Because UT and NW Ohio in general suck.
Come on now, what's UT actually good for? What's BG good for?
posted by Guest at 05:01 P.M. EST on Wed Jan 26, 2005 #
Actually, the rates for UT could be a bit misleading...
UT has an "open admission" policy, which means they will take just about any breathing body. When you have a policy like that, you have a tremendous attrition rate ESPECIALLY among first year college students. They take a chance on anybody, even those grossly unqualified to attend a 4 year university.
In addition, UT has traditionally catered to non-traditional college students. You find a MUCH higher percentage of working students at UT than at the University of Michigan (I have received degrees from both these universities). At the University of Michigan, I was an oddity for being employed 30+ hours a week; whereas at the University of Toledo many of the younger undergraduates are already full time workers. This leads to burnout, and subsequent drop out.
posted by Guest at 06:14 P.M. EST on Wed Jan 26, 2005 #
In these days of grade inflation and high school graduates who can’t read and write, I’m not so sure that a 42.3% graduation rate is such a bad thing. If public pressure was brought to bear on UT on its low graduation rate, the administration at UT might be tempted to dumb down all its classes and pass just about everybody. That has already happened to primary education.
posted by mike2004 at 01:00 A.M. EST on Thu Jan 27, 2005 #
I wonder if anyone is factoring in the overall emigration rate of young Toledoans? If many Toledoans find themselves in UT after high school, and the general "brain drain" then kicks in, then the low grad rate is at least partially accounted for.
The stats for minority graduation from Toledo high schools is equally damning. My memory is fading on this, but isn't the rate about 35% for Black students in Toledo? Note this rate measures from the start of Toledo school enrollment; this means that a Black person entering kindergarten only has a 35% chance of graduating HS.
posted by Guest at 01:36 A.M. EST on Fri Jan 28, 2005 #
The minority graduation rate sounds about right but you have to remember that if a child leaves the school district before graduation, it counts the same if the child leaves the school district to go to another school district as what it does if the child drops out. I have no statistics to quote here, but just from observing the people I work with, black middle class people get sick of paying exorbitant taxes for poor quality schools and eventually flee to the suburbs just as white middle class people do. When you count graduation rates from kindergarten, the black middle class flight might be skewing the numbers somewhat.
posted by mike2004 at 07:43 A.M. EST on Fri Jan 28, 2005 #
No solutions offered here yet. I wonder why?
Having recently retired from UT, I can say with some accuracy that UT (and many similar bachelorial instutitions) has struggled not because of poor retention services, but because enrichment services are poorly attended. Those who need it the most (poor GPA), attend the least.
We must also admit that virtually every metropolitan open-enrollment instutition will have students who, unfortunately, are not college material. Universities are for the brightest among us, and some of the "non-brightest" become enrolled. If that student fails to take advantage of UT's academic enrichment services, it's two strikes - with little hope of retention, let alone graduation.
The solution lies much earlier, in high school. Students in high school who are allowed to graduate without four years of science and four years of math cannot be expected to be successful at a university. They will be lost, many levels below their fellow-students. Public schools have surrendered standards each year, to avoid the public seeing them as the really are - harbingers of academic mediocracy.
But UT should also play a role, if it expects to matriculate and retain local students with full-time jobs, poor high school preparation and the demands of a family. The must help area high schools to identify students who intent to attend college and make sure that they graduate with four years of science and math. This is incredibly important for success at a university.
Finally, local busunesses should also participate. Through internships and other on-site student programs, businesses obtain the energy, creativity and expertise of high-achieving students. This often occurs at low or no cost to the employer. Another benefit is that employers can hire the best students after they graduate - trapping the benefit of selecting a known commodity.
In the end, however, it's not fair to compare student records when one student works full time and has a family, while the other student has no commitment other than school. Metropolitan institutions, like UT, will never stack up against rural schools like BG or Miami. Our students are older, many have full time employment and others have family demands to balance against school demands. How could anyone compete fairly against the student that has college already paid for him (mom and dad are doing OK) and this person has nothing to do but study or conduct research all day.
So, try to keep these things in mind before comparing schools.
posted by Chaz at 05:52 P.M. EST on Fri Jan 28, 2005 #
Finally, a particularly cogent posting from you, Chaz. Many of your points do reflect on Toledo's differences which affect a student population, hence we must keep those in mind when comparing to BG, etc. Basically what you're telling us is that UT is a working class school, and BG is comparatively for an elite population ... for people who have no intention of ever being the working class.
In contrast, I do find it amusing that you so cavalierly say "local busunesses [sic] should also participate" in student programs. Don't you know what's happening in American corporations today? The scumbag company I was outsourced to is doing the equivalent of counting nickels and dimes. In that view, the time it takes an employee to obtain, orient and train an intern is looked at as an expense against the employee's time, not as a gain of the work of the intern. And expenses are minimized. Heck, expenses are destroyed.
My friend just landed a job at Xerox in downtown Toledo. I note that once again, to find a job in Toledo there was no local contact. He obtained the job through an interview at a CINCINNATI phone number. He obtained his paperwork from a CINCINNATI address. Toledo is essentially owned by the Hypercapitalist, fanatical right wing companies in Cinci. And that means a culture of such extreme cost controls that things like interns are just not going to happen. Toledo's remotely-owned businesses are supposed to be worked 110% and then sucked dry.
(This is probably exactly what NorthTowne's 2002 buyers had in mind. Unfortunately for them, NT had zero potential for pump-and-dump. My biggest fear now is that Toledo politicians will take on the job of pumping NT. Brrr!)
Although you insist otherwise, Chaz, employers actually don't want the best. "Best" equals "expensive". They want people cheap and obedient. In an era of overemployment, they already HAVE the best as far as they're concerned. What remains is to turnover the rest of the entrenched weenies for the young-n-dumb. Outsourcing is only one aspect of that drive. Offshoring is another.
Unions are finding themselves being undercut by this same culture of fatal cost cutting. Contracts start stipulating that new hires are brought in under a new class of lower compensation. Eventually, the union will collapse as the older, more benefits-heavy classes retire or leave, and what classes remain are less able to pay union dues (and are less able to understand union benefits since they experience them less in the first place).
These things aren't a drive for betterment. These are just concentrations of wealth in a 21st Century America that will leverage the capital gains of the 20th to return the labor force to the conditions of the 19th. And few people attended university or college in the 19th Century. Few needed to, since little depended upon them being so highly educated. We are seeing plenty of this now; after all, why obtain a 4-year degree for an 8-year career? This is the America that the Neo-Liberals and Neo-Conservatives have worked diligently to bring back. What's going to shock them is how little wealth can be squeezed (through several methods) from a 19th Century American before he starts firing back real bullets with a real gun.
posted by Guest at 01:33 P.M. EST on Sat Jan 29, 2005 #
Sorry about the spelling error. I was being driven out of the house for a dinner reservation and didn't feel like taking my laptop along. Well, Guest, I'm sorry that you've had some bad experiences with employers. However, I can tell you I have worked with many regional employers who value relationships with higher education institutions and their students. You see, I created and was for nine years Director of the Division of Organization Development at UT, a division created to serve the needs of employers. My 16 years at UT were devoted to helping area employers improve their performance. I can tell you with certainty that many, many local employers contribute heavily to the education and training of their employees. My division alone earned millions of dollars in revenue from companies that valued the skills of employees. They do not "suck dry" their employees, and they do want the "best" in terms of employee skills.
I don't know where you earned your advanced degree in sociology, political science, industrial psychology or business. Nor do I know how NorthTowne's owners have any bearing upon this discussion (or how you personally are aware of what motivates the owners).
Finally, it is not useful to "brand" a metropolitan university. Yes, we allow most high school graduates to attend UT. Yes, some are not college material and others are too stressed by having to work full time. But UT still has leading edge departments whose research and success can be compared favorably with any school in the nation. For example, our college of Pharmacy is among the best. Our departments of Astronomy, Biomedical Research, Psysical & Plant Sciences and many others excel in national and global ways. In many ways, these departments excel over BGSU. In some ways BGSU excels over UT. Both universities increase their research revenue each year. But UT has many more divisions working with Northwest Ohio companies. Our work helps to improve the success of the employers, their employees and the participating students. Sometimes we develop valuable research with those employers as well.
So, UT is not a "working class school" in every college or department. Nor is BGSU an "elite" school in every area. Your attempt at simplification is not valid. And while BGSU could become an elite school, they have not yet made it. And while UT is often called a "working class" university, in some departments, UT is at the leading edge of research in their field.
Finally, you should know that University College at UT houses several divisions (including my former division) that work closely to help local companies improve their performance through workforce education and training. This benefits the company, the employee and our community.
posted by Chaz at 05:55 P.M. EST on Sat Jan 29, 2005 #
'' some bad experiences with employers ''
Whaaaat? Chaz, it's not just me. General economic malaise has been visited upon everyone I know. Layoffs, firings, pay cuts, benefits cuts ... you name it. Really, don't pretend were in a minority. I've done manual labor right beside degreed engineers in Toledo ... and I had been making up to $35/hr testing software in Massachusetts. It's not about me or my perceptions. It's this area instead. It's a horrible economy here. And the "for rent" signs sprouting like spring mushrooms in West Toledo agree with my assertion. People are getting the heck out and they are finding their wonderfully expensive home isn't worth what the country assessor's office says it's worth.
Admittedly, this is good for renters. I've spoken with a few landlords since 1997. They've been universally lamenting for at least 4 years that they are unable to fetch the rents they want since people are simply unable to pay them. And there's the laughingstock issue of certain downtown residential developments that are facing exactly the same problem. The Blade lovingly quoted some developer as saying he wanted to get at least $650/mo for his properties, but was unable to fetch more than $450/mo.
This isn't just my imagination. So it's dueced odd that you are taking the tack of marginalizing the issue of Toledo's obviously terrible employers. "Sucking 'em dry" is a nationwide phenomenon, not just another annoying aspect of Toledo's master-slave economy.
'' I don't know where you earned your advanced degree in sociology, political science, industrial psychology or business. ''
Neither do I, since I have none. Luckily, the citizen needs no such "qualifications" to judge the society he lives in and to act politically.
Careful, Chaz. You have no authority to remove the citizen from the political process. Doing so led to the elitism of the 1990s and paved the way for the Neo-Con fanatics to seize control of the Federal government in 2000. How many people voted for Bush with vindictive pleasure after enduring years of being dismissed as the "flyover"?
I don't need an advanced degree (much less a degree in general) to participate in the political process, and to discuss social issues in any forum whatsoever.
'' So, UT is not a "working class school" in every college or department. Nor is BGSU an "elite" school in every area. ''
So? I was speaking in generalities that are entirely true. UT is a working-class school. Owens is another step entirely in the direction of the working class. And then we can go to Lourdes and see real elitism in action. I've been to UT, BG and Owens enough to make my classifications in utter confidence. Disbelieve them if you wish.
'' Finally, you should know that University College at UT houses several divisions (including my former division) that work closely to help local companies improve their performance through workforce education and training. This benefits the company, the employee and our community. ''
Benefits? No, it doesn't, considering the two-fisted forces of outsourcing and offshoring are making middle-class training a moot point, and all forces are leading to the promotion of corporate power (hence, only the company benefits). You can always find an employer willing to train and retain its employees. But the trend (nationally, statewide, and down to the Toledo level) is to get rid of employees and load up the remaining local work upon an outsourcer or your own overworked labor force. You can't seriously pretend to us that workloads haven't at least doubled as employers have striven to get more work done with less people. The American productivity measures alone illustrate that. And now people are retiring and companies are whining like stuck pigs about having to hire to replace. What rational man runs a business without an eye on retirement turnover? Answer: The so-called rational man who is only running the business with the eye on this quarter's numbers, as are his "do it or be replaced" orders from his remote or foreign owners.
And here's another training issue close to Toledo's heart: You being the guy-in-the-know and all, surely you know about the significant slowdown in CNC training in Toledo? Beyond the wholesale drop in the number of machine shops, I've just lost count of how many times a machinist told me something like "well, the owners are tired of training a worker on [some type of machine] and then watching them go to another machine shop for more money".
Really, Chaz, the ohh-rah era left with Carty, and he (and his tame council) saddled us with enough debt. All this cheerleading got old quite some time ago. One Great Question that continues to remain unanswered among the Republican and other cheerleading sets is what, exactly, will retraining do for people if they are unable to compete with Mexican, Indian and Chinese wages? What is the point of retraining people for jobs that are even more outsourceable and offshorable than the jobs they came from? And what to do about oversubscription in jobs? The last I heard, at least 600 licensed electricians were sitting in Toledo's union hall, waiting for work. What then will be the point in retraining from (in my case) computer maintenance in favor of being a commercial electrician?
The basic point that I continue to make in one form or another is that Toledo is dying. Brain drain alone indicates "creative energy" is leaving at a fast clip. The population is dropping rather steeply for a city so large. Factories are leaving at a similarly fast clip (although admittedly so many have left already that there's not a whole lot more damage that their leaving can do).
If you're a regular reader of the Blade as I am, you'll note that the local BBB is having a devil of a time with promoting "business ethics" ideas and seminars in the area. In one memorable article, the BBB rep said that Toledo businessmen in 2001 were literally screaming at the BBB reps, since they found the promotion of ethics to be so offensive. Chaz, this is still not my imagination at work. The question that remains is: what well-behaved group of people do (or did) YOU hang around?
Toledo's employers are generally slave drivers. You know it. If you don't know it, you should get out more.
In summary, more do-nothing programs are not the answer for Toledo. If capital won't invest in Toledo, and government capital is just a crony payoff system, then the only sensible answer is in population and services downsizing. This statement won't get me elected, but it's still the TRUTH.
posted by Guest at 07:57 P.M. EST on Sun Jan 30, 2005 #
When did you stop taking your Prozac, Guest? Whoa! Hey, I lost you with your "Neo-Con fanatics" that "seized control of the federal government in 2000." I'm sorry that you are in despair, Guest. I guess not everyone can have a fufilling and rewarding life.
I've worked with the leaders of dozens of Toledo area companies. In many cases, I surveyed the workforce, conducted focus groups with employees and measured organizational culture, as well as performance. I discovered that managers are not typically pure, driven angels - doing their best to grow the company and promote from within. Nor are they devils, anxious to outsource employees. I discovered also that employees are not pure, driven angels, wishing only for a decent day's pay for their commitment, dedication and effort. Most are. But some are crybaby pissants who do little more than complain and blame management for their own ineptitude. Companies are like families. They are all different and they all have their own problems to deal with. My job was to use valid analytical tools to assess the problems and hire faculty members or consultants to resolve the issues. I have had more than twenty years of experience consulting with labor and management in the Toledo area. I received the 2004 Swift Award from the UAW for community service. My division at UT made mmillions. So, I do know some things about our local economy.
The entire Midwest is still suffering from the economic recession. Communities that were primarily manufacturing must get used to the fact that most of the jobs that were lost will not return. Sad but true. These communities must find a way to diversify the economy locally. One way to do that, and to provide higher-wage jobs, is to attract leading-edge research, create new products, processes anda services using that research, use venture capital to convert the process into jobs and watch the economy rise. To accomplish this, there must be new and improved collaboration among area universities, employers, government and the community. Most important, though, is venture capital.
As for lack of CNC training or skilled tradesmen waiting for work. Please review current American (and Toledo area) demographics. There is a massive group called the baby-boom generation (my group). This group vastly outnumbers all other groups. The oldest of baby-boomers are retiring now. Each year, the working population of baby-boomers will diminish. That means thousands of skilled tradesmen will be needed to replace the retiring boomers. Same for teachers, dentists, accountants, clerical workers, even computer analysts. So, please check your demographics before suggesting that there won't be job opportunities in our area.
Toledo is not dying, as you put it. Nor is it healthy. It is still enduring the aftermath of a bad recession and it is still transforming local economic development agency responsibilities. Some factories are leaving. Some are entering. Most are staying. What about the new Dana hi-tech business campus in Monclova? What about the new Coke plant? There has never been so much construction in Toledo (City Sewer Project, Toledo Hospital, Toledo Schools, The I-280 Bridge, Westfield Mall). There has never been such a need for construction workers. And Toledo's economy is intertwined with Maumee, Sylvania and Perrysburg, where the economies are doing much better. The place where we sleep (Sylvania) is still the same community in which we work (Toledo).
You say that "Toledo's employers are slavedrivers." That's quite a mouthful, without a drop of empirical evidence. Interview one company where it happens, and I'll give you physical proof (employee surveys and interviews) from a dozen companies where the employer is considered to be fair, honest and decent.
Since you ask what "well behaved group of people do I hang around," I will tell you. For my first six years at UT, and the year before, when I was responsible for education at the DaimlerChrysler Toledo Machining plant, I hung around with factory floor workers. I surveyed them, interviewed them, held focus groups and determined what type of education they wanted. I listened to their complaints. When I started at UT, I spend more of the same time having conversations with hourly workers at twelve different Ford plants in Michigan and Ohio. You see, I've spent many years on the factory floor - listening. Then, my last nine years at UT, I was director of my own division, Organization Development. During those years, I socialized with workers, supervisors, managers, vice presidents, presidents, boards and owners. I diagnosed their corporate problems and selected just the right faculty member or consultant to solve the problems. Privately, my father was a physician. But I grew up totally middle class. Attended public schools, Ohio State and UT. I socialize primarily with professionals. They are my friends and family. Having lunch at a country club is not a crime. Consuming a baloney sandwich in the middle of a dirty factory floor is OK too. I've spent a lot of time doing both.
Guest, you rant and rave a lot. Why are you so angry? Is it because your career has not performed to your expectation? Why are you so hateful? It is, of course, illogical to suggest that an entire group of people (business leaders) are evil. That kind of thinking made us enslave Africans and kill Native Americans. Saying that everyone in a group is equally guilty of the crimes of only a few is illogical. It allowed Hitler to execute the Holocaust. Are some business leaders evil? Yes. Are most? No. If you blame all people in a group for the actions of some, you convict innocent people for the actions of others. By the way, my first job after college was treating people on the Psychiatric Ward at St. Vincent Hospital. We often worked with people who blamed innocent people for the detrimental actions of others. It's called neurosis.
In summary, Guest, I would try to discover the source of your anger, least it continue to fester, like a sore upon your soul. I would also try to deliver some empirical evidence, or at least references, for your accusations. Finally, I would for the future, try to stop accusing everyone in a group for the poor performances of a few members. That type of thinking can get a person in a lot of trouble (i.e. racisim, anti-semitism, racial profiling, etc.).
posted by Chaz at 02:10 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 01, 2005 #
Hi,
I am a different guest, a medical student at OSU with family in Sylvania. I think what Chaz is saying is correct, and we need more people in Toledo like him, especially at the level of writing policy.
To add to the bit about Toledo and suburbs, I think one of the problems is that Toledo is always antagonizing its suburbs. One of the first things I learned when I moved to Sylvania in 1995, was that almost everyone had a bad opinion of the city of Toledo. Toledo's politicians should be working with the suburbs to promote development. That development does not typically occur at the expense of Toledo (although it may seem that way with a stagnant metro population since 1960). Businesses created in the suburbs will also help businesses in Toledo, such as the retail establishments. More money for the area is a good thing.
posted by Guest at 07:52 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 01, 2005 #
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