I seriously considered renting one of the apartments at the Commodore Perry quite recently. It is an awesome location and had it not been for the objections (understandable) of one of my children who wanted to continue to go to high school with her friends? I'd probably be living there now. I also love the lofts though they are out of my price range.
posted by psyche777 at 01:31 P.M. EST on Thu Sep 15, 2005 #
I wrote a brief paper for a history class on the history of the Commodore Perry Motor Inn building and I don't think many Toledoans realize how historic the building is.
I have not seen the Hillcrest or LaSalle apartments, but assume they are very nice buildings.
The leasing agent at the Commodore Perry is a sweatheart and was very willing to show off the building to me when I visited.
Thanks JR for keeping us informed!
posted by lloyd at 08:20 P.M. EST on Thu Sep 15, 2005 #
The Bartley Lofts are extraordinary, but a little pricey for me. I recently got to tour one of the models and it was quite gorgeous. Very 'metropolitan.' Reminded me of those trendy loft apartments in NY and Boston.
The River West Condos are also beautiful. While they look rather plain from the outside, they are gorgeous inside.
posted by DoknowDocare at 09:10 P.M. EST on Thu Sep 15, 2005 #
Why?
Why on the green earth does anyone seriously think that laying down $120K-$180K for a "Bartley Loft" is a worthwhile expense?
ESPECIALLY since your downtown job is under significant threat of dismissal (due to outsourcing and offshoring) or regional move?
Who has this kind of money to throw away?
ESPECIALLY since housing is in a nationwide investment bubble that is about to pop? And in fact, is already popping in Toledo since home prices started to decline in 2003?
Is it because there's some horse-faced b*stard sitting behind a mortgage desk in some bank that is willing to lend you the money as long as you appear to have a heartbeat? Is it because when you save NO MONEY each month whatsoever, you end up having that much more to inflate a mortgage payment?
The Hillcrest or LaSalle apartment deals are ALREADY a substantial failure. They REQUIRE city subsidy. It's been well reported that $650/mo apartments are only being filled at $450/mo. That's a hell of shortfall; that's an enormous difference between projected and actual REVENUE.
Yet the developers -- who as we can note always seem to have money to build, yet cry poor when it comes time to ask them for work positions -- have gone on a veritable construction frenzy, putting up a large number condos. Who is supposed to sustainably buy and live in these overpriced units?
Toledo is already stuck with at least one long-term bond repayment ... literally, it will cost the city a significant amount each year until 2025 to pay that particular bond series off. And it's all because the city politicians thought they were some hotshot loan officers or investment bankers, and signed on a dotted line that stretched below such ruinous terms that the common man (who MUST balance his own checkbook or something terrible happens) can only rip his hair out in frustration when he hears of them.
How much more of this foolishness will go on? I'm seeing people hurry to get in "under the wire" on bankruptcy. (Literally, I have a friend who MUST bankrupt, or the new minimum paymets (by law) will force immediate default.) After that, with rising interest rates, the "easy credit" bubble MUST POP. And then I wouldn't give a stack of dog-chewed wooden nickels for any of this downtown housing crap.
posted by GuestZero at 10:59 P.M. EST on Fri Sep 16, 2005 #
Regarding previous comment:
If there is this big "housing bubble" about to burst, why in heck would bankers be so loose in loaning money, especially when there is significant chance of default? They aren't interested in foreclosing on a sinking investment. The only reason banks do these "interest only" (in my opinion rip-off) mortgages, is that they are basically renting the homes to the mortgage-holders. In the event that they do default, they know that since property historically increase in value, the risk of loosing money is small.
I do agree with your comment about some downtown housing being under priced (the apartments you mentioned). As I mentioned, I wrote a paper on the Commodore Perry, and was surprised how inexpensive the rents were. Much of this is due to government subsidies for low income residents. I find myself not being a big fan of apartments and find they have a weird smell and the walls usually have 20 coats of paint on them and the common areas are dirty...lol.
On the other hand, the price for the Bartley lofts has increased dramatically. When they were first proposed, they were starting at $85,000 approximately. I'm glad I didn't commit any money back then because that was probably 3 years ago.
Does anyone know of anyone who was in that situation????? Have their funds been tied up all of this time??
posted by lloyd at 11:24 P.M. EST on Fri Sep 16, 2005 #
GuestZero says:
"Yet the developers have gone on a veritable construction frenzy, putting up a large number condos. Who is supposed to sustainably buy and live in these overpriced units?"
Sep 18 Blade article about are condos and who's buying them and why.
" "My house didn't sell for as much as I paid here," conceded the retired teacher, who plunked down $200,000 for a new unit in the Villas at Quarries Edge Development, off Centennial Road."
"For the first time last year, median-priced condos and cooperatives nationally sold for more than traditional homes."
"Nationally, condo prices are increasing three times as fast as single-family homes, according to a study at the end of 2004 by the Joint Center for Housing Studies at Harvard University. That has prompted a building boom with developers boosting condo construction 50 percent in two years, the study found."
"Demand is coming from younger buyers as well as empty-nesters looking to capitalize on skyrocketing housing values by trading down to smaller, lower-prices condos and pulling the equity out of family homes."
"The reality in some high-priced markets is that many first-time buyers have been priced out of single-family homes and have turned to condos as an affordable alternative, she said."
"[In Toledo], however, single parents represent a growing market for condos, said sales agent Rachel Osnowitz. "People are so busy raising their kids that they don't want to take time to do yard work and shovel the snow," said the agent, who is with Danberry Co. Realtors."
Some people don't want to deal with a zillion other time-wasting, life-wasting activities that come with owning a home. Every year something needs fixed or replaced. You're not trying to own the home. The home owns you. Traditional home-ownership is severely overrated, in my opinion.
More from the Blade article:
"Typical scenarios involve working mothers with teenage children who are house-hunting after selling the family place when their marriages dissolve. "They want their kids to finish high school in Sylvania, but can't afford a single-family house," Ms. Osnowitz said."
Other condos are a bit more expensive:
"Current listings include a villa on Old Post Road for $405,000, Citation Road for $465,000, and King's Hollow Court for $300,000. The Northwoods subdivision, in Sylvania on land that was formerly part of a camp operated by the Boy Scouts, includes 75 high-end villas."
"Developer Jim McGowan said he has had little trouble selling the lots, where the value of villas ranges from about $400,000 to $750,000."
"While the advancing age of the Baby Boom generation is most often cited as an explanation for the popularity of condominiums, the trend is actually being driven by several demographic factors, said Anthony Sanders, director of the Center for Real Estate Education and Research at the Ohio State University."
"More singles are buying houses. More couples are either childless or opting for one child. For these people, "the economics of a three- to five-bedroom house is poor," Mr. Sanders said."
posted by jr at 11:08 A.M. EST on Sun Sep 18, 2005 #
Lloyd, banks don't have a long-term view anymore. They are driven by the next fiscal period as much as any other modern business. Their stockholders demand it.
So they loan money out to people as no-interest, negative-amortization, no-income-verification, and no-asset-verification.
The REAL question here is:
Why do YOU believe that banks are examples of financial sanity?
Lloyd, read up on the S&L bust and then come back here when you have a better understanding on EXACTLY how foolish that lending institutions can be.
Ultimately, banking foolishness and criminality can be negotiated or sold away, hence putting the onus for actual payments upon the sucker of last resort: THE FEDERAL TAXPAYER. Ultimately, with the revenue share from corporations and the wealthy dropping, this means from the working class.
Hence, YOU. YOU are the reason that banks are being so foolish. They are counting on YOU, me, and every other working-class sap on this site and elsewhere, to cover these bad debts.
posted by GuestZero at 03:41 P.M. EST on Sun Sep 18, 2005 #
Guestzero,
Maybe you need to read my post again, as I was referring to the fact that the banks wouldn't be lending money to working-class sap (as you mention) in a market where property values are sinking.
What kind of grudge do you have against banking that makes you so abrasive??? People are choosing to get themselves up to their necks in debt.
I didn't realize you had such an understanding of my individual financial situation as well...lol.
By the way, I am well versed in banking and economics, are you???
posted by lloyd at 05:03 P.M. EST on Mon Sep 19, 2005 #
Back to the original topic, I took the tour and loved it. I enjoy walking through those old buildings and seeing what developers, residents, and businesses have done with them. Damn cool. I'll post some pics later.
I talked with the real estate person for the Bartley Lofts. I asked her who was buying them. She said single men age 27 to 35. Yeah, she gave me the exact age range. She said they were mainly lawyers, brokers, and accountants. Then it skips ahead a couple generations, and she said older, single women are buying them. While I was there, a few older women were checking out the loft and asking about the process of buying one.
The people who have leased or are leasing lofts at the Bakery building include a journalist, architect, lawyer, graphics designer, interior designer.
posted by jr at 10:43 P.M. EST on Mon Sep 19, 2005 #
GuestZero,
There's definitely a market for people living downtown. I don't think we have to worry too much about the Toledo market bursting. Toledo's (actually all of the central US) real estate values haven't seen the dramatic increases that CA, NYC, Boston, Washington DC, etc. have seen. They're the markets that will go bust because they're overpriced. Recent history has shown that downtown investment is pretty profitable, so spending $150,000 on a loft can be viewed as an investment much like a house in Maumee or Sylvania.
posted by HeyHey at 11:30 P.M. EST on Mon Sep 19, 2005 #
Officially, the Bartley Lofts are not open yet, but several have been pre-sold. The real estate agent gave me a fact sheet. The building has 52 units on six floors. 21 are sold with two others on hold. People started buying them last December. The size of the lofts vary from 706 to 2,605 sq. ft.
The big one has been sold, so I don't know the price of that one. Ditto for the small ones. The cheapest on the list goes for $196,630, and that's 1,293 sq. ft. The most expensive one available for sale is $387,632, and that one is 2,200 sq. ft. on the seventh floor.
The rooftop of the Bartley Lofts building will contain a swimming pool.
The lofts in the Bakery building are very nice. Those are for rent. It's a mixed-use building with five commercial offices and eight residential lofts. The "City Room" and deck on the rooftop is cool.
posted by jr at 12:16 A.M. EST on Tue Sep 20, 2005 #
HeyHey, if Toledo continues to lose businesses and population, then what would YOU call it when the market makes its adjustment? "Nonexpanding reallocation"? "Strategic retrenchment"?
Those condos are selling like they are for the significant reason that credit is easy to get. It's too easy. That can't last. Despite Lloyd's arm breaking (from patting himself on the back), this is FISCAL REALITY. People are shouldering very large debts in a collapsing economy.
Sure, there will always be pockets of the well-to-do. My senses clearly tell me that Toledo cannot sustain all the pockets that have been built and that are being built. Toledo metro neighborhoods are particularly at risk for wholesale collapse. This disease is creeping across prior strong areas like West Toledo -- for the same reasons revolving around the collapse of the working class.
If anyone here is comfortable living like a Third-World scenario like Central America, then Toledo in the next 30 years is going to be a great place for you. For the rest of us sane citizens, it is going to be a horror. Admittedly, Toledo is ALREADY a horror to a significant degree, seeing that obtaining a home in a neighborhood reasonably safe from hoodlums means shouldering $150K of debt in a job market that sucks wad. These homes are at least $60K overpriced, perhaps as much as $80K considering the lack of jobs that MUST determine what area working-class housing is really worth.
There just aren't enough lawyers, accountants and brokers to make Toledo a livable place for the REAL working class. This housing bubble has happened many times in the past, and even in the recent past (Texas, California, Massachusetts). Why does our culture pretend it isn't happening again?
P.S. People like Lloyd have fallen in love with wealth and debt, hence will never understand righteous contempt for those mortgage policies that rubber-stamp people who merely fog a mirror in order to qualify for a home loan, not by presenting themselves as good risks (which is the soundness that banks SHOULD be built on). Homes are simply being used to screw people out of a lot of money by "flipping" them from one prior-overpaying seller to another larger-overpaying buyer. This is an outrage and must stop before we transform Toledo into a Third World country even when the rest the nation's prosperous areas recover.
posted by GuestZero at 12:31 A.M. EST on Tue Sep 20, 2005 #
GuestZero,
Maybe its time to turn off CNN and read the effing comments. You don't seem to understand that I am agreeing with you, people are choosing to be in debt. Of course the banks market them, but if there wasn't a demand, there wouldn't be a supply... would there Mr. Economist.
If you think the Toledo housing market is overpriced, how about looking for a home in a market that has a good economy.
I ask again....why are you so grumpy???
posted by lloyd at 09:06 A.M. EST on Tue Sep 20, 2005 #
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