Toledo Talk

TPS wants more for the children...

...oh, and incidentally, the teachers want a raise.

http://www.13abc.com/story/25847761/tps-will-seek-another-levy-vote

Balls. Serious, big brass balls.

created by oldhometown on Jun 23, 2014 at 04:00:13 pm     Education     Comments: 67

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Comments ... #

I know I'll be voting no.

And I'm sure the levy will pass. Something I don't understand is how these levy's pass as high as the unemployment is here and how many people are delinquent in their property taxes. If people can't afford to keep their property taxes current, why are they voting yes on tax levys?

posted by jamesteroh on Jun 23, 2014 at 09:29:31 pm     #   4 people liked this

It's the people who don't own property and have never paid a property tax in their life who are voting yes. Ignorance is bliss among the Toledo voters.

posted by dell_diva on Jun 23, 2014 at 10:18:31 pm     #   6 people liked this

that's a pretty severe broad generalization

posted by upso on Jun 23, 2014 at 10:20:33 pm     #   7 people liked this

Not to re-direct the thread but hell's bell's whose voting? The numbers are abysmal. Forward motion appears on the way for a solution to that, so maybe this might become a galvanizing issue for greater participation.

posted by Mariner on Jun 24, 2014 at 06:26:45 am     #  

Add 1 to the "against the levy" tally.

posted by 6th_Floor on Jun 24, 2014 at 06:51:10 am     #   7 people liked this

http://www.toledoblade.com/Editorials/2014/06/24/Start-the-discussion-copyA-TPS-tax-hike-will-be-a-tough-sell-but-the-district-deserves-the-chance-to-make-its-best-case-to-open-minded-voters.html

Let's all start asking questions. We can post them here - at least to start. I believe when we hear the answers TPS likely will make a good case for levy defeat. I'll start by posting four questions I have asked of the local daily - heaven knows they should be asking copious questions as the fifth estate - on twitter (@sgflagg) and TPS.

We, of course, need to demand they provide the public with cogent answers!

@toledonews How does an estimated $9M in year 1 & $5M ongoing spent busing TPS students improve #StudentAchievement?

@toledonews Will a salary increase for all teachers improve TPS teacher quality and impact #StudentAchievement? #TPSLevy

@toledonews Should we increase the salary of all TPS principals just to retain the best that can impact #StudentAchievement? #TPSLevy

@toledonews Can TPS fund busing and salary increases by implementing all performance audit recommendations instead of a new #TPSLevy?

And I have many, many more that will be placed in the public domain over the course of this levy campaign should the TPS Board decide to place it on the ballot. I fully expect it and will comment later after the Board acts.

posted by sflagg on Jun 24, 2014 at 08:37:07 am     #   2 people liked this

Here's my question: are they going to illegally post pro-levy campaign signs on school property (and TARTA property) like they did the last time?

posted by MsArcher on Jun 24, 2014 at 08:42:59 am     #   2 people liked this

Yes, and city property too.

posted by justread on Jun 24, 2014 at 08:46:32 am     #  

One thing that use to really piss me off was when Francine Lawrence was in charge of the TPS school teachers union and would push for people to vote for the levy's. She didn't even live in the city of Toledo and if levy's passed wouldn't have effected her taxes one bit. Her and her husband had no problems teaching at TPS and drawing a paycheck but they weren't willing to live in the TPS district and send their kids there.

I didn't realize it was illegal to post pro levy signs on school property. I'm sure they will do it again this year and I've seen pro levy signs on other school district grounds. There was a levy a while back and there were pro levy's signs in the yard of the Section 8 housing project where you get off I-75 at to go downtown on Washington (I think it's port Lawrence). They are exempt from paying property taxes and the taxpayers pay all or part of the tenants rent, so why are they pushing for higher taxes they are exempt from paying?

I know this would never be legal, but I'm sure if the only people who could vote on Tax increase levy's were property owners who are current on their taxes, TPS would never see another levy pass unless they made drastic improvements.

posted by jamesteroh on Jun 24, 2014 at 08:59:04 am     #   9 people liked this

jamesteroh posted at 08:59:04 AM on Jun 24, 2014:

One thing that use to really piss me off was when Francine Lawrence was in charge of the TPS school teachers union and would push for people to vote for the levy's. She didn't even live in the city of Toledo and if levy's passed wouldn't have effected her taxes one bit. Her and her husband had no problems teaching at TPS and drawing a paycheck but they weren't willing to live in the TPS district and send their kids there.

I didn't realize it was illegal to post pro levy signs on school property. I'm sure they will do it again this year and I've seen pro levy signs on other school district grounds. There was a levy a while back and there were pro levy's signs in the yard of the Section 8 housing project where you get off I-75 at to go downtown on Washington (I think it's port Lawrence). They are exempt from paying property taxes and the taxpayers pay all or part of the tenants rent, so why are they pushing for higher taxes they are exempt from paying?

I know this would never be legal, but I'm sure if the only people who could vote on Tax increase levy's were property owners who are current on their taxes, TPS would never see another levy pass unless they made drastic improvements.

Careful now, let's not make any "broad sweeping generalizations".

posted by dell_diva on Jun 24, 2014 at 09:14:11 am     #   1 person liked this

"Not to re-direct the thread but hell's bell's whose voting? The numbers are abysmal."

It's arguable that Toledo's most important election is the year when the mayor and the six at-large city councilpeople are chosen, which occurred last November.

For Toledo's November 2013 mayoral election, 49,880 votes were cast. (I'm going to assume one vote per voter.)

According to demographics, Toledo has around 215,000 voting-age residents.

So approximately 23 percent of Toledoans voted for mayor last November.

After the November 2013 election, the Blade reported :

Turnout was 25.4 percent of registered voters in the city.

For the November 2014 election, I think the Ohio governor's race is on the ballot, and, of course, mid-term crap at the federal level.

It's possible that, for some reason, more people are interested in voting for candidates who work outside Toledo, so voter turnout could be higher this fall.

Lucas County Board of Elections past results that show the county-wide voter turnout:

  • November 2013 - pdf file - 9 pages of results
    • Registered Voters : 311647
    • Cards Cast : 81625
    • Voter Turnout : 26.19%
  • November 2010 (mid-term) - pdf file - 4 pages of results
    • Registered Voters : 317046
    • Cards Cast : 147029
    • Voter Turnout : 46.37%
  • November 2009 - Toledo mayor and six Toledo city council at-large seats - pdf file - 8 pages of results
    • Registered Voters : 314632
    • Cards Cast : 117982
    • Voter Turnout : 37.50%

That's a significant voter turnout decline for the 2009 election compared to 2013.

The higher turnout for 2010 was probably due to more high-profile choices, and more "stuff" available to all voters.

I'll wild-guess and say voter turnout within Toledo for this November will be 35 to 40 percent.

posted by jr on Jun 24, 2014 at 09:14:33 am     #  

If TPS needs more money, let them tighten their belts.
Eliminate the "bs fluff" positions, like assistants to the assistants and executive secretaries.
They probably have as many people who DON'T actually teach as they have those that DO.

posted by JeepMaker on Jun 24, 2014 at 09:19:18 am     #   3 people liked this

Pro-levy signs can be posted on TPS property if the Board allows signs to be posted. However, they also have to allow opposition to post signs as well. We posted anti-levy signs many times during levies in the past decade. Even had to get a legal opinion and threaten to sue TPS but they gave in and we posted signs.

What they can not do is use any assets owned by the schools in a levy campaign like their web site, email to communicate with employees, school sign boards, newsletters, phone system, etc. Some of these assets can be used by pro-levy but only if offered or allowed by anti-levy groups. They can also charge for usage but here again have to offer the same rates to both sides.

As to TARTA, since they also are a public entity if pro-levy signs are posted they would also have to allow anti-levy signs.

Campaign finance laws are a jumble in Ohio but prosecution of violations falls in the lap of the county prosecutor and it can be problematic for such an individual in Lucas County to want to get entangled in the fray.

posted by sflagg on Jun 24, 2014 at 09:54:40 am     #  

Where can you get anti-levy signs at? I don't recall ever seeing an anti-levy sign and I would be happy to post one in my loft window and my mother who lives in Toledo would be happy to post one.

+1 on getting rid of BS positions. About five years ago my mother found out Floyd Rose was on the TPS payroll as an "ombudsman" (aka hush money) in the 80s or 90s making something like $40 or $50K a year and Larry Sykes was in a similar position.

And why should the taxpayers be responsible for transportation? If the kids don't want to walk, let their parents give them bus fare for Tarta or arrange car pools. I realize this winter was brutal and a lot of people didn't even bother shoveling their sidewalks, the city should start fining people who don't shovel their walks, especially in areas where there are a lot of kids walking to school and use the fine money towards a transportation fund for kids who can't afford bus fare.

I understand extracurricular activity's are enjoyed by the kids, but why hit up taxpayers who are already struggling? Have local business's help support them and give them advertising recognition for supporting the group. i.e. have the Anderson's sponsor the expenses for a basketball team and allow them to have banners hanging in the gym in return year round. Or let the parents pay part of the costs.

posted by classylady on Jun 24, 2014 at 10:08:24 am     #   5 people liked this

Yeah. The Andersons need to start pulling their weight in this town.
LOL.

posted by justread on Jun 24, 2014 at 10:30:44 am     #   5 people liked this

There were a number of organized anti-levy efforts from 2003 through 2010. The last one was for an income tax in 2010 (WrongTaxWrongTime) and the web site is still up if you care to see what happened then. - http://wrongtaxwrongtime.com/

It takes money to buy signs and you have to have a ballot issue committee registered to raise money and actively campaign as a group.

So for this to happen someone needs to take the lead and a lot of folks have to help.

Of course, you can always make your own sign(s) and that's legal if you do it alone and are not part of a group campaigning against the levy.

posted by sflagg on Jun 24, 2014 at 10:58:37 am     #  

Thanks for that link. I didn't hear of that campaign.

posted by classylady on Jun 24, 2014 at 11:19:26 am     #  

"What they can not do is use any assets owned by the schools in a levy campaign like their web site, email to communicate with employees, school sign boards, newsletters, phone system, etc."

For an example, Chris Myers at Swamp Bubbles is gnawing on the Sylvania school district for its apparent illegal campaigning prior to the school district's May 2014 levy vote.

Apr 29, 2014 - SB - Is Sylvania schools using district resources to promote the levy? The answer is yes. The question should be to what extent?

The Sylvania Schools district would like the residents of Sylvania to pass the 3.8 mil operating levy on May 6. So much so that employees of the district are using district resources to promote their new levy. This can be proven by a set of emails from one school and resources from another.

May 8, 2014 - SB - Sylvania schools contradict an Ohio Attorney General opinion and the Ohio revised code with web link

May 22, 2014 - SB - Sylvania school employees won’t be disciplined for violating OH law that pointed to a Watchdog.org post.

The Sylvania School Board will not take disciplinary action against their superintendent and other staff who violated Ohio law during a recent property tax levy campaign.

The board placed a 3.8 mill continuous levy on the May 6 primary ballot, but it failed. During the campaign, employees of the district used school resources to promote the levy, illegal in Ohio.

Superintendent Brad Rieger, who said he was “responsible for everything,” won’t face any discipline according to board president Jim Nusbaum.

Violation of the law is a first-degree misdemeanor — the same as a DUI.

When asked specifically if any employees would face reprimand or other discipline for violating the law and the board’s own internal policies, he wrote:

“I have discussed these issues and my desire for training with Dr. Rieger and expect he will address these matters appropriately.”

The school district won't discipline itself. I'm stunned.

Break the law, and the "penalty" is more training.

The "training" would be what, how to break the law without getting caught?

Attention to details. If a school district fails to understand a basic law, then it's reasonable for some voters to question how the school system could be trusted to manage its complex responsibilities.

Jun 3, 2014 - SB - Sylvania schools public information request - Our Town Sylvania/Blade story that pointed to a Blade story.

Sylvania Schools may have acted improperly in the way it used staff and resources in its recent unsuccessful tax levy campaign.

Chris Myers has filed a complaint last month with the Ohio Auditor's office, but the state office this week declined to indicate whether it is investigating the matter.

Sylvania Superintendent Brad Rieger could not be reached for comment.

The district's spokesman Nancy Crandell didn‘t answer questions about the accusations but did issue a statement, which said, "“We realize that errors were made during the recent levy campaign. We are taking steps, including training, to ensure it will not happen again.”

Ohio law prohibits a government entity from using its own resources in support of its own levy. but it does permit government or school officials to work on a campaign during their own time.

[Chris] has requested, under the state Open Records law, for all school employee emails, from Feb. 10 to May 6 in which Issue 3 was discussed and a copy of purchase receipts for Web site domains and documents related to who and when the campaign site voteforsylvaniaschools.com was purchased.

Jun 12, 2014 - SB - Latest on Sylvania schools levy public information request

The Sylvania Schools has provided some of my information request and we have been going back-and-forth on the scope of the e-mail request. They also went out of their way to prove who bought and paid for the domain name and the levy web site hosting - I will give them kudos on that. I will produce a more detailed report once I get more information.

posted by jr on Jun 24, 2014 at 11:42:15 am     #  

I'm a bit surprised you did not hear of the campaign. It was well publicized - here is a quote from a May 3, 2010 post on the site: "Besides the Greater Toledo Urban League mentioned in the article, opposition includes the Toledo Area Chamber of Commerce (announced just this past Thursday), African American Parents Association, Minority Contractors Association, Urban Coalition, Toledoans for Public Trust (first to announce in early April) and let’s not forget the Blade."

Even the daily newspaper signed on - that does not happen often.

This new levy was defeated with almost 64% of the voters against.

posted by sflagg on Jun 24, 2014 at 11:56:57 am     #  

Yes JR - Chris would be correct. Chris worked with many of us in the mid-2000 time frame and was well aware of the issues we found regarding the use of public resources. If you check the link I mention you will find that we pointed out illegal use of resources in that campaign.

I will say that the current administrators at TPS have made much stronger attempts to stay within the law including setting up a separate email system for communications in the last two levy campaigns. Still we all need to watch and hold them accountable.

You can not use public funds or assets purchased with public funds or maintained by public funds or employees on TPS time paid for by public funds although employees can use personal time but this creates the need for a system to log time.

posted by sflagg on Jun 24, 2014 at 12:08:56 pm     #  

Academic articles published by the National Bureau of Economic Research indicates that teacher salaries have, at best, a "modest effect" on either retention or quality of instruction. Other variables (that cost no money) have as much or greater impact. Why not try those first?

You would think ****educators**** would actually look at research...you know, unless this is entirely a money grab or something. No, it couldn't possibly be that...

Hanushek, Kain, & Rivkin (1999). Do Higher Salaries Buy Better Teachers?

Hanushek, Kain, O'Brien, & Rivkin (2005). The Market for Teacher Quality.

Hanushek, Kain, & Rivkin (2001). Why Public Schools Lose Teachers.

Note: The National Bureau of Economic Research is no hack organization. Quick description from Wikipedia:

"The NBER is the largest economics research organization in the United States. Many of the American winners of the Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences were NBER Research Associates. Many of the Chairmen of the Council of Economic Advisers have also been NBER Research Associates, including the former NBER President and Harvard Professor, Martin Feldstein. The NBER's current President and CEO is Professor James M. Poterba of MIT.

MIT. Harvard. You know, bastions of anti-teacher sentiment <end sarcasm>.

posted by oldhometown on Jun 24, 2014 at 02:49:24 pm     #  

This boils down to the fact that more than half the TPS payroll are living in the suburbs, and they want to force the remaining Toledo property owners to pay higher taxes, so they're able to maintain their suburban lifestyles while Toledo collapses.

Thankfully, the majority of them do not live here. Voting against any TPS levy shouldn't require much discussion.

posted by 6th_Floor on Jun 24, 2014 at 05:55:04 pm     #   4 people liked this

Well, when McDonald's workers and teachers are paid on par, I'll expect better service in the drive-thru.

posted by justread on Jun 24, 2014 at 05:59:37 pm     #  

I don't remember the exact date, but almost 10 years ago - as reported in the Blade - almost 60% of teacher lived outside the TPS district. If I were a betting man - and I am - I'd wager that number is much higher now.

posted by sflagg on Jun 24, 2014 at 09:28:54 pm     #  

I'm not sure that it bothers me as much that some teachers live outside of the district as it bothers me that people who don't pay property tax can vote to raise it for people who do.

Especially in light of declining homeownership and Toledo becoming a rental zone following the housing "correction."

Those last few homeowners are gonna have one hell of a property tax bill.

posted by justread on Jun 25, 2014 at 06:28:46 am     #   5 people liked this

Justread: I agree about people not owning property voting on tax increases. I also feel the same way about people who aren't employed being able to vote on city income tax renewals.

I also feel property owners who aren't current on their taxes or getting a homestead reduction shouldn't be allowed to vote on property tax issues.

posted by jamesteroh on Jun 25, 2014 at 09:10:29 pm     #   1 person liked this

Note to TPS...we have resided and worked here for a number of years... by the time our child is ready to attend school you can bet we are out of here.

posted by dino on Jun 25, 2014 at 10:56:19 pm     #  

justread posted at 06:28:46 AM on Jun 25, 2014:

I'm not sure that it bothers me as much that some teachers live outside of the district as it bothers me that people who don't pay property tax can vote to raise it for people who do.

Especially in light of declining homeownership and Toledo becoming a rental zone following the housing "correction."

Those last few homeowners are gonna have one hell of a property tax bill.

So If I am a renter in Toledo, and my rent goes up at the end of my lease because my property owner now pays more in property taxes thanks to a TPS levy I am not affected by property tax vote?

posted by glasscityguy on Jun 26, 2014 at 01:36:28 pm     #  

Rents are not based on individual incremental costs of ownership, but what the market will bear. Unless of course, you happen to be renting the very last vacant house in town.

But I like how you think. I need to buy a new furnace for my rental house. Therefore, I can get an extra $200-300 per month from the renter when the lease is up. No problem.
Heck, I should put a new kitchen in it and then charge $1,500 a month for a house that compares with vacant homes renting for $750.

posted by justread on Jun 26, 2014 at 01:56:40 pm     #  

Thanks for the wild exaggeration. I am not saying a landlord is going to start charging an extra 300 per month for an increase to a tax levy. But over time, property taxes are absolutely a part of the price the supplier is willing to rent at in the market. Again, I agree its not as direct but it is part of the price whether the owner thinks about or not. Either the owner makes less money by absorbing the cost or passes it along by increasing a rate. For one landlord it may look like it has no affect at all but across the entire market over time it will. There is plenty of good literature on the subject.

http://ntj.tax.org/wwtax/ntjrec.nsf/175d710dffc186a385256a31007cb40f/54acf229d0ad12cd8525686c00686d59/$FILE/v47n2295.pdf

posted by glasscityguy on Jun 26, 2014 at 02:15:07 pm     #  

My point is, renters in Toledo should be opposed to these TPS increases and owners should ensure their tenants understand the impact of not voting against them.

posted by glasscityguy on Jun 26, 2014 at 02:17:20 pm     #  

Sweet. A Twenty year old report.

Other things will also impact the market over time, like the foreclosure crisis, the inability to sell homes, property values, and vacancy rates.
If there was a direct impact on one's rent as a result of increased levies, renters would know it. But they know the impact is diluted, diffused, and spread over time.

It's not that I don't get your point. It's also not like people can threaten their renters with increases as a result of the exercise of their existing rights.

posted by justread on Jun 26, 2014 at 02:26:12 pm     #  

Why should people who get a homestead exemption not be able to vote on tax levys? Most of us have paid the full amount for many years. In my case 41 years. Three of my kids attended TPS and got a good education.

posted by deere1 on Jun 26, 2014 at 03:48:10 pm     #  

Not really certain on how homestead exemptions work, but if this levy passes, will the homeowner's tax increase the same as someone without a homestead reduction? If so, then by all means people with homestead exemptions should be voting since it effects their taxes.

For renters, if it's a commercial lease it's possible the tenant will absorb the full increase. A lot of commercial leases where the tenant has the entire building are set up the tenant is responsible for the taxes. Our office is in a large multi-tenant building and our lease is set up that we pay our portion of increases in operating costs every year in addition to the rent, so if the taxes on our building go up, all the tenants pay that increase depending on how much space they occupy.

A lot of residential leases state that if taxes go up, the rent can go up in proportion, but I have never seen the clause enforced, usually the landlord just raises the rent when the lease is up.

If someone is in public housing, and LMHA owns the property, no taxes are even being paid on it.

That's one thing I like about VAT type taxes. Everyone pays their fair share.

posted by classylady on Jun 27, 2014 at 11:18:11 am     #  

I am confused by the comment about not wanting voters not current on their taxes to not be allowed to vote on property tax issues.

If someone is behind in their property taxes, they are going to be voting no on a tax increase not in favor of it. If they can't afford their current taxes there is no way they will vote for a tax increase

posted by classylady on Jun 27, 2014 at 11:21:09 am     #  

Voted early and against the levy. Hopefully this new TPS theft is prevented at the polls.

posted by 6th_Floor on Oct 15, 2014 at 06:58:57 pm     #   4 people liked this

I would vote for it if I still lived in TPS. I feel like they are finally on the right track with Dr. Durant.

posted by Anniecski on Oct 16, 2014 at 08:47:31 am     #   5 people liked this

Another vote of confidence for Durant. He has a lot of hard work to do and make up for past failures, but this buy is a gem

posted by Hoops on Oct 16, 2014 at 10:04:33 am     #   5 people liked this

"I would vote for it if I still lived in TPS."

It's probable that TPS would accept donations from outsiders.

I encourage all former TPS district residents to donate money to TPS.

Help us out. We have residents who have not paid property taxes for 5 to 10 years or more.

posted by jr on Oct 16, 2014 at 12:35:49 pm     #   6 people liked this

I have so much confidence in Durant that I think he can do more with less. I know people who need a new roof and a new furnace. They work their butts off and can't get ahead. Why doesn't anyone ever think of the people who cannot afford to pay for these taxes when they vote?

posted by SherryET on Oct 16, 2014 at 05:24:02 pm     #   1 person liked this

Is there any organized opposition?

posted by bucknut on Oct 16, 2014 at 09:15:32 pm     #  

Want to know how much your kids teacher makes?

http://www.buckeyeinstitute.org/teacher-salary

I know many of my kids teachers make WAYYYYY to much.

posted by Erin on Oct 17, 2014 at 06:17:46 pm     #  

Want to know how much your kids teacher makes?

http://www.buckeyeinstitute.org/teacher-salary

I know many of my kids teachers make WAYYYYY to much.

posted by Erin on Oct 17, 2014 at 06:23:19 pm     #  

How much is too much? If the teacher is making 25% more a year than the average of the households of the students they teach might be a indication. But that's just me, people just keep getting pay raises and yet there doesn't ever seem to be an increase in outcomes for the additional money being put in. In the business world that's called piss poor return on investment and would be a reason for closing. Better yet where the money goes might be cause for an investigation and those who have been negligent with company funds or property prosecuted.

posted by MIJeff on Oct 17, 2014 at 07:09:28 pm     #   1 person liked this

I'm a big fan of Durant as well. But folks, do you really think one man in a system dictated by contractual agreements with past practices clause - making everything even negotiated a point for grievance - will let him do his job. The answer is no! I'm not voting for the man but what needs to change. My vote is NO. You can read all the reasons at http://tpsinfo.com. And while there check out the article written about the "Durant Factor" - http://tpsinfo.com/?p=356

I've had the opportunity to work with most of the current cabinet. They are good people. But this levy came from the Board influenced heavily by union leadership. Good article and actually fairly well balanced in today's Blade - http://tinyurl.com/ppcmm5b

I asked questions in the post on The Durant Factor: How can you be critical of a levy when your bosses tell you to do it? How can you be critical of a levy when doing so would mean all the employees you need to motivate think you are trying to scuttle any potential salary increase?

I wouldn’t want to be in that position: would you?

Romules Durant is a stand up guy - one to be admired for his efforts both before and after he became superintendent. But I won't vote for a levy based upon good faith and hope for that does not address the problems from anti-student contract provisions to low starting salaries and salary compression in the first four years for new teachers. The union has through many years of negotiations cannibalized and compressed starting salaries to the point they have an issue. But that is not where the funds will go - raising starting salaries so TPS can actually get the best candidates out of college.

There are many more issues that must be addressed - read the posts and articles linked at http://tpsinfo.com. Then be sure to vote whether you agree with me or not. Fact not Faith!

posted by sflagg on Oct 28, 2014 at 07:16:00 am     #   5 people liked this

Erin posted at 06:23:19 PM on Oct 17, 2014:

Want to know how much your kids teacher makes?

http://www.buckeyeinstitute.org/teacher-salary

I know many of my kids teachers make WAYYYYY to much.

They make WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY too much compared to what? What's your benchmark? How much do they make and how much do you think they should make?

posted by clt212 on Oct 28, 2014 at 08:41:52 am     #   4 people liked this

ugh levy discussion, again. Cpl quick anecdotes. We live in Springfield Township, we picked this area because of the schools and what we got for the money-Springfield has done a lousy job of getting levies passed. The opposition is more organized than the school district. So much so, that the other day I was out front talking to a friend, during school hours while i'm watching 2 kids go down the street sticking fliers in doors, as they get up to my house, I ask them for one so i don't need to fish it out of my door. It turns out its an anti levy flyer. I ask the k 12 y.o. id if he goes to Springfield, and he says "no". Like many districts, Springfield's old budget relied on State funding, which has been greatly reduced. So, in addition to tons of niceties being cut, like busing and sports, we now have positions being phased out and individuals that previously worked in specialized roles now teaching my daughter's 2nd grade class like it was 1957. Springfield was one of the districts with rising property values because of the stability here and the other issues in surrounding districts. Now, that is destined to go the other way. The districts that pass levies give better education to kids, have better credibility on transcripts and are one of the major factor sin property values. Distrust the people running the district? Go to meetings, listen to what they say, and then get them out if you don't like their approach. Denying levies feels like you're putting your foot down, but only 2 groups are rally suffering the kids and the homeowners. As much as it seems like it's an anti-union thing, the teachers union will be the last thing to be affected by this approach.

posted by ahmahler on Oct 28, 2014 at 09:15:01 am     #   6 people liked this

Erin posted at 06:23:19 PM on Oct 17, 2014:

Want to know how much your kids teacher makes?

http://www.buckeyeinstitute.org/teacher-salary

I know many of my kids teachers make WAYYYYY to much.

i looked at Toledo City and the teachers are topping out in the 60s, with most in the 30s. Not sure how that's too much, especially teaching in a city school district. I mean, do you want to attract quality teachers over time?

posted by endcycle on Oct 28, 2014 at 11:45:47 am     #   7 people liked this

The opposition is more organized than the school district.

Well, isn't that a poor reflection on those who are supporting the levy? Seriously, the levy had opposition in August; did they really think the opposition would disappear? They need to get their act together and show voters why they need the money, and how they spend what they have responsibly. Being out-campaigned is a poor excuse for losing.

_I ask the k 12 y.o. id if he goes to Springfield, and he says "no". _

Doesn't mean he doesn't live in the district; he may go to private school. For those of us who pay private tuition AND property taxes, poor management in public schools really ticks us off.

posted by MsArcher on Oct 28, 2014 at 01:13:24 pm     #   3 people liked this

MrsArcher-I can't tell you how frustrated I am about the way this campaign has been run and how poorly they have chosen "when" to put the issue on the ballot-August is prime vacation time for school age families, the core of the supporters. If this doesn't pass, I fully plan on volunteering my marketing opinions for future campaigns.

In other news-

Interesting stats on taxes paid for a few districts. These numbers represent the total % of home value paid per half in each district. They used a $200,000 home as the example.

Ottawa Hills-1.83%
Sylvania-1.31%
Springfield 1.27%
Toledo 1.16%

Based on that single statistic, you could draw a correlation between % of tax paid and quality of education. If you ranked 4 districts, would you put them in this order in terms of quality of education? This is only one number, but it builds an interesting case.

posted by ahmahler on Oct 30, 2014 at 09:25:09 am     #  

LOL. Let's also see the % of Toledo homes that are 200k or greater. Also, run the numbers for every district in the Greater Toledo area instead of a few that help tell the pro-levy side of the story.

I'm paying property taxes in Toledo closer to 2.5-3% of my home's value per half.

posted by 6th_Floor on Oct 30, 2014 at 09:31:46 am     #   1 person liked this

Let's also see the % of Toledo homes that are 200k or greater
;) I knew I'd get hell for that one. The other argument is-how many homes in O.H. are <$200k? Those are the only stats I have. I would like see the full version of these numbers, but that's all they sent out. Still, interesting nonetheless.

posted by ahmahler on Oct 30, 2014 at 09:48:24 am     #  

Also, are those stats citywide for Toledo, or just the Toledo district. Not sure if they account for Washington Local.

posted by Nolan_Rosenkrans on Oct 30, 2014 at 11:22:43 am     #  

I'm guessing these are per school district. Sylvania and Springfield both go through several village/ towns/ townships.

posted by ahmahler on Oct 30, 2014 at 11:52:14 am     #  

"Ottawa Hills-1.83%
Sylvania-1.31%
Springfield 1.27%
Toledo 1.16%"

"Based on that single statistic, you could draw a correlation between % of tax paid and quality of education."


And other data exists at:

Other people probably have recent data or summaries.

This is older info: Expenditure & Revenue Data

Total Expenditures - per TPS student for one school year:

  • FY08 : $11,979
  • FY09 : $13,269
  • FY10 : $13,543
  • FY11 : $13,859
  • FY12 : $12,470

Instructional - per TPS student for one school year:

  • FY08 : $6,266
  • FY09 : $6,916
  • FY10 : $7,146
  • FY11 : $7,537
  • FY12 : $6,582


Total Expenditures FY12 - per student - area school districts - cost displayed lowest to highest - along with the percentage of performance indicators met for the 2013-2014 school year.

Eastwood Local SDWood$7,907100%
Lake Local SDWood$8,52683.3%
Otsego Local SDWood$8,52983.3%
Perrysburg Ex Vill SDWood$8,581100%
Elmwood Local SDWood$8,60075.0%
Anthony Wayne Local SDLucas$8,960100%
Springfield Local SDLucas$9,11870.8%
North Baltimore Local SDWood$9,14766.7%
Northwood Local SDWood$9,23979.2%
Oregon City SDLucas$9,87470.8%
Bowling Green City SDWood$10,31979.2%
Sylvania City SDLucas$10,660100%
Washington Local SDLucas$11,22566.7%
Maumee City SDLucas$11,23291.7%
Toledo City SDLucas$12,4708.3%
Ottawa Hills Local SDLucas$13,501100%
Rossford Ex Vill SDWood$15,58975.0%


Old post from Toledo Talk:

Toledo Public School system report cards are released in August, and they cover the previous school year:

  • 2002 : report card showed TPS met 5 of 27 academic standards (18%) during the 2001-2002 school year
  • 2003 : 6 of 22 - (27%)
  • 2004 : 7 of 18 - (39%)
  • 2005 : 4 of 23 - (17%)
  • 2006 : 6 of 25 - (24%)
  • 2007 : 5 of 30 - (17%)
  • 2008 : 5 of 30 - (17%)
  • 2009 : 6 of 30 - (20%)
  • 2010 : 4 of 26 - (15%)
  • 2011 : 5 of 26 - (19%)


You can also view performance data for each school building within a district.

Elmhurst Elementary, located in our neighborhood, continues to perform well, meeting 100% of the indicators.


This is very old data. Maybe updated info exists.

September 2004 Toledo Talk thread that excerpted from a Toledo Blade story about teacher's pay. That Blade story included detailed, tabular data that existed in the print version but not on its website.

Nationally, the average salary for a teacher was $45,771. Ohio ranked 15th in the nation in average salary at $45,515. But the state ranked 27th for its average beginning teacher salary of $28,866.

Michigan teachers on average took home nearly $10,000 more than their Ohio counterparts. The average teacher salary in that state was $54,020, which was the second-highest in the nation behind California.

Toledo Public Schools pays $32,697 annually to a teacher straight out of college.

Catholic high schools in the metro Toledo area paid an average starting salary of $24,506 last year.

On the elementary-school level, the average starting pay was $20,925.

The affluent Ottawa Hills school district offers a starting salary of $31,602 a year.


My September 2004 comments based upon the data from that September 2004 Blade story:

TPS pays a higher starting salary than Ottawa Hills for teachers with a Bachelors degree.

But OH has a much higher average salary at $60,621 versus TPS's $45,968.

With a Master's degree, the starting salaries between the two [school districts] are about the same.

With just a Bachelors degree and 27 years experience, TPS pays $55,577 and OH pays $53,091.

With a Masters degree and 27 years experience, OH pays $70,788 and TPS pays $60,595.

The average salary for Ottawa Hills is tops in northwest Ohio and ninth highest in Ohio.

Catholic school teachers are paid considerably less than public school teachers.

posted by jr on Oct 30, 2014 at 12:06:13 pm     #  

jr posted at 12:06:13 PM on Oct 30, 2014:

"Ottawa Hills-1.83%
Sylvania-1.31%

Springfield 1.27%

Toledo 1.16%"

"Based on that single statistic, you could draw a correlation between % of tax paid and quality of education."


And other data exists at:

Other people probably have recent data or summaries.

This is older info: Expenditure & Revenue Data

Total Expenditures - per TPS student for one school year:

  • FY08 : $11,979
  • FY09 : $13,269
  • FY10 : $13,543
  • FY11 : $13,859
  • FY12 : $12,470

Instructional - per TPS student for one school year:

  • FY08 : $6,266
  • FY09 : $6,916
  • FY10 : $7,146
  • FY11 : $7,537
  • FY12 : $6,582


Total Expenditures FY12 - per student - area school districts - cost displayed lowest to highest - along with the percentage of performance indicators met for the 2013-2014 school year.

Eastwood Local SDWood$7,907100%
Lake Local SDWood$8,52683.3%
Otsego Local SDWood$8,52983.3%
Perrysburg Ex Vill SDWood$8,581100%
Elmwood Local SDWood$8,60075.0%
Anthony Wayne Local SDLucas$8,960100%
Springfield Local SDLucas$9,11870.8%
North Baltimore Local SDWood$9,14766.7%
Northwood Local SDWood$9,23979.2%
Oregon City SDLucas$9,87470.8%
Bowling Green City SDWood$10,31979.2%
Sylvania City SDLucas$10,660100%
Washington Local SDLucas$11,22566.7%
Maumee City SDLucas$11,23291.7%
Toledo City SDLucas$12,4708.3%
Ottawa Hills Local SDLucas$13,501100%
Rossford Ex Vill SDWood$15,58975.0%


Old post from Toledo Talk:

Toledo Public School system report cards are released in August, and they cover the previous school year:

  • 2002 : report card showed TPS met 5 of 27 academic standards (18%) during the 2001-2002 school year
  • 2003 : 6 of 22 - (27%)
  • 2004 : 7 of 18 - (39%)
  • 2005 : 4 of 23 - (17%)
  • 2006 : 6 of 25 - (24%)
  • 2007 : 5 of 30 - (17%)
  • 2008 : 5 of 30 - (17%)
  • 2009 : 6 of 30 - (20%)
  • 2010 : 4 of 26 - (15%)
  • 2011 : 5 of 26 - (19%)


You can also view performance data for each school building within a district.

Elmhurst Elementary, located in our neighborhood, continues to perform well, meeting 100% of the indicators.


This is very old data. Maybe updated info exists.

September 2004 Toledo Talk thread that excerpted from a Toledo Blade story about teacher's pay. That Blade story included detailed, tabular data that existed in the print version but not on its website.

Nationally, the average salary for a teacher was $45,771. Ohio ranked 15th in the nation in average salary at $45,515. But the state ranked 27th for its average beginning teacher salary of $28,866.

Michigan teachers on average took home nearly $10,000 more than their Ohio counterparts. The average teacher salary in that state was $54,020, which was the second-highest in the nation behind California.

Toledo Public Schools pays $32,697 annually to a teacher straight out of college.

Catholic high schools in the metro Toledo area paid an average starting salary of $24,506 last year.

On the elementary-school level, the average starting pay was $20,925.

The affluent Ottawa Hills school district offers a starting salary of $31,602 a year.


My September 2004 comments based upon the data from that September 2004 Blade story:

TPS pays a higher starting salary than Ottawa Hills for teachers with a Bachelors degree.

But OH has a much higher average salary at $60,621 versus TPS's $45,968.

With a Master's degree, the starting salaries between the two [school districts] are about the same.

With just a Bachelors degree and 27 years experience, TPS pays $55,577 and OH pays $53,091.

With a Masters degree and 27 years experience, OH pays $70,788 and TPS pays $60,595.

The average salary for Ottawa Hills is tops in northwest Ohio and ninth highest in Ohio.

Catholic school teachers are paid considerably less than public school teachers.

A useful tool is the Advanced Reports section on the report cards website (It used to be called the Power Users website). You can break down data pretty easily and do comparisons among districts quickly. You can also export to Excel to build tables.

posted by Nolan_Rosenkrans on Oct 30, 2014 at 12:49:46 pm     #  

Nolan, if you have the information (or a link to the info), would you please post the headcounts at each TPS school.

Recently I was told that Woodward only has approximately 500 enrolled students. I don't believe it's that low, but would like to see actual TPS numbers.

I also heard Scott only had 65 graduates in June 2014. If TPS is going to tell us about their new football field turf and remodeled school, we also should be told about their tiny graduating classes.

Failing this levy will force their hands toward closing another high school or two...something that should have been done years ago. TPS wouldn't need additional funding, if they downsized their building and employee counts to reflect their enrollment.

posted by 6th_Floor on Oct 30, 2014 at 01:07:28 pm     #  

Voting no here. If the school board waste $36,000 a year to an "Ombudsman" they don't need to be hitting me up for another handout

posted by classylady on Oct 30, 2014 at 01:19:40 pm     #  

I have them in a spreadsheet so can't really link. First week of October Woodward had 657, Scott had 634.

posted by Nolan_Rosenkrans on Oct 30, 2014 at 02:15:37 pm     #  

Total Expenditures FY12 - per student - area school districts - cost displayed lowest to highest - along with the percentage of performance indicators met for the 2013-2014 school year.
Eastwood Local SD Wood $7,907 100%
Lake Local SD Wood $8,526 83.3%
Otsego Local SD Wood $8,529 83.3%
Perrysburg Ex Vill SD Wood $8,581 100%
Elmwood Local SD Wood $8,600 75.0%
Anthony Wayne Local SD Lucas $8,960 100%
Springfield Local SD Lucas $9,118 70.8%
North Baltimore Local SD Wood $9,147 66.7%
Northwood Local SD Wood $9,239 79.2%
Oregon City SD Lucas $9,874 70.8%
Bowling Green City SD Wood $10,319 79.2%
Sylvania City SD Lucas $10,660 100%
Washington Local SD Lucas $11,225 66.7%
Maumee City SD Lucas $11,232 91.7%
Toledo City SD Lucas $12,470 8.3%
Ottawa Hills Local SD Lucas $13,501 100%
Rossford Ex Vill SD Wood $15,589 75.0%

I'd like to see another column that shows the poverty rate for each community, which I believe may be a larger contributing factor than the amount spent per pupil.

posted by Anniecski on Oct 30, 2014 at 02:18:24 pm     #   1 person liked this

Doubt there are many properties in Toledo city school district over $200K. I live in Elmhurst district in a fairly big home in area and it's that's been renovated recently & my home is significantly less than $200K after last valuation. I pay 1.3% for TPS taxes. So on par with Sylvania at 1.31%. ODE advanced reports let you tease out & compare lots of data. But not as easily as I'd like.

Poverty is an issue for many schools still it's also about how teachers are assigned - seniority only - and the inability to match teaching resources to need. Starting salaries appear to be an issue as I mentioned in earlier post. I'm going to post data on all K-8 schools regarding teachers including avg salaries, tenure, turnover & vacancy rates, etc. including poverty rates tomorrow morning at http://TPSinfo.com

posted by sflagg on Oct 30, 2014 at 02:54:40 pm     #  

"I'd like to see another column that shows the poverty rate for each community, which I believe may be a larger contributing factor than the amount spent per pupil."

What's the relationship, if any, between the amount spent per pupil and the percentage of performance indicators met?

It seems like the amount spent and the district's performance is all over the place.

  • Eastwood Local - $7,907 - 100%
  • Perrysburg Ex Vill - $8,581 - 100%
  • Toledo City - $12,470 - 8.3%
  • Ottawa Hills Local - $13,501 - 100%
  • Rossford Ex Vill - $15,589 - 75.0%

I would think that Rossford residents would have some questions.

And within TPS, why do some individual school buildings, such as our beloved Elmhurst Elementary, perform consistently well while other buildings routinely struggle?

"I'd like to see another column that shows the poverty rate for each community ..."

You might have to show some standard demographic info, such as household income and adult education level, at the zip code level, and then compare that data to the rankings of individual school buildings within the zip codes. Whether it proves anything, who knows. Others can interpret.

You can play around with this mapping tool, which shows some demographic information at the zip code level, but unfortunately, I think this data is several years old. But it could still prove useful on a relative basis.

http://www.propertymaps.com/maps/polylines.php

According to a quick check with the above mapping tool, the average household income for Toledo zip codes ranges from around $24,000 to over $40,000.

posted by jr on Oct 30, 2014 at 03:05:14 pm     #  

Nolan, would you please list the other TPS high schools, including the specialty high schools such as the Technology Academy.

Also, any k-8 schools that are below 300.

Thank you for posting the information.

posted by 6th_Floor on Oct 30, 2014 at 03:23:37 pm     #  

jr posted at 03:05:14 PM on Oct 30, 2014:

"I'd like to see another column that shows the poverty rate for each community, which I believe may be a larger contributing factor than the amount spent per pupil."

What's the relationship, if any, between the amount spent per pupil and the percentage of performance indicators met?

It seems like the amount spent and the district's performance is all over the place.

  • Eastwood Local - $7,907 - 100%
  • Perrysburg Ex Vill - $8,581 - 100%
  • Toledo City - $12,470 - 8.3%
  • Ottawa Hills Local - $13,501 - 100%
  • Rossford Ex Vill - $15,589 - 75.0%

I would think that Rossford residents would have some questions.

And within TPS, why do some individual school buildings, such as our beloved Elmhurst Elementary, perform consistently well while other buildings routinely struggle?

"I'd like to see another column that shows the poverty rate for each community ..."

You might have to show some standard demographic info, such as household income and adult education level, at the zip code level, and then compare that data to the rankings of individual school buildings within the zip codes. Whether it proves anything, who knows. Others can interpret.

You can play around with this mapping tool, which shows some demographic information at the zip code level, but unfortunately, I think this data is several years old. But it could still prove useful on a relative basis.

http://www.propertymaps.com/maps/polylines.php

According to a quick check with the above mapping tool, the average household income for Toledo zip codes ranges from around $24,000 to over $40,000.

As an inexact proxy for poverty levels, you can use economic hardship levels for each schools using the Advanced Reports. Economic hardship levels are the free and reduced lunch levels.

posted by Nolan_Rosenkrans on Oct 30, 2014 at 03:50:17 pm     #  

First numbers are building codes. Because of merged cells I couldn't delete them. These are as of Oct. 3, 2014.
STUDENT STATISTICAL TOTAL
100 Arlington Elementary
403
102 Beverly Elementary
664
103 Birmingham Elementary
421
104 Burroughs Elementary
426
105 Chase STEM Academy
239
106 Rosa Parks Elementary
260
110 Edgewater Elementary
169
111 Elmhurst Elementary
564
113 Crossgates Preschool Center
132
116 Garfield Elementary
485
119 Glenwood Elementary
238
123 Harvard Elementary
380
124 Hawkins Elementary
378
125 Educare at Reynolds
22
127 Keyser Elementary
244
130 Larchmont Elementary
508
132 Longfellow Elementary
618
134 McKinley Elementary
299
136 Marshall Elementary
324
138 Navarre Elementary
522
140 Oakdale Elementary
418
141 Old Orchard Elementary
359
142 Ottawa River Elementary
497
143 Old West End Academy
287
144 Grove Patterson Academy
408
145 Pickett Elementary
266
148 Raymer Elementary
508
149 Reynolds Elementary
315
150 Riverside Elementary
388
152 King Academy for Boys
227
154 Sherman Elementary
303
156 Spring Elementary
267
157 Stewart Academy for Girls
209
159 Walbridge Elementary
325
161 Mayfair Preschool
177
163 Whittier Elementary
593
182 Glendale-Feilbach Elementary
369
183 Summit Annex Preschool
27
184 McTigue Preschool
53
202 Jones Leadership Academy
168
204 East Broadway Elementary
435
206 Leverette Elementary
346
212 Robinson Elementary
317
213 McTigue Elementary
427
217 Byrnedale Elementary
376
218 DeVeaux Elementary
430
250 Bowsher High School
1,298
251 Toledo Technology Academy
287
252 Toledo Early College
228
254 Rogers High School
754
255 Scott High School
634
257 Start High School
1,485
258 Waite High School
877
259 Woodward High School
657
260 - Lucas County Juv Det
2
261 Westfield Achievement
154
317 Youth Treatment Center
27
340 Robinson Achievement
62
Total(Current Building Name) 22,256

posted by Nolan_Rosenkrans on Oct 30, 2014 at 04:02:09 pm     #   1 person liked this

Thank you very much Nolan.

posted by 6th_Floor on Oct 30, 2014 at 10:35:41 pm     #  

http://www.toledoblade.com/Politics/2014/11/01/Toledo-City-Council-declines-to-back-school-levies.html

Councilman Lindsay Webb asked for the resolutions endorsing the levies at the behest of Toledo school board member Lisa Sobecki. Ms. Webb declined to say why she reversed course and asked for both to be tabled.

Ms. Sobecki said she did not know why the 12-member council did not vote on the endorsements.

“It won’t hurt the levy chances,” she said. “We have great support, and we had a [news] conference with labor leaders, pastors, the mayor — all were there — so I don’t foresee any issues with the passage of a levy this year.”

posted by oldhometown on Nov 01, 2014 at 04:47:44 pm     #