I've expressed my opinions on the subject here and here.
When 80% of the parents surveyed by TPS favor school uniforms, you'd better learn to deal with it or move to a school district that doesn't require uniforms.
posted by jr at 01:14 A.M. EST on Fri Feb 11, 2005 #
Why should I have to move I'm poor haven't you heard Toledo is in 20th place for poorness in the U.S. a year a go kids could wear uniforms if they wanted, and I could dress my kid how I liked. Besides most of the 80% of parents are most likely being manipulated.
posted by Kmorgan at 01:21 A.M. EST on Fri Feb 11, 2005 #
Hey JR come on and debate this with me. I have a real argument for you.
posted by Kmorgan at 01:30 A.M. EST on Fri Feb 11, 2005 #
A posting from last July:
"Thousands of TPS elementary students will qualify for free uniforms. Of the 17,000 students who will need uniforms this year, 14,000 will qualify to get them for free."
Did you qualify for the free uniforms? Sounds like a pretty good deal to me.
posted by jr at 01:31 A.M. EST on Fri Feb 11, 2005 #
Oh it's a great deal, about 500 dollars right? But why doesn't everybody qualify? Why do some parents who work hard for their money have the government telling them what to do with it? why is Toledo going to tell me I have to buy khakis and polo shirts for my kids if I don't want to. I wouldn't accept the money if I did qualify. 500 dollars for uniforms is another issue we can discuss. Where are those kids getting their uniforms from Armani. that $500 is part of that parental manipulation. You have to do better than that to manipulate me
posted by Guest at 02:05 A.M. EST on Fri Feb 11, 2005 #
My father went to a school where they were required to wear school uniforms. My dad's family was poor - my grandfather was a coal miner. He was the 5th of 9 children, and had ONE school uniform. Whenever he didn't wear the uniform to school (because it was dirty), they sent him home. This was in the early 60s. Thank God someone back then realized that you can learn the same amount of material coming to school in jeans and a t-shirt....
Apparently some people today have forgotten that lesson. Maybe they see kids wearing the latest fashions and think it is a distraction. Maybe they think, somehow, schoolchildren should not hold the same values that society gives them (buy this product to be cool, use this product or you're a loser, success is measured by owning this product). Or maybe they came from households (or private schools) where there was enough spare money to afford the uniforms.
Maybe TPS should concentrate on teaching our kids, not what they wear. I doubt the problems with TPS's academic status have anything to do with clothing. People come to colleges with no dress code and do just fine.
posted by timault at 12:18 P.M. EST on Fri Feb 11, 2005 #
Exactly Timault, I'll bet the same people who made the law consider what they are wearing every day when they get dressed. The same people wouldn't wear something that they didn't like so why should our kids? Aren't they just as human as us even though they are younger?
posted by Guest at 01:10 P.M. EST on Fri Feb 11, 2005 #
From worst to best, the academic ranks are:
- academic emergency
- academic watch
- continuous improvement
- effective
- excellent
In August 2003, the Toledo Public School system was ranked as "academic emergency." The same ranking TPS had the year before.
At the start of the current school season, TPS's ranking jumped up to "continuous improvement."
But now Superintendent Sanders is saying that TPS will be downgraded to "academic watch."
And you're worried about clothing? Are you just as concerned about reading, writing, math, and science?
The "uniform" policy is TPS's attempt at trying something, anything to get kids to do better in school. And how can that be bad?
If TPS was doing better, then there would be no need for a uniform policy. To justify these school levies that show up on every November ballot, TPS better be trying something to improve the school system.
I'd even support a pilot test of this radical idea.
posted by jr at 02:09 A.M. EST on Sun Feb 13, 2005 #
The uniform issue is multivariate.
Firstly, a school system is a local phenomenon, and despite the significant alterations presented by federal funding, it remains locally managed. And if Jr's "80%" statistic is to be believed, then the uniforms are a valid choice.
Secondly, the Toledoan disease of subsidy raises its head once more. To put off one of the major reasons for dissent against uniforms (i.e. financial hardship), we have the usual offer of "free" uniforms. Of course, nothing's free, so undoubtedly the taxpayers will have to pay for it. (If even 4000 families of the 14000 qualifying families take the subsidy, then a $250 uniform set will cost us $1 million.) And I don't recall school uniforms coming up to a public vote. Do you?
Thirdly, dress standards have long existed in the school system. I can only suspect that teachers are getting tired of evaluating girls wearing thong underwear and peek-a-boo low-rider jeans. Uniforms will certainly alleviate that particular problem ... except that the enforcement of dress standards would have done the same. (That is, if people really wanted to enforce it.)
Fourthly, uniforms have long been known as a tool for authoritarian control. That alone should have given us pause.
Overall, the uniforms issue should have been put to a public vote. TPS is in such a terrible state that I'm afraid that many people see it all and conclude that it's "normal". Uniforms are going to seem quite silly on children who can't read, can't write, can't do arithmetic, and finally have essentially no understanding of history, politics, economics, and the gamut of Human knowledge that I could have sworn was the heritage of a wealthy Western society.
TPS administrators and parents may be thinking that with uniforms, some discipline will enter the picture for the student body. I suppose that that's possible. But I'm betting against it. After all, if the teachers perhaps cannot exhibit the discipline of enforcing a sensible dress code amongst the student body, then what disciplinary features of their leadership will make its mark with the students?
posted by Guest at 02:25 A.M. EST on Sun Feb 13, 2005 #
"And if Jr's "80%" statistic is to be believed ..."
It's not my stat. That's why I included links in my comment. One of the links points to a posting that contains this Blade story from Dec 5, 2003.
"Nearly 80 percent of parents who responded to a Toledo Public Schools questionnaire at teacher conferences favored a district-wide uniform policy. Of the 6,444 surveys received, 5,048, or 78 percent, favored a district-wide policy and 1,396, or 22 percent, opposed it."
"Four Toledo elementary schools currently [as of Dec 2003] require uniforms for pupils: Grove Patterson, Lincoln Academy for Boys, Old West End, and Stewart Academy for Girls. At Lincoln, 85 percent favored a district-wide uniform policy along with 95 percent at Stewart and 98 percent at Old West End."
Obviously, the uniform policy is overwhelmingly supported.
posted by jr at 03:01 A.M. EST on Sun Feb 13, 2005 #
It's a direct hit on the rights of our children teachers have been teaching for years and students could choose what they wore to school now all the sudden stats are dropping we are in academic emrgencies and watches so it must be the students fault? Not the teachers slacking? I gues to much Barney made these kids into horrible people. I don't buy that. It's the teachers slacking!
posted by Guest at 08:16 A.M. EST on Sun Feb 13, 2005 #
Hey Jr Yeah I do care about reading writing and arithmatic. Schools are on academic watch, and that's a concern, but my concern is for the teachers. We've been going to school without uniforms for years, now all the sudden kids better wear them because they are screwed up? No, It's the teachers who are screwing up not the kid I'm concerned with who these teachers are and what they are doing you can't tell me that the kids are morons and that's why we are in the shep we are at TPS I don't believe it. Why don't we try something with these teachers instead?
posted by Kmorgan at 08:47 A.M. EST on Sun Feb 13, 2005 #
Actually, I put most of the blame on the parents and guardians for a child's poor school performance. Next in line for blame would be the school teachers, administration, etc. Then the students.
Too many parents don't care about their child's education. Too many parents view the public school system as nothing more than government subsidized daycare.
Hence the reason for Detroit trying a program that pays parents to help their kids learn.
On the first day of school in Cincinnati for the 2003-2004 season, the Cincy public school system had a disturbingly high 24 percent absent rate. The first day of school and almost 1/4 of the kids don't show up?
When the school system looked into it, the main reason for the kids not showing up on day one was because the parents didn't know school had started. How can that many parents be that clueless? To me, those kids are doomed. If their parents care so little as to not know when school starts, what chance do the kids have? But I would also think the students would have some idea when school starts.
"It's up to parents and students themselves to take avail themselves of the incredible opportunities that are available in such a large, diverse urban district. If they don't, no one should be surprised if public support for the schools dries up."
"There is, obviously, cause and effect at work here. You can't learn if you're not in school."
"This is fundamentally a parental responsibility -- and a responsibility of students themselves."
posted by jr at 05:55 P.M. EST on Sun Feb 13, 2005 #
And you may very well be right about the parents so why not focus on that, instead of punishing the kids for it. I'm telling you there's more going on here than you think. This isn't just about uniforms it's the government taking your rights away. For god sake it is a clear violation of our rights. Don't you see what's going on here they have people brainwashed into thinking uniforms does something good, and they pretty much pay 500 dollars for people to vote on it so it becomes a policy. That uniform money may as well be a bribe! Of course 80% of parents want it. I remember when the United States was a country that the other 20% had a choice though.
posted by Guest at 09:11 P.M. EST on Sun Feb 13, 2005 #
"... instead of punishing the kids for it."
How are the kids being punished? They're suppose to go to school and learn, not parade around like they're in a fashion show.
Stats show that the learning is not happening very well in Toledo. It's the Toledo property owners who are being punished for having to pay higher taxes for a school system that doesn't do well. The uniform policy violates no one's rights. It's an attempt to improve the learning process.
"For god sake it is a clear violation of our rights."
So you're a student? How are your rights violated? If you're a parent, how are your rights violated?
"... the other 20% had a choice though."
You do have a choice: move.
There are plenty of school districts in the area that don't have a school uniform policy. I don't believe there's an excuse for not moving to another community in the area. Moving is a possibility if the issue is really that important to you.
Taxpayers are doing it. Toledoans get tired of funding a poor school system so they move to the burbs. They don't want their kids going to a Toledo public school, so they move to the burbs. That's the choice. If it's a bad situation, you do something about it. Moving is more effective than whining.
And in many places in Toledo, you only need to move a mile or two to be in another community. So what's the big deal?
posted by jr at 09:53 A.M. EST on Mon Feb 14, 2005 #
See your probably employed by a school system and your caught in the little world so I will inform you how it really is. IT'S A VIOLATION OF THE KIDS RIGHTS BECAUSE OF THE FIRST AMENDMENT, AND IF YOU DON'T OBEY THE UNIFORM POLICY THE KID IS SUSPENDED AND THAT IS TAKING HIS EDUCATION, THE CONSTITUTION ALSO SAYS WE ARE ALL INTITLED TO AN EDUCATION DOESN'T IT? If your a parent IT VIOLATES YOUR RIGHT TO RAISE YOUR CHILD. your pretty shallow if you think kids go to school just to learn. Do you have friends at work? You might. Most of us normal people do. 80% of your kids social lives are at school like it or not and that will never change. It's about the only place they go. What do you expect. Why take their right to express themselves to their friends? Moving is an option for me but somehow I'll just be postponing the issue because you people let it spread everywhere. Does you kid wear a uniform JR?
posted by Guest at 01:20 P.M. EST on Mon Feb 14, 2005 #
"Does you kid wear a uniform JR?"
Yes. For almost eight years now. The uniforms have saved us a lot of money.
There are other ways kids can "express" themselves than by what they wear. "Express themselves," what the hell does that mean, anyway? Give an example.
What about kids expressing themselves by getting good grades, through art, playing sports, involvement in clubs, hobbies, community involvement? If kids made their own clothing from scratch, then that would be different. That would be expressing themselves, I guess.
"... because you people let it spread everywhere."
You people? What kind of "people" would that be?
It? What "it?"
If TPS did better in the testing arena, I'm guessing there would be no uniform policy. Have you spoke with TPS officials about the uniform policy? Have you asked TPS what research they are using that shows how a uniform policy helps a school system?
In our household we do that strange thing of putting little emphasis on clothing fashion and more emphasis on studying and being active.
posted by jr at 03:53 P.M. EST on Mon Feb 14, 2005 #
Express themselves is kind of like how Johnny Cash is the man in black. That is his image that is his trademark style. I don't think "I'm the man in uniform" would have made a very good song do you? Maybe just maybe, our kids would like to make up their own style and trademark. To express who they are to the world just like the Great Johnny Cash.
Congratulations on saving money it only costed your kids that American right. Maybe if you planned better when you had kids the money factor would have never been an issue I hope it didn't influence you to make your decision to support the uniform policy. You already don't know what self expression god knows what your kids know about it.
There are other ways kids can express themselves but not everybody is artistic or enjoy playing sports. For example some kids just simply would like to wear a shirt that says I love Barney or Skateboarders rule because that is what they enjoy doing and it defines who they are. It's called self expression.
You people are means you people who are giving my rights and my kid's rights away. That's who you people are. If your not one of them. Thank you.
That is very American of you to do in your household, I applaud you. You should do in your household what you wish, and pass the beliefs you have on to your offspring that is your right as an American. I don't see it your way but I would like to pass my beliefs on to my young just like you have done. Only one problem your way is being forced on to my kids already. Put yourself in my shoes, for just a second try to see where I'm comig from here.
posted by Guest at 08:16 P.M. EST on Mon Feb 14, 2005 #
The school uniform issue is just basically another silver bullet solution to what ails the public school system. I would expect the school uniforms to have almost no effect on school performance. Over the past few decades, discipline and god have been removed from the classroom to be replaced with rap music and Heather Has Two Mommies. The problems in the schools today are a reflection of the degradation of American culture in general. No amount of uniforms or tax levies are going to fix it.
posted by mike2004 at 09:37 A.M. EST on Tue Feb 15, 2005 #
What classrooms have you seen that play rap music? Why should god be in classrooms not everybody believen's god just like not everybode believens uniforms
posted by Guest at 09:55 P.M. EST on Tue Feb 15, 2005 #
As a student I wish someone would explain why I have to wear a uniform. I have a contract to join the Army when I graduate already so Why can't I choose what clothes I'll wear to school when I'm a senior? I don't think I will join the service if they go trhough with this uniform thing.
posted by Guest at 10:15 P.M. EST on Wed Feb 16, 2005 #
"See your probably employed by a school system and your caught in the little world so I will inform you how it really is. IT'S A VIOLATION OF THE KIDS RIGHTS BECAUSE OF THE FIRST AMENDMENT, AND IF YOU DON'T OBEY THE UNIFORM POLICY THE KID IS SUSPENDED AND THAT IS TAKING HIS EDUCATION, THE CONSTITUTION ALSO SAYS WE ARE ALL INTITLED TO AN EDUCATION DOESN'T IT? If your a parent IT VIOLATES YOUR RIGHT TO RAISE YOUR CHILD. your pretty shallow if you think kids go to school just to learn. Do you have friends at work? You might. Most of us normal people do. 80% of your kids social lives are at school like it or not and that will never change. It's about the only place they go. What do you expect. Why take their right to express themselves to their friends? Moving is an option for me but somehow I'll just be postponing the issue because you people let it spread everywhere. Does you kid wear a uniform JR? "
Why is it that the people who know the least about their rights are usually the ones screaming the loudest about them? Sir, your display of ignorance astounds me.
1. Do you have any evidence that jr works for a school system besides his contrary view?
2. Mandatory dress code (uniforms) in no way violates the First Amendment. This is what the amendment says: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." Congress has nothing to do with this.
3. Neither the Constitution nor any of the 27 amendments (1-10 constitute the Bill of Rights) says anything about a right to an education.
4. The purpose of a school is not to provide a place to socialize or for freedom of expression. (unless the curriculum includes it...art, music, theater) A school is responsible for educating your child and providing a suitable environment for doing so. If school is the only place your child goes for social interaction, that is yet another one of *your* decisions.
If you don't like the school system and you don't want to move, why don't you home school your child? Take the responsibility for yourself so you can be sure nobody interferes with his/her free expression.
-Dan
posted by photodan at 11:03 A.M. EST on Thu Feb 17, 2005 #
Well the supreme court found it to be a violation of the first amendment that's why it's not a federal law. See choosing you you wear is freedom of speech. The clothes you wear has been found to be (by the supreme court) an expression of an individual which is a form of speech. Look that one up. yeah Jr might not work for the school that's why he answered to that so quickly. There's no question. It's a violation of the first amendment so says the Supreme Court. Do you remember the 60's at all? Why don't you put your kid in a uniform and home school him. I mean after all your the one who wants uniforms for kids yet choose to live in a FREE FREE society.
posted by Guest at 01:38 P.M. EST on Thu Feb 17, 2005 #
Opponents of uniforms, on the other hand, believe that such a policy denies students their right to personal identity and self-expression. Uniforms are regimental, militaristic, and faceless. They believe that students should be encouraged to exercise their individual taste and freedom as long as their clothing is clean, proper, and does not interfere with learning. Parents want their children to make choices and decisions about their appearance and public persona without interference from others.
Opponents also note that the U.S. Constitution guarantees the right of citizens to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness and that the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled in favor of the right of individuals to self-expression
Here's a little More for you there Dan
posted by Guest at 01:51 P.M. EST on Thu Feb 17, 2005 #
i found that in about two seconds using google, see if you can find anything about the Supreme Court Ruling on the matter.
posted by Guest at 01:54 P.M. EST on Thu Feb 17, 2005 #
OH, I THOUGHT THERE WAS A RIGHT TO EDUCATION THING IN THERE SORRY HOW FOOLISH OF ME
posted by Guest at 01:55 P.M. EST on Thu Feb 17, 2005 #
Correct. How foolish of you.
-Dan
posted by photodan at 03:29 P.M. EST on Thu Feb 17, 2005 #
That's it Photo Dan I was expecting a real debate what do you have to say, about you home schooling your kids because you are the one who chooses to live in a nation built on freedom, but want your kid to wear a uniform? seriously I want to know how this makes you feel.
posted by Guest at 05:40 P.M. EST on Thu Feb 17, 2005 #
At least at my school, the handbook says the dress code is not a violation of a person's civil rights and it's limiting the so-called freedom of expression. Of course, schools have lied to us in the past (Columbus comes to mind).
posted by Guest at 06:12 P.M. EST on Thu Feb 17, 2005 #
A dress code is fine because the whole United States has dress code. Except the dress code should allow ballcaps. Why even sell ballcaps if the kids can't wear them? Who else would buy them?
posted by Guest at 10:16 P.M. EST on Thu Feb 17, 2005 #
I see a lot of solid reasons of why there should not be uniforms but nobody has given a solid reason why there should be uniforms
posted by Guest at 01:16 A.M. EST on Fri Feb 18, 2005 #
It's useless people want to say lets have uniforms and they don't even know why
posted by Kmorgan at 02:31 A.M. EST on Fri Feb 18, 2005 #
Uniforms suck
posted by Guest at 01:32 P.M. EST on Fri Feb 18, 2005 #
I think it's funny to send my eleven year old to school in a uniform so she doesn't wear anything "sexually explict" and then send her to cheerleader practice for the same school in a mini skirt. I just thought it's funny. I wonder if I could sue somehow
posted by Guest at 03:45 P.M. EST on Fri Feb 18, 2005 #
"As a student I wish someone would explain why I have to wear a uniform."
I'm curious, Guest or Kmorgan, whichever one you are, what school do you attend? I ask, because, the only grades with a uniform policy in the Toledo Public School district are K-6.
"Beginning Tuesday, August 31, 2004, all kindergarten through sixth graders will be required to wear uniforms in all district elementary schools."
"Beginning Tuesday, August 30, 2005, all junior high/middle school school students will be required to wear uniforms in all district junior high or middle schools."
It applies to high schools in the 06-07 school year.
"Why has TPS adopted uniforms for students?
A decision to adopt uniforms was made because Toledo Public Schools believes in developing policies and practices that promote a positive academic, social, and behavioral climate. There is credible data indicating that adopting school uniform dress codes can improve a school district’s overall educational climate."
I'm sure TPS will provide the credible data for you.
"I see a lot of solid reasons of why there should not be uniforms but nobody has given a solid reason why there should be uniforms."
Solid reasons? Your definition of solid must be cornmeal mush. I have yet to see a solid reason for not wearing a uniform.
How about this for a reason to wear a uniform: Toledo Public Schools will likely be downgraded to "academic watch."
And TPS wants voters to pass more levies? Toledo taxpayers are getting ripped off. Years and years of this and the best TPS can do is "academic watch?" Time to try something. A uniform policy is a something, I guess.
"I think it's funny to send my eleven year old to school in a uniform ..."
Now wait a minute. Your 11-year-old? Are you the same person who said "As a student I wish someone would explain why I have to wear a uniform."?
So you're a student in one of the K-6 grades with an 11-year-old?
posted by jr at 04:51 P.M. EST on Fri Feb 18, 2005 #
Uniforms are just the tip of the iceberg.
Uniforms remove but one of the dozens of disruptions/distractions afflicting our educational system. We should probably start over like the hand grenade with the bad haircut (Ross Perot) once advocated.
Take all of the children away from their families, teach them the basics (right, wrong, good bad, etc.) along with self respect and respect for others, and love of country. Also teach them competition and acheivement. He warned that it might take a generation or more, but I think that he might have something there.
Crazy? Maybe, like a fox...
I doubt he could do any worse than we already have, left to our oun devices.
Remember he was an achiever and a self made multi-millionaire. He rarely failed (except maybe for that presenential thing, when we all thought that he was just plain crazy)...
Right, Wrong, Love of God and Country, Loyalty Patriotism, Achievement, Honor. Yep crazy like a fox...
posted by Hooda_Thunkit at 08:25 P.M. EST on Fri Feb 18, 2005 #
Why do you try to attack me that's called ad hominem not a good tactic. It's the point that matters most. you don't know who I am but if you want I will tell you who the real me is i am Keith Michael Morgan 6164 Lookover ct. toledo Ohio 43612 I am an Operatio0n Iraqi Freedom veternan I just served in the United States Navy for four year perserving your freedom. The only thing I give a shi about is having a family. I thought it was the only thing a person could ever have without any influence now i don't even want to have a kid because of what we are letting our society become. I'm only twenty two and I have decided I will not ever bring a kid into this world under the conditions we have made. So try to kick me in the face again when all I'm trying to do is make a diffrence and live the only life one could hope for. in factcome to my house and tell me to my face. You have my address.
posted by Kmorgan at 03:49 A.M. EST on Sat Feb 19, 2005 #
If you are so bad tell me why we should be wearing JR? Your stupid if you can't read what has been written and say there is no good reasoning why not. There are plenty of reason why not to enforse uniforms and I haven't seen any why we should tell smart ass WHY SHOULD WE GIVE OUR FREEDOM AWAY WHEN MILLIONS DIE EVERYDAY TRYING TO OBTAIN THAT SAME FREEDOM
posted by Kmorgan at 03:55 A.M. EST on Sat Feb 19, 2005 #
Hey stupid, here's a novelty for you.
freedom in a free country
posted by Kmorgan at 04:24 A.M. EST on Sat Feb 19, 2005 #
"It's the teachers who are screwing up not the kid I'm concerned with who these teachers are and what they are doing you can't tell me that the kids are morons and that's why we are in the shep we are at TPS I don't believe it. Why don't we try something with these teachers instead?
posted by Kmorgan at 08:47 A.M. EST on Sun Feb 13, 2005 #
What a load of you know what! Blaming teachers is insane. How many parents allow poorly (academically) performing children to play sports and video games? How many parents fail to read to their small children every day? Do you have to be wealthy in Ottawa Hills to read and tell your children how important education will be for their future as adults? No, the blame is heavily upon parents who themselves have little value for education. Until they understand how important education is, until they are convinced how important it is for them to be involved with their kids education, until they get involved... the blame is upon parents.
Forget about the uniforms! Support parental involvement!
posted by Chaz at 05:57 P.M. EST on Thu Feb 24, 2005 #
Chaz, Chaz, Chaz, duh. There are bad parents, what can anybody do about that. Not very much, So focus on what we can change. Taking the rights away from the kids isn't the answer.
posted by Kmorgan at 12:06 A.M. EST on Fri Feb 25, 2005 #
I agree with Chaz that most of the blame is on the parents. And what to do about it? Maybe start fining the parents. Take a little money out of their pocket and that might wake them up. In Detroit, they're trying the opposite: paying parents to, well, parent. Paying parents to help their kids study.
Taking a kid from a poor inner city school and placing the child in a wealthy suburban school won't change anything for the child if the parents don't give a shit. Taking a kid from a school where the child's rights are supposedly restricted and putting the child in a school that supposedly has more rights won't change anything for the child if the parents still don't give a damn about their kid's education.
From a review about a book titled No Excuses: Closing the Racial Gap in Learning:
"Black parents simply do not demand as much academic rigor as whites and Asians. Black students who reported that they were "working just as hard as they could" spent 3.9 hours per week on homework. For whites, the figure was 5.4 hours, nearly 40 percent higher. And for Asians, the figure was 7.5 hours."
"Black kids spend more than twice as many hours a day watching television as whites. And when students were surveyed about the lowest grade they could receive without getting into trouble with their parents, Asians said A-, whites said B-, and blacks and Hispanics said C-."
posted by jr at 10:57 A.M. EST on Fri Feb 25, 2005 #
I agree with Chaz that it is mostly the parents too, but like I said what can you really do about it.
Fine them? You can't get blood out of a stone. That's the first thing wrong witht that. Are you going to punish parents if their kid gets an F, does this fining method mean there can be no kids who just fail because they are not ready to prceede to the next grade. Another thing wrong here is how do you distinguish and identify a "bad Parent"
Paying the parents is a shame but it would probably work.
The next area of concentration would be teachers and schools Not kids and Uniforms has no place in the whole issue.
posted by Kmorgan at 12:17 P.M. EST on Fri Feb 25, 2005 #
The racial comments were uncalled for, and believe me you don't want to even try to debate that with me.
posted by Kmorgan at 12:21 P.M. EST on Fri Feb 25, 2005 #
What racial comments? I didn't make any racial comments. Note the italics. Those weren't my words. If you question someone's statistics, take it up with the author of the book or the columnist who reviewed the book. And you might want to provide your own stats here that counter what the author published.
That fact is American kids and adults watch too much TV. In my opinion, the biggest waste of life a person can engage in is watching TV every day. Watching TV two or three times a week, fine, but not every day for hours.
"The average American child watches 3 to 5 hours of television every day. By high school graduation, most children have spent more time in front of the TV than in the classroom. In fact, television viewing accounts for more of a child's time than any other activity except sleeping!"
Kmorgan, are you going to blame the teachers for that fact? How are kids going to reach their academic potential in that kind of environment?
"Even dinnertime, the traditional family catchup period, has been transformed by TV, with many families eating their way through the evening meal in silence as they watch the set. In fact, American Demographics reports that 41 percent of adults don't talk with other family members during the course of an entire evening. Meanwhile, family conflicts go unresolved, as parents and children, grateful for the distraction of the TV set, leave matters unspoken."
"According to a National survey (1998) the average American watches 3 hours and 46 minutes of television each day!"
I don't know how it's possible to watch almost four hours of TV every day? How does the body and mind handle that? How does the average American who watches almost four hours of TV every day not get bored or not get itchy to get up and do something different? With all that TV viewing, how does a parent find time to care about their child's school work?
And this is a disturbing fact:
"Average number of hours the TV set is on during the day: 7 hrs., 12 minutes."
More yummy stats:
"Number of minutes per week most children spend watching TV = 1,197."
"Number of minutes per week most parents talk with their children = 38"
"81 % of 4th graders watch 14 or more hours of TV per week."
I wonder if that same percentage of 4th graders works on homework for 14 hours per week?
Kmorgan, here's a posting from last summer that seems to back up the argument a little more that parents should get most of the blame.
"When the state [taxpayer dollars] gave Toledo Public Schools $380,000 to prepare high school students for the Ohio Graduation Test, administrators were eager to help the students get ready. They scheduled Saturday sessions, before and after-school workshops, and summer programs. All were free. But just a handful of students turned out for the programs, school administrators said."
"Teachers called parents at all times of the day to inform them about the free summer session and sent letters explaining the test and the extra help students could get."
How are the teachers to blame for that?
Kmorgan, if you want racism, look at TPS teacher Rahwae Shuman.
A couple of Rahwae gems:
"The NAACP should be saying what I’m saying. It’s their fight. But you’ve got white people who consider us second-class citizens controlling the NAACP. ... That is a shame. I never thought I’d live to see that."
"It is disrespectful to Lincoln students to not have a single African-American teacher in the building. It's time for us to wake up. No other race in history has turned their children over to the enemy to be educated."
I wonder who Rahwae was referring to when he said "us" and "enemy?"
Rahwae also said:
"Our leadership has been bought out by our enemies, white people control the NAACP! You should be concerned; your child is spending eight hours a day with someone who considers them a slave."
That's a teacher in the TPS system. At least last year. Is he still employed by TPS? If not, then maybe I'll vote 'yes' for a TPS levy.
So yeah, maybe you're right Kmorgan. With extremists like Rahwae, maybe the teachers are to blame. According to the Blade article from last March:
"Rahwae Shuman has taught in the district for 21 years. Mr. Shuman teaches adult education at the old DeVilbiss High School building."
To show how little I know, I thought TPS was only K-12. I didn't know TPS was in the adult education business. Okay, so they are. That's fine. Sounds like a worthwhile program. But I'm not going to support an org that employs a publicly outspoken racist like Shuman. Why aren't Shuman's words labeled hate-speech?
Now it's time for me plant my butt in front of the TV and watch some fishing videos.
posted by jr at 07:03 P.M. EST on Fri Feb 25, 2005 #
First of all we need to realize we are in agreement as far as parents being most of the problem. I agree with that, but it is a problem with few solutions so focus on what is fixable.
I guess you didn't realize it but posting statistics with diffrent ethnicities television watching habits comes off as racial. It's cool if that thought never crossed your mind. I'm just letting you know now though it was a racest thing to post.
Kids television habits. You mean they watch TV 3 to 4 hours a day on average. Lets think about that though. Are they watching TV while they do homework like I used to do everyday?
This is on average so that means not all kids do it Some kids play sports and don't have time. The majority of kids in a school do not play sports. So what do you think they do, with their free time? Probably watch TV, because there isn't really much else to do. Yes they could do homework I suppose but does that mean they should never have any freetime at all. TV sounds bad but it is just something to relax and kids and adults need that relaxation everyday. Statistics are no good. You don't know what these kids do while they are watching TV. Most of the time it's probably homework it is the 21st century almost every kid has a TV in their room so they could be getting dressed, exercising, trying to watch TV to fall a sleep. I know everybody in my house watched TV to fall a sleep and that's an easy hour right there.
It doesn't have to be all at once either for example let say a kid wakes up watches his or her shows at 7:00 AM as they are getting dressed and brushing teeth and eating breakfast. then they leave for school at we'll say 8:00. After school they walk in the door get something to eat and watch another hour of TV to relax as they eat a snack after school and do homework. Another sitcom at dinner accounts for another half hour and an hour before they go to sleep.
Sound silly? I don't think so I think that is a normal, average scheduel and there is 3 and a half hours of TV watching in there, but your statistic will not tell you all that. It just says numbers.
Maybe you think TV is a waste of time and kids should play sports and be active, but the bottom line is not all kids get picked for the teams or even like sports, and if they'd rather watch TV that decision is theirs in our free society. There's worse things they could be doing.
You have to think about these statistics and what they tell you and don't tell you. They are usually used as a tool to get people to think a certain way. for example I asked a principal the benefits of uniforms she said behavior improved 100% during the first quarter of the school year at Cherry elementary. Sound good? Well I looked into it and the 100% was because last year one kid was suspended during the first quarter and 0 this year. So 1 kid was the hundred percent. WOW, but when you tell parents that, it promotes uniforms eventhough there is no difference.
posted by Kmorgan at 10:49 P.M. EST on Fri Feb 25, 2005 #
If anybody has been reading this conversation feel free to speak your piece about school uniforms. I want to hear what people think about this
posted by Kmorgan at 02:46 A.M. EST on Sun Feb 27, 2005 #
It's a constitutional right being taken from our kids because people in Toledo don't care.
Pathetic
If people cared they would say no-way this isn't happening and it wouldn't.
People who standby and do nothing ought to be ashamed.
Do you people who are in favor of uniforms really want them because it saves money? Is that how easy you sell out on your kids freedom?
You ought to be ashamed too.
You people who support uniforms but know it is a violation of the constitution of the United States.
ought to be ashamed
People who sell out on kids individuality for control
ought to be ashamed
Everybody in this city who stood by and let this happen
ought to be ashamed
posted by Kmorgan at 11:30 P.M. EST on Tue Mar 01, 2005 #
Uniforms are almost next-to-last on my list of problems with public schools.
I have children in one school without a uniform policy, and children in others with official uniforms.
In my opinion, children in settings where everyone is dressed the same perform better, and are more focused on learning.
The children who go to the "anything goes" school are obsessed with their clothes, their shoes, and how they look.
Clothes are a way of reinforcing social distinctions, and the kids with the $200 athletic shoes wear them for one reason: to broadcast their inflated view of themselves.
I highly doubt, KMorgan, that children are in any way harmed by wearing boring clothes for 7 hours a day.
Also, the "individuality" that you decry as being restricted may be the source of social ills. Sociopaths, of course, are the ultimate in individuality: they can conceive only of their own self-importance and individuality.
Finally, they are children. That means that they are legally barred from making decisions for themselves, and with good reason.
I, for example, thought I was capable of making all major life decisions at age 14. Oh yes, pass the whiskey, pal! I'm 14, and I should be free to make my own decisions!
Yikes. People should be buried at age 12, and then dug up at age 21.
While wearing uniforms, of course.
posted by historymike at 12:07 A.M. EST on Wed Mar 02, 2005 #
I got news historymike I wore uniforms to a public schools that didn't have a uniform policy, and in and out of uniform I was the same person. I was a United States Sailor for 4 years, in and out of uniform I was the same person. My point is uniforms don't change how kids act. if you don't believe me walk into Longfellow elementary on any give afternoon. I did, it was a zoo in there, kids were allover running in the hallways, but they did have uniforms on.
Guess what that kid with the $200 dollar shoes either has parents who worked hard for them or he worked hard for them. So why shouldn't he be able to enjoy them. Should I go through college to make sure my kids have the best and then have a school tell me they are wearing pickway or payless shoes, anyway? That's killing the American dream that if you work hard you get nice things.
Seriously why should I work for my kids to have nice things if the rules don't even allow it? When it's all said and done kids will find something else to show off. It's how people try to be "cool" like you wouldn't like to drive a pice of junk if you could affor a BMW. Most adults would buy the BMW and show off the cash, it's a natural thing. Why do we think kids shouldn't do it, is beyond me, they're going to do it. Take their shoes and they'll find something else to do it through.
I say: whoopy $hit, so the kid wants to show off his shoes, just let it go. It's not that important to take there rights away.
They wear the uniforms 7 hours a day, but it is the biggest most active 7 hours of their day. It's during that period when they see all their friends.
Kids are not legally barred from making choices. kids make choices everyday. ages 0 to 16. You don't think 14 year olds choose to drink whiskey if they want? are you kidding me?
As far as kids being burried from the ages 14 to 21 well you are getting your wish everyday becasue a lot of these soldiers (who are in no way shape or form kids) are 17 to 20 year old "kids" in your words. I served when I was 17 and that's why I don't consider 17 to be a kid above. Hell in my naval experience I knew a 17 year old "kid" that trained with SEALS and you think we should dress them for school?
posted by Kmorgan at 01:08 A.M. EST on Wed Mar 02, 2005 #
The 17 to 20 year old kids might be killed in action fighting for you to have the right to sit there and have the freedom to say they should be BURRIED, go visit their gravesites and thank them at least.
posted by Kmorgan at 01:16 A.M. EST on Wed Mar 02, 2005 #
"... I did, it was a zoo in there, kids were allover running in the hallways"
That's the one of the main problems with public schools today: no discipline. The discipline has been removed from public schools over the past 20 years. Gone are the days when a teacher would wack the misbehaved kids with a wooden paddle. A hulking football or wrestling coach glaring at us in study hall with his trusty, wooden, hole-filled companion lying on top of the desk was enough to get us to be quiet.
Teachers used to be allowed to grab a misbehaving kid by the arm and shake them up or drag them to the office. At basketball practice in my senior year of high school, the head coach went off on one of the troublemakers on our team. The coach repeatedly slapped the kid in the face right in front of the rest of us. The coach had had enough with the punk. If the kid wasn't getting the discipline at home, the coach figured, "I'll slap the hell out of you." But it was too late to save this kid. The dude needed a lot more discipline earlier in life. He was a senior too, and a good friend of mine, but he was trouble. He got kicked out of school permenantly a few weeks later for urinating on the school librarian's desk after school hours.
Discipline has been removed from the schools. Touch a kid today and all of sudden the parents wake up and want to sue the school board, which results in the teacher getting fired.
My brother has been a high school football coach in North Carolina since the late 80's. He said that he can't handle the players today like he could years ago. The kids are in full pads, but you can't grab them and slap them like in the old days.
I can remember football coaches kicking me in the ass and slapping me in the helment, and I deserved it. It gets your attention.
Teachers today are marking up papers with ink in a different color than red, because red is too harsh for the kids' feelings. Some nonsense like that. Come on.
posted by jr at 07:18 A.M. EST on Wed Mar 02, 2005 #
Kmorgan:
My comments were not meant to be taken literally. This is called "satire." Read up on the definition.
I obviously do not believe children should be literally buried.
I honor our sevice men and women in many ways, sir. Don't impugn my patriotism, especially since you don't even know me. I have family members and friends overseas, so I have a personal stake in the slaughter of Americans in the Middle East that is being perpetrated in the name of freedom and democracy.
Given your hatred of uniforms, it is amazing that you ever managed to get through 4 years of the military.
And yes, kids ARE legally barred from making choices. They have no legal rights about making decisions until age 18. This is the law. Read up on it.
Now, they can CHOOSE to act any way they want. But the law is clear - either a parent or a legal guardian, appointed by the state, is responsible for children.
I am fully aware that children make adult-like decisions, such as whether or not to use intoxicating substances. I find this disturbing, but it sounds as though you are advocating that children should be allowed to do whatever they want, whenever they want.
As a parent of seven teenagers, let me say this: they are capable of incredible bouts of bad thinking. If left to their own devices, they would make decisions that would harm them, such as dropping out of school, or using intoxicants, or engaging in unprotected sex.
Your comments about BMWs and expensive luxuries are bizarre. I do not know a single person who has this obsession with showing off their toys. Perhaps I run with a boring crowd.
My day-to-day vehicle of choice: a 17-year old Honda. It gets almost 40 MPG, but looks old. You see, I would much rather drive what you call a "junker," because I have no desire to "show off the cash." I find such behavior revolting.
I shudder to think that the "American dream" is all about flashy "bling bling." Lord, to what depths have we been reduced?
If this truly is your idea of what life is all about, I feel sorry for you.
posted by historymike at 07:20 A.M. EST on Wed Mar 02, 2005 #
Well you got some of it right. Good move on clearing up the "buried" comment
I DON'T DON'T DON'T hate uniform. I want to clear that up. I DO DO DO hate violations of constitutional rights. I value the right that allows our kids to be who they want to be. Don't confuse the two. If my kid wanted to wear a uniform that is GREAT. At least he had the right to choose. I had the right to choose whether I wore a uniform or not. I wore a uniform to a school that DIDN"T have a uniform policy, but I made my choice, and that's what I value.
DO YOU THINK THIS WHOLE THING IS ABOUT UNIFORMS? NO. IT'S ABOUT THE FREEDOM OF CHOICE GRANTED BY THE U.S. CONSTITUTION BEING TAKEN FROM AMERICAN CITIZENS. YOU ARE RIGHT. PARENTS DO MAKE CHOICES FOR KIDS BY LAW. SOME PARENTS LIKE YOU CHOOSE UNIFORMS, PARENTS LIKE ME OPPOSE IT. NOW WE HAVE A CONFLICT. YOU ARE TAKING MY RIGHT AS A PARENT TO MAKE CHOICES FOR MY KID BY IMPOSING MANDATORY UNIFORM POLICIES. EVEN YOU SAID PARENTS MAKE THE CHOICES FOR KIDS. I CHOSE NO UNIFORMS BUT MY KID HAS TO WEAR ONE. THAT IS THE POINT.
YOU SEE WE CAN GO BACK AND FORTH WITH THE PROS AND CONS ABOUT UNIFORMS, BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY YOU WILL HAVE YOUR BELIEFS AND I'LL HAVE MINE. IN OUR BEAUTIFUL COUNTRY WE HAD THE RIGHT TO DISAGREE AND YOU MAKE YOUR CHOICE AND I MAKE MINE...THAT'S WHY THIS IS THE GREATEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD!!!!!! WE HAD THE FREEDOM TO BE FREE OF OTHER PEOPLES BELIEFS!!!!!! NOT ANYMORE THOUGH. WE'RE WRECKING THAT ONE
Children shouldn't be able to do whatever they want either. That's not at all what I'm saying. They should have freedom to make certain choices though, I mean they are human regardless of age.
"My day-to-day vehicle of choice: a 17-year old Honda. It gets almost 40 MPG, but looks old. You see, I would much rather drive what you call a "junker," because I have no desire to "show off the cash." I find such behavior revolting"
Smart choice, but most Americans do like to show off through their possessions. Why do some rich people collect art, why don't rich people drive a 17 year old Honda that runs good and is economical? you are an exception, and there are a lot of down to earth people like you out there but not the majority.
"I shudder to think that the "American dream" is all about flashy "bling bling." Lord, to what depths have we been reduced?"
So do I
Let me clear it up for you BLING BLING has nothing to do with it.
The dream was in this quote.
"Should I go through college to make sure my kids have the best and then have a school tell me they are wearing pickway or payless shoes, anyway? That's killing the American dream that if you work hard you get nice things."
posted by Kmorgan at 01:59 P.M. EST on Wed Mar 02, 2005 #
I guess we disagree about the American dream.
My interpretation has nothing to do with "nice things," but rather concepts like freedom and equality.
C'est la vie.
posted by historymike at 02:20 P.M. EST on Wed Mar 02, 2005 #
Freedom is your american dream?
HOW ABOUT GIVING ME THE FREEDOM TO CHOOSE WHETHER MY KID WEARS UNIFORMS OR NOT.
Do you agree that if you want your kids to wear uniforms then you should have the freedom to do so, and If I don't want my kids to wear uniforms then I should have that freedom? DOES ANYBODY AGREE WITH THIS?
You might want to think about that freedom thing. It's disappearing fast.
posted by Kmorgan at 08:45 P.M. EST on Wed Mar 02, 2005 #
If you want the freedom to not have have your kids wear uniforms, then I point you back to my first comment from Feb 11. Simply move to a school district that doesn't have a uniform policy. That's a freedom we have. No government is preventing you from moving. If you have a job someday that has a dress code you disagree with, you have the freedom to quit that job.
posted by jr at 10:26 A.M. EST on Thu Mar 03, 2005 #
Sorry. Of all the assaults on our freedoms, kids wearing school uniforms is a pretty minor threat.
Find a real infringement upon which to focus your anger, like those on freedom of speech, freedom of religion, or freedom to assemble.
And don't tie school uniforms into freedom of speech, because you will find little support.
Except from 12-year olds.
posted by historymike at 12:38 P.M. EST on Thu Mar 03, 2005 #
That's what's sad. little support.
JR why should I move I live in a free society, you want kids to wear uniforms you schould have to move not me. People wh want uniforms can move to Cuba, how about that, you don't like that idea do you?
OK educator mike tell me why the teachers union allows teachers to dress down every other friday while the students have to wear uniforms except on school pride days, when their dress is still regulated by school colors. What message does that send to kid???????
posted by Kmorgan at 02:27 P.M. EST on Thu Mar 03, 2005 #
Maybe the kids should form their union, KMorgan.
There you go. Get 'em signed up, partner! Fight da power!
posted by historymike at 03:11 P.M. EST on Thu Mar 03, 2005 #
No maybe the parents and teachers and every other responsible adult in the United States in favor of uniforms or not should wake up and realize our rights granted by the U.S. constitution are being taken.
Maybe these people who favor uniforms should quit being selfish and realize they live in a free society full of all the diffrent people in the world and it is ethically wrong to dress force people to wear a uniform.
OH and kids can have sit ins, and riot about this like they did in the 60's... history teacher mike
posted by Kmorgan at 03:45 P.M. EST on Thu Mar 03, 2005 #
Are you incapable of reading, or are you deliberately trying to distort my words?
I'l write it for you...slowly...so you'll get it.
1. I...do...not...favor...uniforms.
2. I...have...kids...in...both...types...of...schools.
3. My...kids...in...the...uniform...school...are...more...focused.
4. My...kids...in...the..."anything goes"...school...are...obsessed...with...fashion...and...studies...come...second.
5. There...are...in...my...opinion...bigger...threats...to...freedom...than...school uniforms.
posted by historymike at 04:30 P.M. EST on Thu Mar 03, 2005 #
"I have children in one school without a uniform policy, and children in others with official uniforms.
In my opinion, children in settings where everyone is dressed the same perform better, and are more focused on learning.
The children who go to the "anything goes" school are obsessed with their clothes, their shoes, and how they look."
hyphenate it as much as you want this is what you said and sorry but like most of the people on the site it sounds like you do NOT favor uniforms
Where is this "anything goes" school? School dresscodes are almost as ridiculous as uniforms. like at Whitmer th dress code says anything in good taste, what the hell does that mean? Whose taste? It's a fail safe.
I - UNDERSTAND - THAT - YOU - HAVE - KIDS - IN BOTH - SCHOOLS.
DO - YOU - UNDERSTAND - WHAT - YOU - HAVE - SAID
HERE - IS - YOUR - QUOTES
"I...do...not...favor...uniforms.
2. I...have...kids...in...both...types...of...schools.
3. My...kids...in...the...uniform...school...are...more...focused.
4. My...kids...in...the..."anything goes"...school...are...obsessed...with...fashion...and...studies...come...second."
so - why - are - you - arguing - against - me - with - the - uniform - policy? if you have experience with both and you don't favor uniforms? Your supposed to be arguing with me not against me.
posted by Kmorgan at 05:11 P.M. EST on Thu Mar 03, 2005 #
What are these other threats to freedom you speak of history mike, please give me a better example than not allowing a kid to stand at a football game.
I think what you meant to say is that you don't care because they are just kids, not worthy of the freedom you possess.
posted by Kmorgan at 05:13 P.M. EST on Thu Mar 03, 2005 #
Ha ha.
Two posts back, you didn't read (or quote) the last post.
Then suddenly, you got it. Amazing. You realized that I disagree about the IMPORTANCE of this issue in relation to far greater abuses of freedoms.
Then, for some reason, you go on the attack: "I think what you meant to say is that you don't care because they are just kids, not worthy of the freedom you possess."
Sigh.
I wish I could read minds like you, KMorgan. Wow. You know EXACTLY what I am thinking.
(HINT: that was SARCASM. S-A-R-C-A-S-M. I do not really think that way. I actually care very much about children, since I have a house full of them. I just don't think they are harmed by wearing a school uniform, that's all).
Finally, do you REALLY not know about rampant abuses of freedoms occurring right here in the good old USA?
You have really never heard of Guantanamo Bay? The Patriot Act? The Espionage Acts? FBI and CIA torture of suspects?
Are you kidding me?
Or do these not count as assaults on freedoms?
posted by historymike at 05:24 P.M. EST on Thu Mar 03, 2005 #
Ok mike you arent' folowing me try this
At a football game kids can't even stand, and they did nothing wrong.
lets pretend the rule said black people can't stand.
It's the same thing. Do you get it yet? Americans are losing their rights
Guantanamo Bay? The Patriot Act? The Espionage Acts? FBI and CIA torture of suspects?
You don't have as much influence on these things as you do on uniforms in Toledo.
The stuff your talking about is like trying to stop world hunger or something.
posted by Kmorgan at 10:14 P.M. EST on Thu Mar 03, 2005 #
Ah. I see.
Let's ignore the BIG issues that seem so hopeless, and focus on the small ones that are close to home.
You know, they just put a stop sign at the end of my block. There never used to be one there before.
Man! They are taking away my freedoms!
It all makes sense now.
Thank you, Kmorgan, for showing me the light.
posted by historymike at 11:06 P.M. EST on Thu Mar 03, 2005 #
There you go, see you can do something about that stop sign.
HEY PEOPLE ARE VIOLATING THE CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS OF AMERICANS!!!!!! HOW MUCH BIGGER OF AN ISSUE DO YOU WANT!!!!!!!
So anyway, what are you doing for that whole Guantanamo Bay situation?
posted by Kmorgan at 12:54 A.M. EST on Fri Mar 04, 2005 #
hey jr what are your thoughts on all this I notice in the past you were in these Uniform converations a little more hard core.
Do you think as an American I deserve the right to dress my kid how I want?
posted by Kmorgan at 01:27 A.M. EST on Fri Mar 04, 2005 #
During recess my brother ran out into the parking lot and instead of running around a semi he ran under it. The principal told my dad about it and asked him to handle it.
When my brother came home my dad punished him for it, then my brother began writing over and over I will not run under semis, he was going to write it 500 times. that is until my dad said he wasn't doing that penalty.
So the next day the principal calls my dad and asks him about it, my dad said you told me to handle it and I did, he is not going to be punished twice. The principal asks "what did you do to him." Dad says thats between me and him and its none of your business. By the way what did you do to your teacher who let my eight year old run out into a parking lot, under a semi?
The principal had a loss for words.
We are so quick to blame the kids.
posted by Kmorgan at 01:46 A.M. EST on Fri Mar 04, 2005 #
"Do you think as an American I deserve the right to dress my kid how I want?"
Yes, and you can at Rossford, P-burg, Maumee, on and on. But even at these other schools, I bet you will still find some rules about what's acceptable to wear.
You have the most freedom with your child at home. Home school your kids. That's another freedom we have.
Shocking, but we do have rules in society. Freedoms in the workplace are dictated by the employee handbook for that company. You just can't do whatever you want in the workplace, unless you own the business. There are all kinds of rules at some companies that employees think are rediculous, but that's just the way it is.
Besides learning math, reading, and writing that will help a kid in the real world someday, learning to follow rules is another lesson that's good for a child.
My stepdaughter has been wearing a uniform to school for eight years, and she's got four more of the same. You'd have to ask her if she thinks her freedoms have been violated, but at 14, she knows that fashion in school is not even on the list of what's important.
I have no sense or interest in fashion. It's a waste of time, energy, and money. I dress as grungy today as I did when I was 8. Being obsessed with fashion is an example of a misplaced priority. I just don't get it. Being a math major and a computer programmer, I view the world too often in binary mode. A person is either naked nor not. Beyond that conclusion, it's irrelevant.
I've beaten the cotton and polyester out of this topic.
posted by jr at 07:35 P.M. EST on Fri Mar 04, 2005 #
OK I guess Toledo is not an American City?
Right?
posted by Kmorgan at 10:42 P.M. EST on Fri Mar 04, 2005 #
JR All those things you say are awesome and I respect your views, however I feel it is iportant to let my kid decide what they want to wear and go to school as the person they want to be. Is that too much too ask?
posted by Kmorgan at 02:52 A.M. EST on Sat Mar 05, 2005 #
Hey JR forget about uniforms for a second.
Are you opposed to violations of the U.S. Constitution?
posted by Kmorgan at 04:20 P.M. EST on Sun Mar 06, 2005 #
Lets agree to disagree about uniforms.
Now lets raise the real argument
Do you think parents deserve to choose how their children are raised?
posted by Kmorgan at 08:22 P.M. EST on Sun Mar 06, 2005 #
Parents should have to register their children at the Department of Really Wise Government Officials, who will make all decisions for them.
Then, children should be shuttled to Nurturing Camps, where qualified CareGivers will shape and mold them during their formative years.
Federally-run Freedom schools should be built on these campsites, where children can be indoctrinated in the most important virtues, such as obedience to authority, conformity, and worshipping the correct god.
Of course, they will be required to wear unisex, formless uniforms, so that biological differences cannot be easily seen.
Days should be spent doing marching drills, studying important subjects like engineering and math, and reciting loyalty oaths.
Each day will end with the students bowing before the flag, and praying for our nation to be safe from terrorism.
"Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of Death, I will fear no evil, for the Department of Fatherland Security is with me. World without end, amen."
Or something like that.
posted by historymike at 09:44 A.M. EST on Mon Mar 07, 2005 #
Oh, don't forget to send them door to door to strangers houses selling candy to raise money for their concentr... I mean schools
posted by Kmorgan at 02:53 P.M. EST on Mon Mar 07, 2005 #
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