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There's nothing funny about prison

The LA Times is stealing my thesis. Or they wrote a compelling story.

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-op-klein30mar30,0,2240882.story

There's nothing funny about prison rape

Smirking at sexual attacks on inmates makes us all less safe.
By Ezra Klein
March 30, 2008
'From the studio that brought you 'Brokeback Mountain,' " intones the preview for the light comedy "Let's Go To Prison," "comes a penetrating look at the American penal system." In case that was too subtle for you, the DVD box features a dropped bar of soap, just waiting for some poor inmate to bend over to pick it up -- and suffer a hilarious sexual assault in the process.

Or maybe you're not feeling up for a movie. It's more of a board-game afternoon. How about picking up "Don't Drop the Soap," a board game created by the son of Gov. Kathleen Sebelius of Kansas. The game "is simply intended for entertainment," said Nicole Corcoran, the governor's spokeswoman. What, after all, could be more entertaining then trying to "avoid being cornered by the Aryans in the shower room" (one of the goals of the game, according to its promotional material)?

Here in Washington, however, the weather has been beautiful lately, so if you were bored last week, you might have wanted to do something out of the house. One option would have been going down to the Department of Justice, where, on the third floor, officials were holding hearings on prison rape, interrogating administrators from some of the worst prisons in the nation about the abuses that go on within their walls.

These hearings are held annually. This year's transcripts aren't online yet, but in 2006 you could have heard a man named Clinton explain, "I had no choice but to enter into a relationship with another inmate in my dorm in order to keep the rest of them off of me. In exchange for his protection from other inmates, I had to be with him sexually any time he demanded it. It was so humiliating, and I often cried silently at night in my bed ... but dealing with one is better than having 10 or more men demanding sex from you at any given time."

Clinton's testimony wasn't very funny, and it wasn't for entertainment. Nor was the 2001 report by Human Rights Watch, "No Escape," which included a letter from an inmate confessing that "I have no more feelings physically. I have been raped by up to five black men and two white men at a time. I've had knifes at my head and throat. I had fought and been beat so hard that I didn't ever think I'd see straight again."

Prison rape occupies a fairly odd space in our culture. It is, all at once, a cherished source of humor, a tacitly accepted form of punishment and a broadly understood human rights abuse. We pass legislation called the Prison Rape Elimination Act at the same time that we produce films meant to explore the funny side of inmate sexual brutality.

Occasionally, we even admit that prison rape is a quietly honored part of the punishment structure for criminals. When Enron's Ken Lay was sentenced to jail, for instance, Bill Lockyer, then the attorney general of California, spoke dreamily of his desire "to personally escort Lay to an 8-by-10 cell that he could share with a tattooed dude who says, 'Hi, my name is Spike, honey.' "

The culture is rife with similar comments. Although it would be unthinkable for the government today to institute corporal punishment in prisons, there is little or no outrage when the government interns prisoners in institutions where their fellow inmates will brutally violate them. We won't touch you, but we can't be held accountable for the behavior of Spike, now can we?

As our jokes and cultural products show, we can claim no ignorance. We know of the abuses, and we know of the rapes. Research by the University of South Dakota's Cindy Struckman-Johnson found that 20% of prisoners reported being coerced or pressured into sex, and 10% said they were violently raped. In a 2007 survey by the U.S. Department of Justice, more than 60,000 inmates claimed to have been sexually victimized by other inmates during the previous 12 months. Given the stigma around admitting such harms, the true numbers are probably substantially higher.

But by and large, we seem to find more humor than outrage in these crimes. In part, this simply reflects the nature of our criminal justice system, which has become decreasingly rehabilitative and increasingly retributive.

In the 1970s, as economist Glenn Loury has written, "the corrections system was commonly seen as a way to prepare offenders to rejoin society. Since then, the focus has shifted from rehabilitation to punishment and stayed there."

On the campaign trail, Mike Huckabee put it even more pithily. "We lock up a lot of people that we're mad at," he liked to say. "Not the ones we're really afraid of." Criminals aren't sent to prison so they can learn to live outside of prison; they're sent to prison to get what they deserve. And that paves the way for the acceptance of all manners of brutal abuses. It's not that we condone prison rape per se, but it doesn't exactly concern us, and occasionally, as in the comments made by Lockyer, we take a perverse satisfaction in its existence.

Morally, our tacit acceptance of violence within prisons is grotesque. But it's also counterproductive. Research by economists Jesse Shapiro and Keith Chen suggests that violent prisons make prisoners more violent after they leave. When your choice is between the trauma of hardening yourself so no one will touch you or the trauma of prostituting yourself so you're protected from attack, either path leads away from rehabilitation and psychological adjustment.

And we, as a society, endure the consequences -- both because it leads ex-cons to commit more crime on the streets and because more of them end up back to jail. A recent report released by the Pew Center on the States revealed that more than one in 100 Americans is now behind bars. California alone spends $8.8 billion a year on its imprisoned population -- a 216% increase over what it paid 20 years ago, even after adjusting for inflation.

That's money, of course, that can't be spent on schools, on job training, on wage supports and drug treatment. Money, in other words, that can't be spent on all the priorities that keep people out of prison. Money that's spent instead on housing prisoners in a violent, brutal and counterproductive atmosphere. And there's nothing funny about that.

Ezra Klein is an associate editor at the American Prospect. His blog is at EzraKlein.com.

created by charlatan on Mar 31, 2008 at 09:47:43 pm     Comments: 14

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Comments ... #

And don't forget the bad food served to inmates. Jul 25, 2007 Toledo Journal story titled Jail food monotonous, unhealthy, inmate says.

Mr. Coker said inmates have become ill from eating the cabbage. He said he is certain that the cabbage is being alternately refrigerated and re-cooked. He said inmates have experienced vomiting and diarrhea. He said when they complain about feeling sick from the food, they’re offered aspirin or Tums. He said all of the meals invariably are served cold. “It’s uncivilized in here,” Mr. Coker said. “In a minute this place is going to snap.”

And it was a dark day when prisons banned smoking.

It's tough being jailed. That's why it's probably a good idea to follow those suggestions about not committing a crime.

posted by jr on Apr 01, 2008 at 06:21:36 am     #



If you cant do the time, dont do the crime.

Tony Baretta.

posted by billy on Apr 01, 2008 at 12:45:22 pm     #



You guys really do love your nanny state. I knew all that previous criticism was an act.

I know you've never broken any of the following laws only out of fear of and piety to the state:

Sex crimes (or Crimes against chastity) and crimes related to reproduction

* Adultery and, in general, sex outside marriage where all those involved, including spouses, give consent - Adultery without the spouse's consent is arguably not victimless, as it violates the spouse's marriage contract rights, but it is also arguable that the non-consenting spouse is the victim of a civil wrong, instead of a criminal wrong.
* Bigamy and other non-traditional marital and family practices
* Child pornography without child actors, such as lolicon
* Consensual sex between a minor and an adult (see age of consent)
* Homosexuality, or other sexual activities not strictly related with biological reproduction
* Human reproduction which lies outside of ordinary methods: chemical or genetic interventions; birth control, which is illegal in many places; human cloning and other reproductive technologies.
* Incest which cannot result in pregnancy.
* Pornography (viewing, production, trade, possession, consumption) and other obscenity when produced involving consenting participants, and distributed to consenting purchasers
* Pornography that does not feature consenting adults but the viewing does not encourage the producer to make more
* Prostitution, sex work, and related acts
* Sadomasochism and BDSM-related, consensual, erotic activities
* Necrophelia

[edit] Religion

* Apostasy
* Blasphemy
* Practice of religion, cult or superstition other than those locally sanctioned
* Religious practices involving banned substances (such as hallucinogens) or banned social arrangements (such as polygamy)

[edit] Financial

* Ticket scalping
* Illegal taxicab operation

[edit] Political

In general, most political crimes are victimless, as they, by definition, are against the politic body.

* Electoral fraud, where such fraud does not involve the votes of specific persons
* Flag desecration or expressing negative opinion of prominent national figure (e.g. Turkey, North Korea)
* High crimes and misdemeanors, and other abuses of political power that do not involve specific persons
* Public obscenity, though offense to others
* Treason

[edit] Self-preservation and public safety

* BASE jumping under certain conditions
* Black market trade, or trade in unapproved products or unlicensed services to willing and fully-informed buyers
* Consented cannibalism
* Driving a car without state-mandated auto insurance, though financial damage to others is possible
* Operating an automobile without a driver's license.
* Having an open container of an alcoholic beverage in a moving vehicle
* Jaywalking
* Laws requiring the use of safety devices such as seat belts and motorcycle helmets - Acquiring the privilege to operate a motor vehicle on public roadways arguably includes consent to obey the rules of the road, but such violations are debatably in breach of contract, and not victimless. Violating such laws can lead to the injury of the violator only, who has consented to the possibility of such injury by the act of violation, and thus, such violations do not endanger others; however, at high speeds, the human body can become a dangerous projectile and a hazard to others.
* Many forms of gambling
* Possession and use of fireworks and firecrackers
* Possession of devices that may be used in committing crimes, such as weapons, unauthorized cable TV decoders, or cryptographic products (the likelihood that the device will be used to harm others is relevant in determining whether possession constitutes a significant threat to the rights of others[citation needed]; an extreme example is possession of a nuclear weapon by a civilian)
* Sedition
* Subverting the national culture (e.g. by using certain foreign or minority languages)
* Suicide, attempted suicide, euthanasia and automutilation
* Trespassing in the context of urban exploration
* Untreated insanity
* Use of illegal drugs, including alcohol in some jurisdictions

[edit] Copyright, trade marks and trade

* Bypassing region encoding used for price differentiation on DVDs and other media
* Copying goods that will not legally be sold in one's market within a human lifetime
* Grey market transactions that do not involve copyright/trademark infringement (e.g. importing a video game console or decrypting a foreign satellite signal without permission)
* Phreaking
* Reality hacking

[edit] Crimes in potentia

* conspiracy to commit crimes at some point in the future

posted by charlatan on Apr 01, 2008 at 08:54:57 pm     #



posted by jr on Apr 01, 2008 at 09:33:40 pm     #



nope, never done any of those. Difficult as it may be for someone like you to believe, it is possible to live within the law.

Not that most of the above crimes will get you jail time anyway - but they do make a nice long copy/paste, so good on you.

posted by billy on Apr 02, 2008 at 06:28:04 am     #



My God, Billy - how self-righteous you are. While people may commit crimes, not all are violent crimes - some are white collar crimes, some are falsely imprisoned (amazing how often that happens), some petty robberies, etc. Not all are murderers, rapists & child molesters. Your attitude implies ("don't do the crime if you can't do the time" - sounds good on a tv show, but this is reality) - that regardless of what the crime was, anybody who's in prison deserves being raped, beated, abused, and should accept that abuse without complaint. The only criminals I could even not shed a tear for if those abuses happened to, would be child molesters, rapists & murderers. And even then - they have been sentenced & are paying for their crime. Any abuse given to them after they have been sentenced, is additional penelties and are just wrong. You strike me as young billy - and I will only suggest that you withhold your smugness & self-righteousness until you get a bit older, and have had a chance to see how your children, grandchildren, siblings, cousins, etc. have turned out. Because everybody in prison, is somebody's relative - often their child or grandchild. And more often than not it seems, what people say when somebody has committed a crime, is "He was the last person I'd have expected to do that - he was so nice". (My son was one of these - the kindest, most moral person, honor's student, star wrestler in high school - and he was young & in debt & committed a couple of robberies & did 10 years in maximum security prison. His teachers were writing the judge, pleading his case - his crime did not define who he IS. And he's paid for his crime, but will pay for it the rest of his life with the stigma of having a felony. Now, out of prison about 6 years, he is the most awe inspiring person I know, successful, ethical to a fault, and always took responsibiltiy. He is also small, and I assume, was an easy target. This world would be a better place if more people were like my son - had his ethics. But yes, he screwed up when he was under 20 yrs old.) And, many times, that is true - oftentimes, it is an early offense of a young person who showed poor judgement. Yes, they should be punished for the crime they committed. But they should not have to endure atrocities like prison rape & beatings in addition to the punishment they were sentenced to. Our country has more people in prison than any other industrialized country in the world - prisons are huge money makers. And many are in prison for pot possession or trafficking, minor drug charges, statuatory rape on guys who are 18 & the girl was 16 & her parents sued, involuntary manslaughter from a first time dui that killed somebody (think of the times when you were very young & drove home after a few beers). You'd be amazed at how many are falsely imprisoned - put there by a lie, a phony charge of rape (many of these inmates have been released when it was proven the charge was a lie. Some inmates have served 20 years in prison - falsely accused & released when it could finally be proven they did not commit the crime.) Some are sentenced to a couple of years only, because the crime wasn't horrific or it was a first offense. But billy thinks it's 'ok' to destroy this person's life - the rest of his natural life, by having to endure prison rape & beatings - to say nothing of the abuse the correctional officers inflict upon them. (This is something I DO know something about.). Most correctional officers are not police, and have no criminal justice training to speak of - no college degree required. When a new prison opens & is hiring, the line to apply for the job is somewhat like Walmart's. They don't make great money, and may walk around with macho bravado on power trips. Our Lucas County Jail has a few "officers" who have reputations for their 'chokeholds'. Some have died. It is far worse in prisons where the abuse can be blamed on other inmates. Most of the drug smuggling that occurs in prisons is done by the correctional officers themselves. What I am saying billy - is to be very careful about spewing how much abuse anybody deserves. You shoot your mouth off like that often enough & you may find yourself looking & feeling like a shit when your grandson ends up in prison for a minor crime & gets gang banged & beated to a pulp. You think your grandson will want YOU to visit him? Hell no. He will know you've already judged him as deserving of the worst abuse anybody can dish out. I tend to not wish bad things on people, but in this case, maybe it'd be a good thing if one of your kids or grandkids ended up in the prison system - only a couple of years. You've made comments like this in the past & maybe it'd be the only way for you to SEE there is more to it than Baretta one liners.

posted by starling02 on Apr 03, 2008 at 05:13:27 pm     #



Star, I'll read this diatribe when I get some time. Could you please put some breaks in your postings to separate paragraphs?

posted by billy on Apr 04, 2008 at 07:52:48 am     #



Leaning somewhat left.

posted by GraphicsGuy on Apr 04, 2008 at 08:23:34 am     #



OK Star, here goes -

First off, I cant imagine what my mom would go thru if I ended up in jail so I wont pretend that I can empathasize with you.

I know about a half dozen people that have been in jail for an extended period of time, and like you describe your son, about 4 out of six have made something of their lives. The common denominator is - and they'll all admit it, is they all were guilty. And none of them asks me to be sorry for them.

I cannot speak of the 'many' people you talk about that have been sentenced to prison who were innocent. I'll leave it to you to update me from YOUR personal experiences with them. If you dont have any, then lets table that part of the conversation.

You do contradict yourself a bit tho. You talk about your son's time in jail - you say his life is ruined, but then you say "he is the most awe inspiring person I know, successful, ethical to a fault, and always took responsibiltiy." Doesnt sound ruined to me.

As far as always taking responisibility that's also not quite true. He took responsibility for his crimes AFTER he got caught, right??

As for the felony record that'll be with him all his life? Sorry, but again, actions have consequences.

You speak about HIM being ruined for life, what about his VICTIMS? From what I read from you, this wasnt just some penny ante crime like possession of a bag of grass, nor was it a one time incident. There were victims. I dont know the circumstances, but have you ever been robbed? I have. You do realize that the impact of being robbed involves more than just the loss of material things, correct? Different people handle different things in different ways (just like people who have to go to jail) Some people just cuss the robber and get on with things, but some never get over the fear that some young kid who's short on money can instill in them. No matter how it's handled, it was never the choice of the victim to be robbed.

Your son made some bad choices and had to pay for them - I applaud him for making someone of himself after he paid his due, but the choices were his to begin with. Maybe his influence can help others not to do things the way he did, but dont be blaming me for not sending my heart out to him. Remember, I was a victim of being robbed and if they'd have caught the one who got me, I sure as hell wouldnt give a damn if it went rough on him in the pen.

posted by billy on Apr 04, 2008 at 10:59:19 am     #



My comment is a little off of the way the string of conversation is going but here it is-our judicial system in general needs to be revamped/restructured/reorganized.

Our culture permits far too many criminals the opportunity to not do an appropriate amount of time in prison for heinous criminal acts. Also, there are many people doing time that should not be in prison (but are in prison due to their race,etc.)

An example of not doing enough time would be child sex offenders-they are allowed to get out of jail and live near schools-??????? Do you know there are way too many of these sex offenders walking amongst us that were previously jailed-if we had more serious punishments in place (consequences) there would probably be a lot less crime.

posted by poeticallyspeaking on Apr 04, 2008 at 08:35:01 pm     #



Billy - first, I never implied that either I or inmates expected, or deserve, sympathy. What I said (and perhaps did so poorly) - was that no inmate should have to tolerate gang rape or beatings so bad they can leave you brain damaged, toothless or dead - by either other inmates or correctional officers. The fact that they are in prison says that they are being punished for their crime.

I can't imagine how you lived this long without reading or hearing of all the cases of false imprisonment. It happens a lot - more so probably before DNA testing - but many of those inmates have been proven innocent via DNA testing or recanted accusations. In fact, I just watched "Dateline" tonight about a man in Montana who was sentenced to life in prison, no parole, furloughs, early release, or appeals allowed - he's served 24 years in prison for a murder he did not commit. "Dateline" covered this case in much detail - how after 24 years, new fighters for his freedom had uncovered over 30 witnesses to show not only a 'doubt' that he'd done the crime, but they proved a reasonable belief of who probably committed the crime. There was no evidence, no DNA, nothing - that connected this man to this murder. After a long 10 years of digging out this information, the parole board still refused to release him - not because he was guilty, but to cover the asses of those who convicted him in the first place. So there he sits for the rest of his life. It is now waiting & hoping to be heard by the Montana Supreme Court - which is doubtful it ever will be. Not too many years ago, the Blade had an article on a man who'd served 17 years, and was proven to be innocent & finally released. My point is, it happens. The lawyers who fought for the rights of that man in Montana said they personally knew of at least 200 inmates who were falsely convicted. All it takes is to be in the wrong place at the wrong time - or have somebody accuse you, or have a crappy lawyer. I'll consider this part of the conversation "tabled" until you do your own homework on the subject.

My son - I did not say my son's life was ruined. I said, these violent beatings & rapes can ruin an inmate for life. Yes, those 10 years were a huge chunk out of my son's life - but he did the time & moved on. He was not raped (as far as I know). But he was attacked & beaten severely by his cell mate - so badly, they had to move him to a more secure location. I do know that my son lived in fear every day of his life for 10 years. Every day for 10 years, he did fear potential rape - the threat was thrown in his face often. Yes, I am well aware of the fear my son caused when he committed the robberies (3 small ones) - nobody was hurt, but of course they feared they would be. My son is also aware of that fact. My point was simply that sometimes, especially when people are young, they are thinking in a panic mode & aren't thinking straight. I won't go into the details about my son's case - I will just say, that if he hadn't been so ignorant & naive about the worst that can happen if you bounce a few checks & get behind in child suppport - he never would have committed those robberies. But he assumed he was going to prison for it anyway. Young & ignorant.

My son took responsiblity before he got caught - the reality had hit him hard of what he'd done, and he'd changed his mind about pursuing the robbery when the cops jumped him (he had turned around & was walkiing back to his car - the cops had been watching him & the police record backs this fact up). What the police record does not show, was the time frame they had to take him to the hospital for xrays because they beat & kicked the shit out of him (I got a copy of the police record & this hospital visit is missing, as is that time frame - but I did get bills from the hospital for xrays on that day). My son is small and surrendered immediately (he was scared shitless) - there was no reason these cops had to beat him up. But they did - my guess is because they were pissed that it took them that long to figure out who did it. I don't have any problem with cops using appropriate force if necessary - but I do have problems with police brutality when it's not necessary. At any rate - my son confessed & took responsiblity from day One, and did not rat out two friends who 'helped' - ever. He did not see the point in them going down as well. To this day, even I do not know their names - he's never told me. But I know for a fact they were part of it, from my son's co-felon friend (who drove the car) who did 5 years for driving the car. We are talking 4 young guys, barely 20 years old - who 'got' about $300. total. I found a notebook where my son had listed all his bills & debts & what he needed to 'fix' them all - and when he could 'fix' them, he'd hoped to be able to walk away & never look back at what he'd done. It was an act of desperation on his part. That does not excuse what he did - we have never excused what he's done to 'approve' or 'condone' the acts. But when the prosecutor asked for 5 years & the judge agreed & then made him do 10 years (when I could read where bank robbers, rapists, murders with lots of priors were getting off in 6 -8 years (I sent clippings to the judge) - yes, it pissed me off. My son did the time, and he did it without self pity. But being sentenced for a crime should not condone prison rape or abuse in people's minds. Anybody who can condone that in their brains by saying 'well he did the crime, so he can do the time' & snicker about prison rape & assume he has it coming to him - is no better than a thug himself.

As for his victims - sure they were scared at the time. But he was pretty much known as the polite robber, non threatening, and none of them had problems with him being released at the pre-stated 5 years (but the judge made him do 10, after he'd put in the 5 years in writing because my son had no priors, didn't do drugs, drink, etc.) They all had an opportunity to say 'no, don't let him out' (via his attorney). In fact, they joked about it after the fact. My parents were robbed when they owned a bar years ago - and my mom was terrified. So yes, I understand the fear. I don't discount the fear at all. Neither does my son. But I never asked you to give your 'heart' to him. What I asked, was why you thought it was 'ok' for a person incarcerated to be abused & raped - often daily & for years - as a 'given' because he got convicted of a crime? The sentence he got was the punishment & they feel every second of every day - they pay for their crimes by doing the time. I have nothing more to say to you about this because until you've had somebody close to you go through the fear of even going to sleep at night, or a child who got beat near to death - and as long as you can smugly joke about how they should expect that abuse - you won't ever understand or 'get it'. A thug isn't always the one behind bars.

poeticallyspeaking - you are so right. I learned very fast that there isn't much equity in our justice system. Often it's who can afford the best lawyer, who has the best connections, or is the right color. What I learned, was that a man could have 2 prior convictions for bank robbery or rape, and have done prison time & got released to do it again - and be released again after serving 6 - 8 years. I mailed the judge several of these newspaper clippings. I was also startled at how many young 18 -20 yr old guys are in prison on rape charges, based on an angry 15 -17 yr old ex girlfriends words. Sometimes, they do come forward & admit they lied - but sometimes it may take them years to do that.

posted by starling02 on Apr 04, 2008 at 11:33:14 pm     #



Star, thanks for your input, and thanks also for the paragraph breaks!

I understand and appreciate your side of things and I wish nothing but the best for you and your family.

I guess to put this conversation back on the track of this post - there will always be what I'll call "gallows humor". We may disagree on my point, but that doesnt change it. People will always make fun of things that are serious problems. You'll always hear whatever the current generation's Polack jokes are, you'll always hear trailer/redneck humor, you'll always hear humor about terrorists, prisoners, sexual deviant humor and so on.

Such humor may take away from the seriousness of the issue if people dont take it with a grain of salt. Im sure when you hear prison humor you get a bit rankled, but I refuse to believe you've never laughed at any of the other topics Ive mentioned above, in fact, you one tongue in cheek accused me of being inbred, when interfamily rape is a big problem in some areas of the world.

I also understand that humor has the potential of taking away from the seriousness of an issue, but humor does not cause the problem, nor will it cure the problem. and when I said 'dont do the crime if you cant do the time?? I still believe that's the best way to go.

posted by billy on Apr 05, 2008 at 07:42:50 am     #



billy, I have no problems with gallows humor - about prison, in -breeding, ethnic jokes, etc. I agree that sometimes it lightens the 'load' & if you don't laugh, you may cry. It wasn't the jokes I had an issue with. It was the statement & assumption that anybody who's committed a crime & is in prison, should expect abuse & rape & deserves it because they broke the law - that it just goes hand-in-hand with being sentenced to prison. Quite honestly - I wouldn't cry for the child abuser or molester - or even murderers if they were subjected to this treatment. However, I've learned that things are not always what they seem, that the media is often skewed, that sometimes people are falsely imprisoned - and some of those 'murders' were done in self-defense (prisons are full of women who fought back, the husband died & there she sits). Many were unintentional - accidental, but there they sit. Some are there just because 'they' wanted the crime solved; some are there due to plea bargains - agreed to lesser crimes to avoid the uncertainty of a jury trial (which can backfire) - even by some who never committed the crime but can't prove it. I wonder how many of us could come up with an alibi of our whereabouts on a specific day a year ago. My point is, it happens more than people realize. I learned a lot from an attorney in Columbus, Ohio who specializes in this. And you'd be amazed at how 'open' your eyes become to blurbs in the news when you have a loved one incarcerated to an unrealistic period of time (based upon the crime, no priors, case law, sterling reputation) - you start to realize that many career felons are serving far less time, for worse & more crimes.

But back to the topic - Yes, we made a few jokes; not often - but we did or we'd have cried. Kind of like death & funeral jokes - it's a normal thing to do, it lightens the mood. And a good laugh can go a long way to keeping spirits up. That said, I honesty believe that this country has gotten far too politically correct where people get too easily offended at this type of humor. 50 - 100 years ago (and more), this type of humor was far more raunchy, insulting, in your face - and most people never took offense, in fact, they'd make jokes about their own ethnic race, beliefs, appearance, etc. I have some antique humor books that, by today's standards - are shocking. My point is that nobody should feel the need to tip-toe around anybody if a comment is made in a humorous, non-threatening way. Not even me. No offense taken by me at all to the jokes. Just that one comment about how it should be expected & deserved............

posted by starling02 on Apr 05, 2008 at 02:48:10 pm     #



poeticallyspeaking, care to site some stats before we take your premises as true?

posted by charlatan on Apr 06, 2008 at 01:20:06 am     #