on Fri Dec 22, 2006 #
The school system political squeeze works this way:
1. The school system is largely run by people well educated in public manipulation. They lie, cheat and steal as a matter of common practice. Literally, if you see their mouths open, you have prima facie evidence that they are lying.
2. As ‘authenticated’ sources of organization information, these people create an environment of fear and uncertainty in order to skew all public analyses of the financing system.
3. The fear and uncertainty always avoids dealing with their own salaries, benefits and staffing levels. Hence, those financial issues are hardly ever up for discussion, much less actual change.
4. The issues of finance then fall upon the subordinate classes within the school system; firstly the lowest level of administration (clerks, janitors, etc.), and then rising through the ranks of the teachers.
5. The teachers' union modifies this message of fear and uncertainty -- best thought as a ‘blame force’ -- in any way it can by creating another false vision or myth -- one of underpaid teachers. At best, the lower echelons of the teachers are "thrown to the dogs" in order to stave off well-earned criticism of high compensation at the senior levels. Hence, the public is once again led away from issues of controllable costs.
6. Ultimately, with the removal of the issue of vast compensations for the administration and teachers, the public is forced to look at fixed costs, like buildings and students. Neither buildings and students have defenders.
The issue of building costs has been markedly complicated by the influx of this stupid construction program (which as usual benefits Toledo's construction mafia). The Board has diverted a lot of attention about their failed handling of land assets by merely stating that most of these assets will be torn down and rebuilt anyway. This has lulled a lot of Toledo voters and parents into thinking the TPS is improving. But the new buildings will not be maintained properly (as happened to the old ones), leading to the usual, INTENTIONAL degradation. Also, new buildings have nearly NOTHING to do with education. Education is a multivariate combination of parents, peers, teachers, and the culture at large, but within the school it tends to only fall to the administration, the teachers, the course materials and (last but not least) the students and their will to learn.
P.S. Maddie, if you keep making basic economic statements about how farcical is the TPS funding structure, you'll make some administrator's head explode. So ... keep it up!
P.P.S. “Blueberries! Blueberries!”? Well, it IS about whole bunch of fruit-loops, anyway. The blueberry metaphor can be stuck firmly up the establishment educational advocate's ass. Student outcomes should be measured and judged ... just like products are. The TRUE judgment point is not at the businessman level, neither is it at the teacher level. The customer (consumer, parent or taxpayer) is the boss. We make the final quality decision.
So, to the TPS teachers: We do NOT accept that after a long line of ill-educated children emerging from YOUR classrooms, that we'll just hear this fucking stupid blueberry metaphor to somehow explain away the failures of YOUR educational class! If you're really the ‘professionals’ that you claim to be, then take some fucking responsibility!
posted by GuestZero at 03:37 A.M. EST on Fri Dec 22, 2006 #
Corky wrote to me: "So why is there so much "ire" on this board and other boards against teachers? Why is it that when a district is facing financial troubles the immediate response from the community is to react against teachers?
Even you wrote:
"I guess the thing that bothers me most is the entitlement versus merit philosophy of what an individual is worth in the marketplace."
Corky - you need to start separating the attitudes from the people. I have an immense respect for MOST teachers - recognizing that in any organization, there are always some who are not as good as others.
My specific statement was a reference to a poster on the TalkingTPS website who seemed to think that because he/she went into debt to get an education degree, he/she was 'entitled' to a pay that allowed the debt to be paid off.
My exception was to the attitude - not the individual's professional skills.
Critizing an individual person's attitude on a specific issue is NOT a reaction against all teachers in general.
And I've seen significant criticism of the administration wages and several school board members on TT - perhaps even more than what has been directed at a few of the teachers in the system.
As for your question about why the responses to difficulties seem to be directed to teachers? I think for several reasons - one: they're the 'face' of the system in that they're the ones most parents have contact with; two - the recent discussion over their wage structure and benefits package - both paid for with public dollars and the frustration that their benefits are much better than what most people in Toledo have; three - the lack of understanding (though beginning to change) about how top-heavy the system seems to be and the wages administrators earn; four - the TFT and peoples various attitudes (both good and bad) about them; and, finally, overall frustration with the system being taken out against a specific segment of the system.
But that's just my perspective.
posted by MaggieThurber at 07:33 A.M. EST on Fri Dec 22, 2006 #
Let me give you my reaction to TPSteacher's statement about his/her debt for college and the prospect of being required to get a masters degree.
Our school system almost went on strike this year and while that drama was swirling I was having new tile laid in my bathroom. The employees were nice and I'd even go so far as to say that a few of them were very talented.
The owner and I were discussing the prospect of a strike and he said, "I've got four tile layers that I've got to lay off. What they wouldn't do to have a 10 month a year job that pays $40,000 a year."
To which I said, "Tell them to go to frickin' college for four years and they can. And then tell them to get the job and prompty enroll in a master's program so they can keep it."
This business owner who I consider to be bright sat there in stunned silence. HE DIDN'T EVEN KNOW THAT A TEACHER IS REQUIRED BY LAW TO HAVE A MASTERS DEGREE.
And I don't think that his ignorance is anything special.
Don't get me wrong. I don't think that teachers are underpaid. But I don't think that they are overpaid either.
dearest GZ (with whom I rarely conflict even though you may be only person I've encountered who throws around the f-bomb more than me in real life) As for the blueberries analogy . . . spend some time in any elementary classroom (let alone high school) and you will witness firsthand the bruised and nearly smushed blueberries who come to school. In many cases, not all, this is not an excuse it is reality.
purnhrt -- you sound like an involved parent. I hope it isn't your child who is being subjected to these substandardly performing schools.
All I am saying is that the simplistic answer to school financing problems is to go soley after teacher salaries. In the short run, it appeases the community, but it will not address other areas of financial waste or improve academic performance.
(GZ -- (wink wink) in the spirit of the holiday season can you not rip into me too bad? BTW, I do always learn to look at a situation differently from reading your posts.)
posted by corky at 08:35 A.M. EST on Fri Dec 22, 2006 #
Corky
My children are no longer involved in these substandard schools. I took my children out and am now a home schooler. I have a sophomore at Bowling Green who is spending a part of her Christmas vacation in New Orleans on a Habitat for Humanity project.
I homeschool only because I don't want my children exposed to a toxic environment and all that that brings with it. I work too hard to parent my children to expose them to negative and disruptive behaviors that they would be exposed to were they to attend a TPS school, from the administration on down.
But I still feel that since I am paying taxes that support the school system, my children should be able to walk to their neighborhood schools just around the corner. I still have one in grade school and one in high school.
posted by purnhrt at 12:37 P.M. EST on Fri Dec 22, 2006 #
Corky - I'm with you on the simplistic answer as going after teacher salaries. I've never been one to take a simplistic view. I'm sure that there is waste and inefficiency in any government body - and that should be the first to go. I'm also concerned by the number of and pay for administrators - that should be the second thing to be looked at.
Not to compare teachers to factory line workers - but when you've got a product to produce (educated kids) you don't eliminate the person (teacher) assembling the key components (teaching in the classrom).
However, that's not to say that changes in benefits and pay structures (like implementation of merit pay or reliance upon step increases only instead of step and pay increases) shouldn't be applied across the board to everyone within the system....
posted by MaggieThurber at 01:57 P.M. EST on Fri Dec 22, 2006 #
Yes - intelligent watchdogs do talk saving & reallocating $ in all areas & levels. We do need to make comparison tables in all these categories. SFlagg probably has done them for many years.
However, important comparisons need data that cannot be easily pulled out of TPSs equivalent of "QuickBooks". This smokescreen hides & impedes most of the organizations whose finances I try to help. Contributing is some professionals attitude that we should trust them without their helping us comprehend.
posted by robertbrundage at 04:24 P.M. EST on Sat Dec 23, 2006 #
corky said: “This business owner who I consider to be bright sat there in stunned silence. HE DIDN'T EVEN KNOW THAT A TEACHER IS REQUIRED BY LAW TO HAVE A MASTERS DEGREE.”
That's deuced odd, innit, since the elementary teacher I know doesn't have one. It sounds like you need to make your point honestly, this time.
corky said: “I don't think that teachers are underpaid. But I don't think that they are overpaid either.”
Economically speaking, if we can't afford to pay them at $32K starting, $48K median and $65K senior salaries, then they ARE overpaid. That is not a matter of opinion. If the TPS budget cannot be balanced by handing out such salaries, then through the cost-cutting process it is only rational to address salaries at some point in time.
Before assaulting their salaries, we must address other issues. However, the current political structure denies many of the routes towards cost controls that are NOT based on the salaries and benefits of teachers. It's proving to be almost impossible to stop the TPS from hiring another $150K employee for which the system has no demonstrated need. It's proving to be almost impossible to get rid of many of the do-nothing administrators who are commonly pulling down 100 large each year.
So what do you expect us taxpayers to do, corky? Keep paying into your bloated system based upon some half-baked compensation threat? The Board of Education is 3/5ths refusing to be fiscally responsible. The administrators refuse similarly. The building program is yet another fiasco (duuuuh -- 'hooda thunkit' that the price of building materials could RISE??? -- duuuuh!). And now the teachers are demanding (through their sock puppet Lawrence) that they want millions more in so-called deferred raises.
Enough is enough. Sorry about the wages. I'm even more sorry about my OWN wages, since I was given a Christmas bonus of a NEGATIVE 500 bucks. If it sucks to be me -- and it does -- then you'll find me in the ballot booth, passing that suckage right on along. It's basic economic law that if I can't afford to pay you X, then you will get paid less than X. As capital continues to flee the Toledo area (and the TPS continues to pretend that Toledo is NOT a Third World nation disguised as an American city) then teacher wages will take a hit. Hell, they already have, since teacher seniority has risen to an approximate minimum of 6 years. The TPS has compensated already by undermining the lowest ranks of the employees. This burrowing will continue to rise. The median age of the teachers (as well as the cops) in Toledo will continue to rise. Eventually, the system will have such severe dysfunction from avoiding economic reality that a catastrophe or two will result.
We're supposed to be smart enough to foresee and avoid catastrophes. The teachers in the TPS with their B-to-M-level degrees should be even smarter, hence more aware of the problems involved in ignoring economic reality. Since they aren't doing that, I'm crying foul, and in foul language besides. After all, I hate being lied to, and the TPS lies to me all the fucking time.
corky said: “As for the blueberries analogy . . . spend some time in any elementary classroom (let alone high school) and you will witness firsthand the bruised and nearly smushed blueberries who come to school. In many cases, not all, this is not an excuse it is reality.”
Again, no matter what you have to point out about the inherent quality of the basic materials, you will be judged on the quality of your output. "[B]ruised and nearly smushed blueberries"? Let's just call them lemons ... since I'm going to tell you to make lemonade.
corky said: “GZ -- (wink wink) in the spirit of the holiday season can you not rip into me too bad?”
No, I don't give out holiday discounts. :^)
posted by GuestZero at 10:52 P.M. EST on Sat Dec 23, 2006 #
GZ: have you looked at the site recently? If you read through the official responses to user questions and comments, it illustrates the problems in TPS, the board, and just about everything.
posted by madjack at 12:46 P.M. EST on Fri Dec 29, 2006 #
I visited the site and I like it. I'm not sure if any other school board members anywhere else are doing something like this - but it's refreshing to have an offer of real dialogue.
There will be critics - pretty much anything you do there are critics - but focus on what is positive and building and that site should make some changes.
It will certainly change public perception - and build trust.
By the by I see that the Blah has started their re-elect Larry Sykes and Deborah Barnett campaign :-)
posted by katie82640 at 04:18 P.M. EST on Fri Dec 29, 2006 #
Maddie: Will do; it's been on my to-do list for a few days.
Kate: The Blade's recent editorial is clearly trying to re-elect the Sykes Faction by smearing the Fisher Faction. Let's not let that happen.
As for my Sykeswatch idea, I'm suddenly swamped. Somebody needs to respond to the Blade's outrageous smear editorial.
posted by GuestZero at 04:48 A.M. EST on Sat Dec 30, 2006 #
but it's refreshing to have an offer of real dialogue.
I think an offer is about all you're likely to get. Judging from the heat on the site and the lack of participation from Fischer and Torres, I don't think they want any part of it. Fischer (sp Fisher?) and Torres (F&T) were probably looking for a fan club that might contribute a few minor, easily over-looked variants on ideas and projects that they choose to champion. Instead they got a slapped with a hockey stick. Then there's the fiasco on the side between the union teachers and the private sector.
I don't envy F&T, and have said so. They have a difficult position, maybe more so now that Fisher is no longer president. I gather the vote on the new VP, Steel, illustrated the contention between members. Then Barnett comes along with some kind of pledge everyone was supposed to sign, which included guidelines that were really suggestions that were actually rules. What's up with this deal?
posted by madjack at 04:28 P.M. EST on Fri Jan 05, 2007 #
Barnett is just trying to shame F&T into voting along with the 3 who constitute a majority faction. We need to unseat 1 of those three (hopefully with Mr Myers) in order to regain progressive control. The TPS simply has to downsize, but the current majority faction wants to hear nothing about that. They want more money which they will lavish upon themselves, their cronies, and their construction-mafia contacts. All they understand is spending. To them, spending is the same thing as "administration".
posted by GuestZero at 06:09 A.M. EST on Sat Jan 06, 2007 #
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