They are thinking about enforcing a 7:00 PM Mall curfew in Toledo? Wonder what will happen to crime rates when they kick all these kids out of the mall and onto the streets. Really, what are kids supposed to do for fun around here? If they are fast enough they'll be able to shower, eat dinner and catch a movie on Friday night before the curfew. I guess when the movie is over at 7:00 they can go roam your neighborhood.
Mall Curfew
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Good ole' ageism.
You'd think they'd open up a few school gyms or community centers for something to do.
Most movies are more boring than school.
Gee, we wouldn't want to require the parents to do their job occasionally would we? If the thugs, idiots, and disrespectful ones didn't ruin it with the many fights, altercations and incidents, then the curfew wouldn't even have been mentioned. It took the few to ruin it for the many. Here's a novel thought, how about a family game night? How late do teens need to be out anyway?
Corky, What about the thousands of kids that are just going out to have a legitament fun night. Why should they be punished?
Tommy, we aren't requiring anything by doing this. Do you really think all these kids families are just gonna say: awe shucks, I guess we'll have family game night every day? No these kids will be on the streets doing who knows what for entertainment.
Customers are going to stop attending movies at Franklin Park if Toledo does not get a handle on the trash that has been ruining the movie going experience. Personally, I won't go to see a movie at Franklin Park if the start time is after 7 p.m. because of the loud, obnoxious and YOUNG hooligans.
However, it's not up to the city to enforce a curfew. Franklin Park and National Amusement (I believe that's who owns Showcase?) should be picking up the tab to place security in each of its' theaters, as well as securing the parking lots. If a business cannot control its' patrons then they'll lose business. Levis Commons and Fallen Timbers are both becoming more lucrative destinations for me.
I dont know if this is the answer, but this is the exact thing that caused the downfall of two WONDERFUL malls, Southwyck and Northtowne.
Can anyone remember Swck and Ntwn in their heyday?? They were wonderful. But neither one of them did what it would have taken to curb the out of hand young people, and both malls simply got ghettified, and everyone stopped going.
The second to last time I went to Southwyck, my hubcaps were stolen. The last time I went, a girl got knifed by another girl right in front of me and my date.
Is a 7pm curfew going to stop that? I dont think so, the knifing was actually in the afternoon!
Unfortunately this city has an overabundance of shit holes with no values or any respect for laws or their fellow citizens.
I think added security officers is the answer, but Im sure the mall will hesitate to do this as it is quite expensive.
Adding the movie theater was a huge mistake. I have been to Franklin Park only a few times since then and only go there if I have no other option (incl. mail order). It is my last resort. Curfews and security will help but it has to be done soon. There are too many options for shopping and movies in and around the city.
So it's legitimate to discriminate or hate on a group because of their age, sex, religion, ummm bowling handicap? That's not bigotry?
It's stated above but why should a few poorly behaved peeps determine policy for the well-behaved ones. Most people are polite and respectful. Why not have a few security guards keep the peace? Why would the mall deny paying customers?
Charge the fighters/criminals with whatever crime is appropriate. Ask the rude peeps to pipe down or they'll be asked to leave (with applause I'm sure).
When I get a little overzealous and speak in tongues a little too loud at church, the pope doesn't ban all Christians from church. They ask me to keep it down and I relay the message back to my maker and peace and order is restored.
As a former tenant at NorthTowne Mall, I can unequivocally state that youth gangs were the least of our problems. In fact, we probably would have appreciated a few dozen gang bangers stomping around. At least there would have been a trickling of foot traffic.
NorthTowne died because retail shifted in different directions, not because of gangs. Michigan shoppers are hitting all the newer centers in Lambertville and Temperance, while Toledoans gravitate toward Lewis/Alexis, Franklin Park, and that stretch by the Alexis Meijer store. I remember when Meijer's opened, the mall traffic at NorthTowne really spiked downward.
In addition, one of the main trends in retail in the 1990s and 2000s is a move away from enclosed malls in favor of building strip centers with big box anchors. The small- to mid-sized regional enclosed mall concept is dead. I would be surprised if Woodville Mall can hang on much longer, and in my last visit there (late summer 2007) it looked like a morgue.
posted by historymike on Jan 12, 2008 at 03:11:05 pm #
I'd like to know what all you people who are in favor of this curfew tell your kids or grandkids to do for fun.
I really believe these kids keep the mall alive. There are nice kids who go to the mall religiously every week. Kids who eat in the food court and see movies and buy clothes. It's good clean fun. At least they are not doing drugs.
Why spoil it because of a few delinquents.
"At least they are not doing drugs."
Maybe they eat in the food court and see movies because they are on drugs? Sounds like the M.O. of me and my stoner friends when we were in high school...
I stopped going to Southwyck because they could not get a handle on the juveniles who frequented there. I do think that it was at least part of the problem that led to that shopping center's demise. Franklin Park Cinemas will encounter the same problems unless they get a handle on this. The city is now going to be enforcing the laws that exist and that is that there is a curfew for minors. If a movie lets out past the curfew, the movie theatre is doing the upstanding thing by not selling a ticket to a kid who shouldn't be out past that time. To me, they are doing their part to curb the problem and not just feeding their bank accounts.
Corky, What about the kids that didn't do anything wrong? You are saying this is good because the curfew law will be enforced.
forget about the curfew law. Once upon a time there wasn't a curfew law and nice boys and girls went to the mall to have an honest to god good time. That is still the case today.
Why are we punishing these nice boys and girls because of a few rotten eggs?
We aren't leaving very many honest things for the kids to do for fun.
DOES IT REALLY MEAN A KID IS A BAD KID IF HE/SHE IS OUT PAST GOVERNMENT CURFEW?
Past curfew = Outlaw. That's how Jesse James got his start. It's in the farmer's almanac.
Kids are our most
valuable assetscariest liabilities:) And they smell like mothball resistant moths.
No, a kid is not bad if they stay out past the city's curfew. They are making some bad choices.
The mall closes at 9:00. The movie theatre should not sell tickets to minors (unless accompanied by an adult) the ends after a city's curfew. I used to work with juveniles at a community mental health center and I will tell you that every darn last one of them who was picked up for a curfew violation would whine ... "BUT the cinema sold me the ticket?"
We aren't leaving many honest things for kids to do for fun????
Stay at someone's house ... order pizza ... watch a dvd. But get home before the curfew if you are under 18.When a kid is 18, they can stay out however long they want.
You worked with juveniles at a community mental health center?
I'm guessing the juveniles were there volunteering their time to help the mentally ill. Gee, they sound like horrible kids. You're right they don't deserve to see a movie that runs until 11 or 12 at night.
Charlatan, in case you don't know the current curfew law is 11 or 12 depending on age. They are trying to make it 7 just for the mall.
Hey, if you read the law you'll see that technically grandparents need written permission from the parents to take the grand-kids out past curfew. So If you want to take your niece, nephew grand-kid to the mall or an evening Mudhens game make sure you have written permission.
Kmorgan - The juveniles I worked with at the community mental health center were clients. They were referred their by their probation officers, truant officers, parents, etc. They were, like a lot of kids, great but made poor choices.
Personally, I don't think that the curfew is that unreasonable. The mall's cinema is a private business and they can decide their hours. I still maintain that it is commendable for them to not sell tickets for a movie that ends past the curfew. They could be pimping these kids for every last dime they have despite what the city ordinance says.
The solution is to shut down inbound Monroe Street tarta busses at 7
posted by nmorbushomg on Jan 15, 2008 at 01:20:14 am #
I've been to Westfield probably 30-35 times. I've witnessed confrontations (loud verbal bullying, pushing, etc), if not all-out fights, probably 5 or 6 of those times.
Sorry, that's a lousy ratio, and these types of incidents I'm talking about aren't even the kind that warrent a police response or media story, of which there have been more than enough.
People want to go to the mall to relax and have fun, not constantly looking over their shoulder or going out of their way to avoid groups of teens because they aren't sure of the safety factor.
Added security may be preferable to a curfew, but, on the other hand, it's probably not good for business if your structure resembles an armed camp.
If they had simply kept theaters away from this mall, I don't think there'd be anywhere near the amount of problems there's been, but someone was very, very stupid.
That is a bad ratio but why do you punish all kids because of a few rotten eggs?
With your logic I suppose that if the people involved in the fights were black we should ban all black people from the mall, right? It's the same thing.
Do you see the discrimination? Not all kids are bad. Actually most kids aren't. Why do we punish them all?
Then people wonder why kids are so quick to grow up and leave Toledo.
nomorebushome - What would stop them from using the inbound 22 that travels along Bancroft from the Mall ?
nomorebushome - What would stop them from using the inboung 22 that travels along Bancroft from the Mall ?
Kmorgan:
Sorry I just don't buy your slant to this. I'm sure your kids are good kids. They've got the rest of their lives to stay out past 11:00. They've also got other theaters to go to who will be more than willing to take their money even though they will be let out past the curfew. They could go there.
There are many ways to look at this ordinance. You see it as a way of punishing good kids. That is one way. Another way is to look at it as a way to protect good kids.
I'm a big advocate for kids. However, if I'd have to choose a cause that would benefit furthering the rights of kids it wouldn't be that they'd get to stay up later.
KMorgan, as I said, added security may be preferable to a curfew, but what would probably happen then is security would act to 'break up' and 'move along' groups of kids before trouble got started, and people would have problems with that as well.
Related Toledo Talk threads :
- December 10, 2006 - Pair arrested after brawl at the mall
- January 13, 2007 - Yet again - Police arrest at least 3 after Franklin Park fight
Corky, What are you talking about letting kids stay up later? The current curfew law says kids have to be in by 11 - 12 PM.
The curfew law I'm opposed to says kids cannot be at the mall past 7:00PM.
Do you think a 17 year old can handle being at the mall past 7:00 PM? There are 17 year olds in the armed forces. So I guess it's ok for them to die for there country but a crime to shop at Westfield shopping center after 7 PM!?
My point again is that this is discrimination. You don't punish all kids for the actions of a few. Age discrimination is illegal in the work place, why should we allow it outside of workplace?
imho, curfews are a way to create laws in order to create law breakers. Instead of just dealing with the illegal behavior from some kids, they make stupid laws like curfews, treating all citizens as if they are 'about' to break the law so they must no longer be allowed in public...
The problem isn't all kids under certain ages, it's the lack of police force (and parental control) to deal with the small number of kids who are doing something illegal - or something they shouldn't.
posted by MaggieThurber on Jan 16, 2008 at 07:09:03 pm #
maggie -
In general, I disagree with you about curfews being an example of a law created to create law breakers. There are those who would argue the same thing about speed limits. I'm not saying that we need a law to govern every single matter of citizen conduct but I do think that curfews are a good thing.
The problems at Westfield did not involve a small number of kids. If I remember correctly, each of the two incidents involved dozens and dozens of kids.
kmorgan: you are right. 7 pm is an extreme response. Other than that, I support the current curfew laws and I also support the right of the mall's cinema managers to not sell movie tickets to minors when the show ends after the the city's
curfew.Presumably, your kids go to Westfield regularly? Don't you feel concerned for the safety of your kids there?
"Age discrimination is illegal in the work place, why should we allow it outside of workplace?"
Unfortunatly, you have to be OVER a certain age for the law to consider it discrimination. There is no law that states people under a certain age cannot be discrimitated against. (per the ohio civil right commission)
Corky, that's what I've been trying to say. 7 PM is extreme.
The mall is a main source of entertainment for a lot of kids. I'm a little worried about what these kids might do for fun when we take the mall away.
Maybe since going to the movies on friday night is out of the question they will decide to try going to a classmates party (out of sheer boredom) where drugs and alcohol are available. Or maybe they'll decide to go toilet papering houses, or egging or any of those other things kids do when they get bored.
Call me crazy but a 7PM curfew on every kid in the entire world because a handfull of kids got out of hand seems a little extreme. There are kids who live overseas that can't visit the mall if they come to Toledo. What a welcoming city.
I've got to say that I disagree with you Kmorgan. I'm glad that they are FINALLY enforcing the curfew. FINALLY, the movie theatre is not going to be selling minors tickets to movies that get out too late. FINALLY, there is going to be something done.
posted by corky on Jan 11, 2008 at 07:14:08 pm #