Does raise a number of interesting thoughts:
#1, A fishing store right by a marina? Sounds like an ideal match!
#2, Ive been to BassPro in another state. They sell guns. Carty hates guns. (of course, elitist that he is, he also has a CC permit..)
posted by billy at 08:05 A.M. EST on Wed Jan 18, 2006 #
Bass Pro Shop is a good Idea. Cabelas serves the same niche but is over rated, over priced, over crowded, and anything with their name on is probably junk. Bass Pros are great draws without all the extra hoopla. Their Worldwide Sportsman (fishing emphasis, no guns)stores are especially nice at marinas.
posted by Offshore at 08:16 A.M. EST on Wed Jan 18, 2006 #
Cabela's in Dundee is my favorite place to shop. I started visiting Cabela's the day after it opened in the fall of 2000. I've spent a lot of money there since. I've had zero problems with Cabela's gear or with anything that I've purchased there. In fact, I love my Cabela's outdoor gear. And the store is so big that I never feel crowded even when I can't hardly find a spot in the parking lot. Most times when my parents come up to visit, we make a trip to Cabela's. I can easily spend three hours there without trying. I grew up hunting and trapping, and now I fish, go birding, and do some skiing. So Cabela's is my "kind" of store.
At least in my case, Offshore's observations about Cabela's are unfounded. It wouldn't be the top or one of the top tourist attractions in Michigan if what Offshore said was remotely true. It wouldn't still be a huge draw after 5+ years if what they sold was overpriced junk.
Gerken's comments in the NBC 24 story about the possibility of a Bass Pro Shops coming to Toledo were about a lot of people like me. Gerken said:
"I think we better be rivaling Cabela's. I'd like nothing better than to see those sales tax dollars come to Lucas County rather than Monroe County."
Not only do I spend money at Cabela's, but some of the other businesses around the Cabela's in Dundee get my money. And I've spent money in the restaurants in downtown Dundee. I've even taken friends to Cabela's for an evening out just so they could see the place. Then afterwards, we would go downtown Dundee and eat.
posted by jr at 09:06 A.M. EST on Wed Jan 18, 2006 #
You’re right JR, mostly. When Cabelas first opened I thought I was going to have my own parking space because I’d be there all the time. I was at their first store years ago and have loved them ever since. That is, until leaky waders, faulty reels, broken this and that; all with their name but that could be coincidence. I was there last Saturday and the lines were soooo long and with no order to them.
I too take out of town guest there and support Dundee but I still think Cabelas prices are higher and can find things cheaper other places. All in all, I’d rather be in the field, marsh, lake, woods, or sea. See you outside.
posted by Offshore at 10:38 A.M. EST on Wed Jan 18, 2006 #
"I’d rather be in the field, marsh, lake, woods, or sea. See you outside."
Indeed. I think it was Ted Nugent who said the real environmentalists are the people who hunt, fish, and trap.
posted by jr at 12:08 P.M. EST on Thu Jan 19, 2006 #
Indeed. I think it was Ted Nugent who said the real environmentalists are the people who hunt, fish, and trap.
I would like to take this opportunity to point out VP Dick Cheney's little duck hunting trip with Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia, and ask people to consider that in light of what the Nuge says about who the real environmentalists are, and then ask everyone to compare that to the Bush Administration's stance on environmentalism/global warming/Kyoto Accords.
And don't forget all that vacation time Bush takes to go whack weeds on his ranch in Texas or whatever the hell it is he does down there.
(and for the record, I used to do a lot of duck/goose hunting and a lot of fishing)
posted by anonymouscoward at 12:37 P.M. EST on Thu Jan 19, 2006 #
The real people who hunt, fish, and trap and truly get to know the outdoors participate in their activity more than once or twice a year. It's interesting how hard it is to hunt ducks or trap muskrats on an asphalt parking lot or among a blob of condos.
posted by jr at 02:34 P.M. EST on Thu Jan 19, 2006 #
The real people who hunt, fish, and trap and truly get to know the outdoors participate in their activity more than once or twice a year. It's interesting how hard it is to hunt ducks or trap muskrats on an asphalt parking lot or among a blob of condos.
Since this area has become those things, it's become impossible to duck hunt along the shores of the lake or Sandusky Bay. And the fishing's gone right to hell as well.
posted by anonymouscoward at 03:58 P.M. EST on Thu Jan 19, 2006 #
My freezer is full of Lake Erie fish and waterfowl all from those very areas even though, as you say, most of the original wetlands are gone due to being drained or filled for farming or for residential use. According to Lake Erie Coastal Ohio as much as 90 percent is gone but our local wetlands still support a large diversity of flora and fauna.
I am disappointed with Bush and his wetlands legislation but I try to depend on government for as little as I can; that is why I support certain environmentalist/conservationist organizations. My hunting buddies and I spend many hours and dollars developing wetlands if for no other reason than for eagle habitat or that of any other of the 140 bird species that nest within our wetlands.
Does that make me an environmentalist? Hell, I’ve been called worse.
posted by Offshore at 09:23 A.M. EST on Fri Jan 20, 2006 #
Ducks Unlimited does good work, right? I feel the Nature Conservancy also does good work. The Black Swamp Bird Observatory does a lot of avian research in hopes of preserving as much land as possible for migrating and nesting birds. The northwest Ohio lakeshore is a major migration area, which is why the BSBO opposes the idea of putting wind turbines along the lakeshore, but that's another fight for another day.
posted by jr at 12:31 P.M. EST on Fri Jan 20, 2006 #
( Sigh )
Jan 20 Blade op-ed:
"We also expressed the hope that the apparent determination by government officials and downtown business interests to build a new sports arena on the west side of the river doesn’t condemn the neighborhood of Front and Main Streets to the same fate. After all, history is not on East Toledo’s side."
Let's kick around some numbers for fun and frolic. Could be senseless. Maybe someone else can provide info.
Here's the posting about the sports arena workshops from last summer. Pizzuti presented an analysis, which said:
"On average, they would expect the arena to be active 110-120 days per year. It would have 8,000 - 10,000 seats."
120 days per year. Only 1/3 of the year. What about the other 240+ days? That's why, to me, the new Mud Hens stadium's positive influence in downtown development is overrated. The baseball stadium is just one more positive on a long list. The baseball stadium is only used 80 days a year, at most. How can the surrounding businesses survive with only 80 days a year of activity?
A new east side arena doesn't do much more. It would house events year round, but it's only 120 days per year. Not good enough.
We learned earlier this month that local officials have agreed to a 10,000 seat arena.
From the NBC24 story about Bass Pro that started this topic:
"The Marina District master site plan calls for a 150,000 square-foot "destination retailer" to anchor the whole project."
Cabela's in Dundee is 225,000 sq. ft.
Here is an Oct 2005 Blade story about development around Dundee's Cabela's:
"As the annual fall migration of hunters moving north begins, the village is adding another reason this week to draw visitors off the highway."
"Focus Hospitality Services, a Valparaiso, Ind.-based hotel company with 22 properties in the Midwest, broke ground Tuesday on a hotel/indoor water park that is literally in the front yard of Michigan's biggest single tourist draw."
"The company, which also operates three hotels in Adrian, will add an 86-room wing onto its existing Holiday Inn Express on Cabela's Drive, as well as a 53,000 square-foot indoor waterpark in the courtyard of its new "L" shaped hotel. Both additions are planned to open in mid-June at a cost of more than $26 million."
"Since it opened in August 2000, Cabela's in Dundee has remained Michigan's single biggest tourist attraction, drawing an estimated 6 million visitors each year to the formerly tiny village in the western part of Monroe County. While some of the outdoor giant's business is admittedly cyclical with the hunting seasons, it remains a steady draw throughout the year, local and state tourism officials said."
"Since it opened, dozens of restaurants, stores, and shops have sprung up in and around Dundee to take advantage of all those incoming tourists."
But if Dundee has had one thing missing from its development plan, it has been a steady drawing point for those family members without an appreciation of the Great Outdoors."
"Mr. Burtch said the hotel's $26 million investment will help add to the village's ballooning tax base, as well as provide another reason for people to stay in the village longer and give them more to do. It's all part of the continuing economic boom that was caused almost entirely by in the village longer and give them more to do. It's all part of the continuing economic boom that was caused almost entirely by the 225,000 square foot Cabela's store when it was opened in August, 2000."
"Mr. Burtch said local taxpayers have already witnessed the impact of Dundee's continuing development in their annual tax bills, which have dropped from 22 mills annually 18 years ago to the 10 mills assessed last year. "The village is doing pretty well financially," the village manager said."
From the SeaGate Centre's website, I could not find its number of yearly visitors.
Map of locations of Cabela's stores. 14 are open with eight more opening soon. None are in Ohio. The one in Triadelphia, West Virginia is near Wheeling, so it's close to Ohio, just like the one in Dundee.
The closest Bass Pro Shops Outdoor Worlds to Toledo are in Cincinnati and Auburn Hills. Those are the only Bass Pro Worlds in Ohio and Michigan. Both say they are open 364 days a year. A new arena in Toledo is expected to be active 110-120 days per year.
This 1999 Cincy Enquirer story says the Cincy Bass Pro is 144,000-square-foot, which is close to the size Toledo wants for an anchor in the Marina District.
I don't know the number of yearly visitors to the Cincy Bass Pro. But here's some additional info about Bass Pro stores:
"Developers of the Forest Fair location hope the new store makes a similar splash in Greater Cincinnati. If the new store follows suit, Fairfield and Forest Park are in for a big economic jolt. "(Bass Pro Shops) draws from an unbelievable distance," said Joe Szymaszek, vice president and general manager of Opry Mills in Nashville. "Forty-nine percent of their customers come from beyond 50 miles. Almost 30 percent trave from 150 miles or more," he said."
"Martin McDonald, Bass Pro director of corporate communications, said Forest Fair can expect similar results. "In the parking lot you will have cars from a regional basis. Our stores draw from a multi-state area. The Tri-State area automatically means that you'll get a draw from three states, but you'll also see customers from surrounding states," McDonald said."
Here's a story from a year ago about Buffalo:
"Just days before his annual State of the City address, Buffalo Mayor Anthony Masiello is feeling downright giddy about what's happening in downtown Buffalo. In the few weeks between Thanksgiving and Christmas/New Year's holidays, downtown Buffalo has scored some impressive and hard fought victories."
"It started with Bass Pro Shops announcement that the retailing giant will take over Memorial Auditorium as home for a $123 million outdoor world sportsmans center which includes $66 million in public sector perks. The ripple effects from Bass Pro's announcement are wide."
"First there is the impact of Bass Pro's annual visitors, which officials predict will top 4 million. Then there's the 100-room hotel that will be part of the project and the Great Lakes/Erie Canal museum."
I didn't study the locations of the Cabela's and Bass Pro stores to see if the Dundee-Toledo combo would be the closest those two stores would be to each other in the United States. A Bass Pro in Auburn Hills, a Cabela's in Dundee, is a Bass Pro in Toledo just too close to those other stores?
This region may support it. These old stats from 1997 say: "Ohio ranked eighth in the nation in 1997 for the number of hunting licenses and permits sold, and 11th in the nation for fishing." Michigan is also a big hunting and fishing state.
Would a Toledo Bass Pro draw 4 million visitors per year? Maybe 2-3 million? If all 120 days were sold out at a new 10,000 seat arena, that's 1.2 million people. But you can't figure numbers that way for the arena because some events like shows or conventions have people coming and going all day long to see something on the floor, so they're not seated in the stands. But realisticly, how many visitors would a new arena on the east side attract?
I think it's safe to say that a new arena anywhere in Toledo will not have the reach that a Bass Pro would. Cleveland and Columbus have their own arenas with pro teams and events. I doubt many people from those cities would go to Toledo for something in our arena. But people from those cities would come to Toledo for the Bass Pro.
I believe a Bass Pro on the east side would ignite more ancillary development than a new arena on the east side. I'm pretty sure that when Cabela's was being built, other nearby development was occurring at the same time. And as listed above, more new development around the Dundee Cabela's is still occurring today, more than five years after it opened.
The Ford administration got the Marina District land remediated. It's ready or mostly ready for development. The NBC 24 story said a new Bass Pro could open in 2007. Other development to support Bass Pro would occurr at the same time. A new nearby boat marina is planned to open in 2007 or 2008, right?
Instead of Toledoans pissing and moaning about a sports arena not being built on the east side, they should be hoping like hell that Bass Pro will build in the Marina District. It would have a huge positive impact for the east side, the city, and the county. It will make the east side forget about a new arena. People will be thankful that a new arena didn't go on the east side.
I cannot see how a new arena that's open 120 days per year and maybe bringing in 1-2 million visitors can be as a good as a new Bass Pro that's open 364 days per year and possibly attracting 3-4 million visitors per year. And the Bass Pro would draw in people from a much larger area than a new arena.
A big reason that a Bass Pro may not go into the Marina District is our proximity to the one in Detroit and the Cabela's in Dundee. The Dundee Cabela's opened in 2000. I guess we could complain that Toledo should have gotten the Cabela's or a Bass Pro on the east side before 2000. Toledo snoozes too much. It's losing a lot of money to Levis Commons and Dundee.
I wonder if Bass Pro is watching what's happening with the city's and county's involvement with Westgate? I wonder if Bass Pro reads the negative media coverage about a new arena not going to the east side?
Straight up. I'd like to see someone (a journalist, developer, planner, whatever) produce the detailed stats that shows a new east side arena would be better than a Bass Pro . Show the pros and cons of both on the east side. If Cabela's wasn't in Dundee, then Toledo could probably get a Bass Pro even if one already exists in Auburn Hills.
A Bass Pro in the Marina District, located on the banks of the mighty Maumee and a short boat trip away from western Lake Erie, which is one of the best fishing holes in the county, looks too good to be true. But maybe if some Toledo knuckleheads would look at this some more and realize that it's better than arena, we could get some positive support for an east side Bass Pro. Would the public support help? Well, it couldn't hurt.
posted by jr at 03:03 P.M. EST on Fri Jan 20, 2006 #
From that Oct 2005 story about more development around Cabela's in Dundee:
"... adding another reason this week to draw visitors off the highway."
"But if Dundee has had one thing missing from its development plan, it has been a steady drawing point for those family members without an appreciation of the Great Outdoors."
Advantage Toledo. Navigating the Detroit area's Bass Pro could be intimidating for some from smaller burghs. And Dundee is a lot smaller with less to do than Toledo. The Glass City is just right, Goldilocks.
COSI is for kids. COSI is having financial problems, and they may or will have a levy on the ballot this year. If COSI can hold on for another year or two, it seems a new Bass Pro in the Marina District would help COSI.
A family visits Toledo for a night or two. The outdoor nuts go to Bass Pro while the rest of the family may visit the Art Museum, the zoo, COSI, and whatever else around downtown Toledo and the surrounding area. Public transportation would need to be nice and convenient. When I go somewhere, I want to park on arrival and not have to drive again until it's time to leave. Prefer to get around via taxi, bus, train, or by walking. But Toledo isn't so massive that driving to the zoo or the museum would be out of the question.
Other activities available are the Hens baseball, maybe something at the SeaGate Centre, UT sports, live theater, the opera, the symphony. A family with mixed-interests should be able to find something to do in Toledo as a family seperately and/or together. There's stuff to do during the day and at night. Some activities are seasonal, of course. And since we are close to Cabela's, the outdoor nut may also cruise up there as well while still staying at a hotel in downtown Toledo.
Forget the current sports arena. I suppose someone desperate enough could attend a Storm hockey game in the aroma. And don't bring a new arena into the conversation. A new arena won't open downtown for at least another five or six years. We're talking about what's possible in the next year or two.
Toledo already has bars, restaurants, and entertainment venues available around town for a family visiting. Other development would still occur around the Bass Pro in the Marina District, but we don't have to wait for everything to be built up from a cornfield.
And when the new marina is open, are there plans to have a Jet Express-like shuttle to South Bass Island (Put-In-Bay)? If so, one more thing to do while staying in Toledo. Obviously, I've overlooked many other things a family could do while visiting.
The location of the Cabela's in Dundee isn't geographically pleasing. That area is nowhere near as attractive as along the wide and slow-moving Maumee River with the Toledo skyline on the other side, the high-level bridge, and the impressive new I-280 bridge in sight when it's completed.
That one stat about Bass Pro is impressive, to me anyway:
"Forty-nine percent of their customers come from beyond 50 miles. Almost 30 percent trave from 150 miles or more."
And I think a Toledo Bass Pro would draw a nice crowd from Columbus and Cleveland. A Bass Pro in the Marina District may cause some people to visit Toledo who wouldn't otherwise have a reason to visit Toledo. And once they see the other activities available, they may come back. Just keep that dump of an arena hidden.
Instead of wasting time, money, and energy on Westgate, the city and county should be doing everything it can to encourage Bass Pro to build in Toledo's Marina District.
posted by jr at 04:28 P.M. EST on Fri Jan 20, 2006 #
Nice thinking there jr w.r.t. Bass Pro in the Marina District and public transportation etc.
It won't happen (at least not the transportation), but it is a pretty picture.
Toledo already has bars, restaurants, and entertainment venues available around town for a family visiting.
The smoking ban, while nice for the nonsmoking family, puts a serious damper on the rough tough smoking outdoorsman.
posted by anonymouscoward at 05:41 P.M. EST on Fri Jan 20, 2006 #
Are cigarette smokers THAT addicted that they can't hold off somking during dinner once in a while?
I honestly don't know, that's why I am asking...
posted by Hooda_Thunkit at 12:33 A.M. EST on Sat Jan 21, 2006 #
Let's not turn this topic into a smoking/non-smoking/health/pleasure police conversation. Plenty of time for this in other topics.
posted by jr at 01:21 A.M. EST on Sat Jan 21, 2006 #
Great quote from today's Blade:
Barbara Sheehan, a Washington Township resident who serves on the board, said she was afraid Costco might bolt and stressed the project has been in the works for more than a year. "It's almost at the end, and we're just coming in now? Why are we getting involved?"
Ms. Sheehan said the county is running the risk of appearing unfriendly to business.
"This is the first time we've heard about this,' she said. "And we really want people to come in. We don't want to give them the impression that we are butting in. I wouldn't want a business to say that LCIC screwed this thing up."
AMEN!
posted by lloyd at 02:32 P.M. EST on Sat Jan 21, 2006 #
Syndicate ToledoTalk
