Toledo Talk

The latest on the Red Light Camera's?

Good morning. I seen that the Ohio Supreme court (I believe this was the court), voted in favor of Toledo (there is a surprise) that the Red Light Camera's are legal and the city can keep using them to extort money from its citizens. There was something however about Gov. Kasich having to sign off on something that I didn't catch what that was about. Does anyone here have the scoop on whats going on now and how it effects us? Happy New Year!

created by reggie on Dec 29, 2014 at 08:58:04 am     Local-Politics     Comments: 86

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Ohio House passed 58-31 on Dec. 10 and the Senate 24-9 after that lesgislation for the Governor's signing that a police officer has to be present at the location for a citation to be issued. Dayton Ohio claims that will cost them an additional $14m a year in safety costs. Even if it is passed there will be court examination on wheither or not the state is infringing on "home rule," or the cities' right to do as they please locally. The Ohio Supreme case decided on behalf of Toledo against a Kentucky motorist means Toledo will not have to return millions collected in citations... so don't be looking for check. Until the dusk settles here's a link showing the 44 cameras with one mobile used by Toledo.

http://toledopolice.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=35&Itemid=202

Drive aware, slow the hell down and keep your hard earned money.

posted by Mariner on Dec 29, 2014 at 10:38:36 am     #  

Heh - that map is pretty telling, Mariner.

<deadpan voice> Gee, there are tons of cameras in the wealthier parts of town, but hardly any in the poorer parts of town. I guess the poor must not speed or run red lights, since of course these cameras are all about safety, not revenue enhancement. </deadpan voice>

posted by historymike on Dec 29, 2014 at 03:39:31 pm     #   3 people liked this

After all Dr., it is a pay to play world.

posted by Mariner on Dec 29, 2014 at 04:22:54 pm     #  

What will they do to you if you don't pay the fine? My husband got nailed doing 52 in a 45, but he's refusing to pay it.

posted by MsUnderstood on Dec 29, 2014 at 08:28:41 pm     #  

As has been suggested here by others (and me), if this is truly about safety - which we know is BS - then have the lights remain red in all directions for a few seconds as opposed to the instant change most are currently set up for.

posted by Foodie on Dec 30, 2014 at 08:59:01 am     #  

MsUnderstood posted at 08:28:41 PM on Dec 29, 2014:

What will they do to you if you don't pay the fine? My husband got nailed doing 52 in a 45, but he's refusing to pay it.

The company that operates the cameras can turn the unpaid ticket over to a bill collector, which then appears as a negative item on your credit report, MsUnderstood.

Probably not a deal-killer if you are applying for a mortgage, but the credit score hit might theoretically have some longer-term financing consequences like slightly higher rates or needing PMI for a loan if the drop in credit rating occurred right at a cut-off point between levels.

posted by historymike on Dec 30, 2014 at 09:13:29 am     #  

So if I'm reading this right, Nothing as of now changed as far as Toledo goes. In under ninety days when the bill that Kasich signed tales effect a police officer will have to witness the infraction. Is the reason that the Ohio supreme court ruled in Toledo's favor only mean that no damages have to be paid to anyone? Can't tell if the red light camera's are here to stay or not. So its not over yet?
When will this dust settle ?Confusing!

Historymike, that seems like some more BS, that a bill collector can damage your credit report under any circumstance without having all the potential facts. I call foul!

posted by reggie on Dec 30, 2014 at 09:36:33 am     #  

that a bill collector can damage your credit report under any circumstance without having all the potential facts.

You can certainly protest or appeal records on your credit report and get improper negatives off of your report. But you have to prove its not your debt or its not a legitimate bill, and I don't see that happening in this case. As the law has been tested, your car, your bill unless you turn in someone else who was driving.

I just came back from Florida and while driving down there we saw an interesting blue light below the stop light structure, that lit up at certain times. Did a little digging, and it turns out that a cop was on the back side of a stop light (so he couldn't see the red light), saw someone go thru what the cop assumed/thought was a red light and gave the guy a ticket. The guy fought the ticket and won because the cop did not 'see' the red light, he only assumed based on the timing of the lights that this guy's light was red. So now Florida (or at least in the area we were in), these blue lights light up to indicate to all sides who has a red light.

posted by MsArcher on Dec 30, 2014 at 10:05:46 am     #  

historymike posted at 09:13:29 AM on Dec 30, 2014:
MsUnderstood posted at 08:28:41 PM on Dec 29, 2014:

What will they do to you if you don't pay the fine? My husband got nailed doing 52 in a 45, but he's refusing to pay it.

The company that operates the cameras can turn the unpaid ticket over to a bill collector, which then appears as a negative item on your credit report, MsUnderstood.

Probably not a deal-killer if you are applying for a mortgage, but the credit score hit might theoretically have some longer-term financing consequences like slightly higher rates or needing PMI for a loan if the drop in credit rating occurred right at a cut-off point between levels.


My husband got one of these in the early days of cameras in Toledo and never paid it. We got quite a few "pay or else" letters followed by the threat of it being on his credit report. Nothing ever happened AND it has never appeared on his report.

posted by emdubs on Dec 30, 2014 at 09:45:40 pm     #  

Had to chuckle when a newspaper that defends automated speed and red light traps in Toledo goes after Woodville that writes an average of 3.2 tickets per day.

The people in Woodville are like, yeah... and your roads suck too.

Toledo has the audacity to exploit the Anthony Wayne Trail for revenue, but won't devote the resources to making it drivable.
I'd rather have the delays of a rolling lane closure to do patching that get new tires, wheels, and suspension.

posted by justread on Feb 09, 2015 at 07:59:26 pm     #   12 people liked this

justread posted at 07:59:26 PM on Feb 09, 2015:

Had to chuckle when a newspaper that defends automated speed and red light traps in Toledo goes after Woodville that writes an average of 3.2 tickets per day.

The people in Woodville are like, yeah... and your roads suck too.

Toledo has the audacity to exploit the Anthony Wayne Trail for revenue, but won't devote the resources to making it drivable.
I'd rather have the delays of a rolling lane closure to do patching that get new tires, wheels, and suspension.

I have two theories as to why the Blade is giving Woodville the Tom Noe treatment: either some Blade brass got a speeding ticket; or it's all related to the continuing creepy dog-love exhibited by the Blade (the dog that was shot by a Woodville officer).

posted by dell_diva on Feb 09, 2015 at 10:58:19 pm     #  

I would bet on the dog theory.

posted by In_vin_veritas on Feb 10, 2015 at 12:11:37 pm     #   3 people liked this

The dog was mentioned in today's Blade article about speed traps nonetheless.
http://www.toledoblade.com/local/2015/02/10/Woodville-officials-say-little-over-ticket-probe.html

posted by OneMoreBourbon on Feb 10, 2015 at 01:47:02 pm     #  

I wonder how often the blade has sent reporters to regular Woodville city council meetings in the past.

posted by In_vin_veritas on Feb 10, 2015 at 05:00:54 pm     #  

http://m.toledoblade.com/Keith-Burris/2015/02/15/Woodville-Worst-little-town-in-Ohio.html

Well I think that answers that. So ok using cameras is all about safety using officers is bullying and revenue. But hey what does the Blade know about bullying.

posted by In_vin_veritas on Feb 15, 2015 at 07:23:26 am     #  

From Burris's pathetic rant:

... a local policeman shot a dog named Moses.

From yesterday's Blade op-ed titled Ticket trap

... the officer shot the dog ...

JRB loves dogs. That's great. But this crusade against Woodville is demented journalism at best.

More from yesterday's op-ed:

Woodville officials are using speeding tickets primarily to raise revenue ...

As others have mentioned, that's what Toledo is doing with its gotcha traffic enforcement cameras. It has never been about safety with the cameras. The cameras provide a source of revenue that's budgeted by the city. Toledo doesn't want safe drivers. The city would have a budget hole to fill if everyone started driving safely in the camera areas.

The Village of Woodville has abused northwest Ohio motorists for far too long ...

So has Toledo with its cameras and especially with its f*cked up roads.

If the Blade truly wanted to help, it should focus all its energies on a Toledo issue. One single issue for 2015.

Fix the f*cking roads

You will do better in Toledo if the f*cking roads are fixed.

More from yesterday's op-ed:

If a boycott of the town’s businesses is needed finally to get the attention of its public officials, so be it.

It's definitely loony bin time for the Blade editorial board. A boycott? Who participates in the boycott campaign? Elmore residents?

What's lost on Burris and the other Blade writers who are engaged in this dog-shit journalism is how everyone else is laughing in mocking fashion at the Blade.

posted by jr on Feb 15, 2015 at 08:08:37 am     #   13 people liked this

The only boycott right now should be every resident and business in Woodville to cancel the blade jk. Because yes the business there have any say about the police.

posted by In_vin_veritas on Feb 15, 2015 at 08:52:40 am     #  

Sorry I'm taking this further off line . . . . It was nice that the Blade had the decency to print this morning's daily rant against Woodville below the front page fold. To their further credit, this Burris piece was properly labeled an editorial.

Several sections later, the editors allowed the printing of not one but two Letters to the Editor that were rightfully critical of the way the Blade continues to "Bully" a small city.

http://www.toledoblade.com/Letters-to-the-Editor/2015/02/15/Woodville-expos-done-out-of-spite.html

http://www.toledoblade.com/Letters-to-the-Editor/2015/02/15/Speed-trap-story-abuse-of-Blade-s-power.html

/back to this thread . . . the Blade supports Toledo's red light cameras for speed and red light violations but thinks it unfair that Woodville have police that actively enforce it's posted speed limits.

Is the speed camera at Cass and Heatherdowns any less of a trap for unsuspecting drivers leaving a show at the Stranahan en route to the Turnpike than the speed trap in Woodville?

posted by jimavolt on Feb 15, 2015 at 09:24:58 am     #   4 people liked this

When a Toledo traffic enforcement camera vaporizes a dog, then the Blade editorial board will oppose the gotcha-cams.

posted by jr on Feb 15, 2015 at 09:44:27 am     #   7 people liked this

Highlighted excerpts from a Nov 29, 2014 Toledo Blade op-ed titled Maintain traffic cameras

Since 2002, the first full year these cameras were used in Toledo, statistics show that they have made streets safer and reduced traffic violations and deaths.

Then I claim that the Woodville police are making their streets safer by enforcing their posted speed limits.

Though unpopular among lawbreaking motorists, the cameras — with a few notorious exceptions, in which they have been used as revenue-raising devices [Toledo] — are valuable law-enforcement tools.

Getting busted for speeding in Woodville is also unpopular among lawbreaking motorists. I know because I got busted for speeding through downtown Woodville late on a Sunday night 20 years ago. I didn't pay attention to the multiple, step-down speed limits when entering Woodville.

So based upon my first-hand experience, I claim that the Woodville police are a valuable law-enforcement tool.

It seems like this hack, anti-Woodville journalism by the Blade may endanger the lives of Woodville residents if the police are prohibited from keeping their downtown safe. Is the Blade endorsing the idea of dangerous, lawbreaking driving in Woodville?

Toledo politicians have admitted in the past that the city is dependent upon the revenue generated by traffic enforcement cameras, which obviously means that the cameras are not meant for safety.

People who don't mind Toledo's revenue-generating cams will suggest things like, "Don't speed or don't run a red light if you don't want to be caught." Got it. Obey the laws.

Then ditto for downtown Woodville. Signs are posted. If motorists don't want to receive a speeding ticket, then they should pay attention to the signs and don't speed. Obey the law. Simple.

The end of red-light and speed-enforcement cameras would endanger the safety and lives of Ohio motorists. The cameras reduce the number of accidents and fatalities at the intersections where they are placed. This important public safety tool should not be eliminated.

I'll claim that the same thing applies to Woodville's police department. They are concerned about the safety of the town's citizens. If ticketing excessively can save just one life, then it's a great program.

To play along with the absurd thinking of the Blade editorial board, if you oppose the actions of the Woodville police, then you support death to Woodville citizens. You endorse dangerous driving that could crush kids who are crossing the street on their way to school. Shame on you. You mutilator.

posted by jr on Feb 15, 2015 at 10:35:33 am     #   5 people liked this

Keith Burris: the worst little "journalist" at the worst little newspaper in Ohio.

Where's Mr. Hem? Is he still waiting for his employer to formulate their response to us insignificant anonymous internet posters? I hope he's done licking JRB's asshole soon because for the first time ever, I really want to hear his opinion on this piece of shit excuse for journalism. Because if you think it's ok, then you are insane. No amount of money would entice me to defend a company like the Blade. None.

posted by dell_diva on Feb 15, 2015 at 12:35:02 pm     #  

Trolling, or just forgot to take your meds? Maybe both? I bet your have conversations with the people in your TV.

posted by paulhem on Feb 15, 2015 at 01:19:45 pm     #   5 people liked this

dell_diva posted at 12:35:02 PM on Feb 15, 2015:

Keith Burris: the worst little "journalist" at the worst little newspaper in Ohio.

Where's Mr. Hem? Is he still waiting for his employer to formulate their response to us insignificant anonymous internet posters? I hope he's done licking JRB's asshole soon because for the first time ever, I really want to hear his opinion on this piece of shit excuse for journalism. Because if you think it's ok, then you are insane. No amount of money would entice me to defend a company like the Blade. None.

Paul's job does not require him to agree with the sentiments of every editorial or op-ed column the paper runs. I am sure that he has disagreed with all sorts of things that get printed in the Blade.

Does he stick up for his employer from time to time on message boards? Sure. Is he a soulless toady with an utter lack of self-respect? No.

I have to say this was a cheap shot, dell_diva.

posted by historymike on Feb 15, 2015 at 01:27:26 pm     #   7 people liked this

Dashboard therm-o-meter says 9* at the moment. Seems like its getting kinda contentious here in the social sandbox. Must mean all the kindness is reserved for relatives closed in quick proximity to arms throw distance. Stay healthy guys.

posted by Mariner on Feb 15, 2015 at 01:42:30 pm     #   1 person liked this

Mariner, you can make a º symbol by holding the alt key while typing 0186 on the number pad, letting go the alt key. there are a lot of ansii codes you can bring up that way, ²=0178, ³=0179, ™=0153, ¢=0162, ×=0215, and ÷=0247. I am not sure how to do these on a laptop since they don't have the separate number pad. I actually used excel spreadsheet and typed out all the codes from 0033 to 0255, most are special language characters some punctuation, normal letters and symbols.

posted by MIJeff on Feb 15, 2015 at 02:21:01 pm     #  

*- Sidebar-apologies

Mljeff-You can also find them in the "character map", you can see all of the available symbols there-I often need é, è, â etc, and that has become indispensable.

*end of side bar-continue previous discussion

posted by ahmahler on Feb 15, 2015 at 02:50:20 pm     #  

Thks for the how to tips. Make no claim to high levels of precision. Also tend to get laid back on the 7th day.

posted by Mariner on Feb 16, 2015 at 05:58:48 am     #   1 person liked this

I had not put together the dog thing and the speed trap article. I guess I hadn't thought of it. It must suck to consider yourself a respectable journalist and then allow yourself to be used for cheap shot commentaries like the one Burris signed his name to.

posted by Ace_Face on Feb 16, 2015 at 03:34:10 pm     #   2 people liked this

If Woodville is the "worst little town in Ohio" (way to plant that flag, Toledo Blade! Not like that will show up on Google searches for the next 10 years) for shooting a dog and giving traffic tickets, what do we label Ottawa Hills, known also for having asshole cops that give lots of tickets and shoot and paralyze motorcyclists? You know...as long as we're painting with a broad brush.

Woodville cops, 30 miles away, shot ****one**** dog and dare to keep people from going 70 mph through the village and they're the devil (as I read, pedestrian safety is a "lame excuse" for enforcing speed limits. I'll try that on my next violation challenge).

An Ottawa Hills cop, a village completely surrounded by Toledo, blew a guy right off his bike seat to a wheelchair seat permanently. Why isn't Ottawa Hills stained with this "Worst Little Town" shit? Hey, don't forget the drunk kid whose parents are suing everyone that even breathed on their boy...if you needed a more current example why Ottawa Hills sucks. And it's right in the center of Toledo proper...you don't even have to send a crack reporter very far! C'mon Blade staffers, get in there and stick it to 'em. Need more? I'm sure there are (gasp gasp) Republicans who live in Ottawa Hills!!!

Can't believe I wasted 2 minutes of my life reading that f@#king article, just to see what everyone was talking about. Those of you who pay to read this shit need to really examine what you are supporting. If you just get the Blade for comics and sudoku or jumble, buy a big book of puzzles and get your comics online at www.arcamax.com.

posted by oldhometown on Feb 17, 2015 at 03:08:56 am     #   7 people liked this

Re-reading my post, perhaps my point got a little lost.

I'm curious as to what a town in the sticks did to deserve an anal ("Burris") probe when a quaint little idyllic village in our midst skates by with obvious issues...

posted by oldhometown on Feb 17, 2015 at 04:56:16 am     #   5 people liked this

As long as one of those issues isn't a failure to respect The Blade they should be ok.

posted by justread on Feb 17, 2015 at 06:12:05 am     #   5 people liked this

If the OHPD would have shot a dog instead of a person, you can bet they would have received that moniker.

Side note: Burris lives in Ottawa Hills.

posted by Ace_Face on Feb 17, 2015 at 08:11:35 am     #  

"... what do we label Ottawa Hills, known also for having asshole cops that give lots of tickets and shoot and paralyze motorcyclists?"

Since Burris lives in Ottawa Hills, he could provide a first-hand account, Brian Williams-style, of how dangerous it is to live or visit Ottawa Hills. But apparently, he takes a head-in-the-sand approach to his town.

Last year, Burris wrote :

At the last Community Coalition forum, Harold Mosley stood up during the question period. He’s a retired policeman and is black. He said his son, a good kid, is hassled constantly. The worst place, he said, is Ottawa Hills.

People tell me if a black kid walks or drives down Indian Road in Ottawa Hills, he’s virtually sure to be stopped by the police. I live on that street. I am glad it is well patrolled. I understand police vigilance can look a lot like profiling.

Burris is thankful for "police vigilance" in patrolling his street in Ottawa Hills.

He's upset that Woodville police ticket law-breaking motorists who drive more than 10 mph over the speed limit, but it appears that he has no problem with Ottawa Hills police possibly harassing people who are not breaking any laws.

Burris also wrote in that May 2014 column:

But surely it is possible to do good police work without profiling. Racial profiling should be totally unacceptable in 2014. It’s disgraceful. And if you say it doesn’t exist, that’s a lie too.

I think that I understand. When police in other communities do their job, it's called racial profiling. But in your town, it's called police vigilance.

And if this is true: "... if a black kid walks or drives down Indian Road in Ottawa Hills, he’s virtually sure to be stopped by the police."

Then that's magnitudes worse than an alleged speed trap.

Burris wrote the following in his Feb 15, 2015 column about Woodville, but it seems like it could apply to where Burris lives:

I would like to see Attorney General Mike DeWine impose a minimal standard of training for police officers in Ohio. If he feels he hasn’t that authority, then we need new state legislation.

I just hope some state legislator in northwest Ohio has the guts to introduce such a bill.

But the broader issues are bullying and self-respect. This is a town [Ottawa Hills] whose authority structure is built on bullying.

The citizens of [Ottawa Hills] must, at some point say: “Enough!” They need to replace the leadership team in town, starting with the mayor and police chief. This is what democracy is about: Out with the old and failed. In with fresh blood so there can be a new start.

It’s a matter of self-respect.

The people of [Ottawa Hills] must reform their town government — or resign themselves to living in a town that has disgraced itself and that people seek only to avoid.

posted by jr on Feb 17, 2015 at 08:20:36 am     #   6 people liked this

"Out with the old and failed. In with fresh blood so there can be a new start."

Now that's a hoot since his employer seems to have no problem throwing their support behind "old and failed" candidates time and time again.

posted by Foodie on Feb 17, 2015 at 08:52:27 am     #   2 people liked this

Folks. This is what columns and columnists do for a living. The more you discuss what a columnist writes, the better it is for the columnist - Whether you hate the writings or love them. This discussion might help Mr. Burris become syndicated.

A very brief search...

in a newspaper, what is the difference between an editorial and a column?

"A column is a personal opinion piece. It usually appears on the same page, in the same spot, on the same days of the week. It always has the columnist's name, and usually includes the columnist's picture. Unlike a news story, a columnist is free to give an opinion. A person who is a columnist usually has many years of experience covering the issues, or has a lot of expertise in them. They use their knowledge of the subject, and their contacts in the community, to write about a topic, and they often come to a conclusion. The reader is free to agree or disagree. There are also humor columnists, advice columnists, etc."

I'm sure Keith is crying all the way to the bank.

posted by paulhem on Feb 17, 2015 at 11:18:02 am     #   1 person liked this

It's ok to be an ass, as long as you're doing it to become a more widespread and better paid ass. Oh, that makes it ok. Thanks for the explanation.

posted by JoeyGee on Feb 17, 2015 at 11:42:17 am     #   6 people liked this

You are welcome.

posted by paulhem on Feb 17, 2015 at 12:12:33 pm     #  

I think some people confused Burris' opinion hit piece with "journalism" because it is so often impossible to tell what is editorial content and what is journalism in some Pulitzer award winning newspapers.
One certainly can't use the "front page" or "Op-ed" page rule of thumb, because so often the "pages of opinion" start on the front page above the fold.

posted by justread on Feb 17, 2015 at 01:30:23 pm     #   6 people liked this

Come on... it may be Keith's picture and his name but everybody who pays attention to what goes on in this town knows who's name is really on that article.

We have an important election coming up this year and I would seriously like for The Blade (John Block) not to pick our next mayor and council.

posted by SherryET on Feb 17, 2015 at 01:35:41 pm     #   5 people liked this

The worst part about the Ottawa Hills shooting is that ex-officer Thomas White is still free and has never spent any time in jail. White is completely unrepentant and exemplifies the attitude of Ottawa Hills residents regarding non-residents, or the great unwashed as we are commonly known.

posted by madjack on Feb 17, 2015 at 01:37:11 pm     #   7 people liked this

Mariner posted at 05:58:48 AM on Feb 16, 2015:

Thks for the how to tips. Make no claim to high levels of precision. Also tend to get laid back on the 7th day.

Glad to see you're getting laid

posted by bucknut on Feb 17, 2015 at 04:47:35 pm     #   2 people liked this

This discussion might help Mr. Burris become syndicated.

Put down the nitrous oxide...

posted by oldhometown on Feb 17, 2015 at 05:40:24 pm     #   7 people liked this

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QvT1wym97qo

This scene always reminds me of PaulHem's appearances here on Toledotalk.

posted by Dappling2 on Feb 17, 2015 at 07:46:17 pm     #   1 person liked this

I hate it when that happens!

posted by paulhem on Feb 18, 2015 at 01:42:13 pm     #   1 person liked this

I never had much of an opinion on red light cameras until yesterday when I got three notices from the City of Chicago Finance department. Looks like I was in a real rush on Feb 5, and got not one... not two.. but three red light / speeding cam tickets. $100 a pop. Not a pretty picture. Not sure if I should be madder at myself or the cameras. ;)

posted by upso on Feb 18, 2015 at 09:54:37 pm     #  

Ouch! Back down on the red bull's upso. Word is that Rahm Emanuel (O'Bama's boy) is going to bring back stockades and public flogging. Those guys should stay away from recent movie releases.

posted by Mariner on Feb 19, 2015 at 06:31:40 am     #  

upso posted at 09:54:37 PM on Feb 18, 2015:

I never had much of an opinion on red light cameras until yesterday when I got three notices from the City of Chicago Finance department. Looks like I was in a real rush on Feb 5, and got not one... not two.. but three red light / speeding cam tickets. $100 a pop. Not a pretty picture. Not sure if I should be madder at myself or the cameras. ;)

I have never ever received one.

I still think they are wrong. Screw robo-cams. Hire cops.

posted by justread on Feb 19, 2015 at 09:47:16 am     #   2 people liked this

Feb 19, 2015 Blade story

Toledo’s 2015 budget proposal expects $3.2 million in camera citation fines. City Finance Director George Sarantou said $1 million of that is anticipated to come from overdue fines.

The 2014 budget had also expected $3.2 million. The city collected slightly more than $2.2 million.

The city is [owed] $21 million in unpaid fines since the camera program began in 2006.

posted by jr on Feb 19, 2015 at 10:28:35 am     #  

All hail sanitized toll tax extortion.

posted by Mariner on Feb 19, 2015 at 10:56:07 am     #   2 people liked this

Too bad they cant do as well with collecting past due water and tax bills

posted by MIJeff on Feb 19, 2015 at 11:04:54 am     #   2 people liked this

I have not had a moving violation ticket since 1967 or any other type of ticket since I started driving.Last year I received a red light ticket for turning right on red.I believe according to the ticket I was traveling all of 2 MPH when I turned right.What bothered me was I was behind a Tanker truck that was also turning right.The light was green as I approached the intersection and could see it until the truck slowed way down and blocked my view as it turned right.When the truck finished it's right turn it was too late for me to react to the red light so I saw two flashes and knew then I was going to get a ticket for turning right on red and not stopping.I guess I should of waited until I could see the light before turning right.I believe if a police officer had seen what happened with the truck blocking my view he would not have even stopped me for a violation.I think these cameras are strictly a revenue making machine.If they were truly about safety they would increase the time of our yellow lights and also have a short delay of when the other light changes to green.These cameras do not prevent people from running lights or speeding.If they did, there would't be so many tickets issued.These cameras are set up physically to maximize the amount of revenue obtained by the city.I hope this new law stays on the books.

posted by buckeye278 on Feb 19, 2015 at 11:19:40 am     #   2 people liked this

We should sue Toledo for suing Ohio.

posted by justread on Feb 19, 2015 at 12:03:16 pm     #   1 person liked this

That would require an amicus curiae brief from lawyer J. Noble Daggett.

posted by Mariner on Feb 19, 2015 at 12:29:18 pm     #  

Lawyers are never brief.

posted by justread on Feb 19, 2015 at 12:34:40 pm     #  

jr posted at 08:08:37 AM on Feb 15, 2015:

From Burris's pathetic rant:

... a local policeman shot a dog named Moses.

From yesterday's Blade op-ed titled Ticket trap

... the officer shot the dog ...

JRB loves dogs. That's great. But this crusade against Woodville is demented journalism at best.

More from yesterday's op-ed:

Woodville officials are using speeding tickets primarily to raise revenue ...

As others have mentioned, that's what Toledo is doing with its gotcha traffic enforcement cameras. It has never been about safety with the cameras. The cameras provide a source of revenue that's budgeted by the city. Toledo doesn't want safe drivers. The city would have a budget hole to fill if everyone started driving safely in the camera areas.

The Village of Woodville has abused northwest Ohio motorists for far too long ...

So has Toledo with its cameras and especially with its f*cked up roads.

If the Blade truly wanted to help, it should focus all its energies on a Toledo issue. One single issue for 2015.

Fix the f*cking roads

You will do better in Toledo if the f*cking roads are fixed.

More from yesterday's op-ed:

If a boycott of the town’s businesses is needed finally to get the attention of its public officials, so be it.

It's definitely loony bin time for the Blade editorial board. A boycott? Who participates in the boycott campaign? Elmore residents?

What's lost on Burris and the other Blade writers who are engaged in this dog-shit journalism is how everyone else is laughing in mocking fashion at the Blade.

This, ummm, doesn't really have all that much to do with the 'Blade editorial board'....or Burris or 'other Blade writers'.

The 'board' here consists of a single member.

posted by McCaskey on Feb 19, 2015 at 01:05:02 pm     #  

justread posted at 12:34:40 PM on Feb 19, 2015:

Lawyers are never brief.

posted by Ace_Face on Feb 19, 2015 at 02:22:04 pm     #   3 people liked this

Great News for all you Driving Scofflaws out there. The city of Toledo now offers you an amnesty program that lets you pay two thirds of what you owe! That is a 33% discount!
http://www.toledonewsnow.com/story/28741842/city-of-toledo-to-begin-amnesty-program-for-delinquent-red-light-violations

As a side note. In two polls, one at the above place and one at the Blade, Close to 70% of the people here don't want the red light camera's at all. If this is true, why do we still have them? Isn't there something written somewhere about "the will of the people"?

posted by reggie on Apr 10, 2015 at 04:38:31 am     #  

It's taxation without representation. They won't let us vote, nor will they accept the state of Ohio trying to assist us in securing our rights.

Why? Because they can't balance the budget without the camera revenue, so they ignore our pleas.

posted by justread on Apr 10, 2015 at 06:16:52 am     #   4 people liked this

justread posted at 07:16:52 AM on Apr 10, 2015:

It's taxation without representation. They won't let us vote, nor will they accept the state of Ohio trying to assist us in securing our rights.

Why? Because they can't balance the budget without the camera revenue, so they ignore our pleas.

But it was supposed to be about safety of drivers. /sarcasm off

posted by MIJeff on Apr 10, 2015 at 09:40:10 am     #  

Makes one wonder how they balanced the budget before we had red light cameras. They will sue people who haven't paid their red light camera fines just like they say they will fine people who don't clear the snow off their sidewalks within 24 hours of a snowfall. Empty threats.

posted by Mike21 on Apr 10, 2015 at 10:01:32 am     #  

There has been a reduction in T-Bone type accidents. Ok. But not because of speed cameras in the middle of a block.

But how is Darwin supposed to work if we don't let a few idiots be naturally deselected once in a while.

And there has been a massive increase in rear-end collisions.

posted by justread on Apr 10, 2015 at 10:01:53 am     #  

"It's taxation without representation."

Nothing new for this town.

In the spring of 2007, Toledo city council 'endorsed' an illegal tax on Toledoans. It was a 7-5 vote. Five democrats voted against the illegal tax. All four republicans on council voted for the illegal tax. Allegedly, the republicans made some kind of deal with then-mayor Czarty.

In my previous paragraph, I placed the word "endorsed" in quotes because technically, I may be misleading the truth a smidgen.

Here's the rub. Council did not vote specifically on this illegal tax. That is, the illegal tax was not its own, separate resolution.

With the 7-5 vote, council approved the 2007 budget, which contained this illegal tax. Voting for the budget meant supporting the illegal tax, in my opinion. A sleazy but crafty move by city goobermint.

The five council members who voted against the illegal tax may not have been caring for us little peons. They were A-team democrats while Carty was a B-team democrat. I'm unsure if the five A-teamers voted against the illegal tax or voted against Carty.

Good times.

The city's code-name for this illegal tax was "refuse fee." This tax was placed on our water bill, and the money went to the general fund.

This illegal tax was suppose to last only for one year, but it didn't. What a shock. I think republican clowncilman and alleged financial guru, George Sarantou, said the city became too dependent upon the revenue. What a shock.

Mar 31, 2007 Blade story

The trash fee, which is expected to raise $2.9 million in 2007, expires on April 30, 2008.

Hah! Good one.

Eventually, this illegal tax was suppose to drop to zero for those who recycled, but it didn't.

The illegal tax cost less for those who recycled. This tax difference was to encourage more recycling in order to extend the life of our landfill.

The result: More people did recycle. And because too many people recycled, the city could not honor its promise to eliminate the tax.

My fellow rubes, obviously this illegal tax was never about recycling and helping the landfill. It was always about taking more money. Illegally.

In February 2008, Karen Shanahan sued Toledo over this illegal tax.

In effect, the very character and nature of the refuse fee amounts to a property tax. Furthermore, the refuse fee was created by administrative fiat. And, at no point was it approved by City Council or the voters of the City of Toledo.

Viewed broadly, the purpose of this case is to establish that the City of Toledo has taxed the property owners outside of its own limitations. Moreover, the City of Toledo has taxed the property owners outside of the limitations set forth in Ohio's Constitution and the statutes of the State of Ohio.

A citizen sued the city over an illegal tax. How do you think that turned out?

And now the city plans to sue citizens (the chronic offenders) who have unpaid traffic enforcement camera fines.

It's good to be the king.

City government uses altruistic reasons as schemes to scam us. Everyone knows that the traffic enforcement cameras are about taking money. It's not about safety.

Maybe the city should place the traffic enforcement fines on water bills.

If Toledo government truly cared about safety, then they would ensure that our roads were in good condition.

Many of our roadways are in such ramshackle condition, that drivers are swerving and braking hard to avoid craters. And these maneuvers sometimes occur in traffic. I've had to swerve from drivers who swerved to avoid our road craters.


On a sidenote, if the city is concerned about downtown Toledo's image, then at the very least, the city should repair, not patch, but truly repair a couple of the main entryways into downtown Toledo. If it's a state responsibility, then the city should push hard for help.

It's stunningly embarrassing how bad these roads are. When driving north on I-75 and exiting at the Downtown off-ramp, you are in for a bone-jarring, vehicle-rattling ride up to the first traffic light.

When driving south on I-75 and exiting at the Washington St. off-ramp to enter downtown Toledo, you get the same glorious result up to Washington St. traffic light.

I-75 is sort of a major road. Visitors to downtown Toledo should not be greeted immediately by these two short, deplorable entrances.

But hey, some chicken is probably making too much noise, therefore we need to address that issue immediately.

posted by jr on Apr 10, 2015 at 01:59:40 pm     #   5 people liked this

All of the above will continue as long as the low information crowd is the majority that show up at the polls.

posted by Foodie on Apr 10, 2015 at 03:03:57 pm     #   2 people liked this

Wow, Jr, you bring up a lot of facts that I forgot about. But isn't that what politicians count on ..... voters with bad memories? We, the citizens of Toledo are a bunch of saps. We always let a tiny fraction of people get into power and force their agenda on us. We have no say. Home Rule. What exactly does that mean? How can the citizens get a "law" passed that says any taxes or fee's have to be voted on by the citizens? Pipe dream.

Foodie, I hear you but who in the hell do you vote for that isn't on the take somehow. It seems in the last thirty years we don't vote for the best candidate. We end up voting for the lesser of two evils. I moved to Toledo 35 years ago. Man has it gone down hill.
How sad. :(

posted by reggie on Apr 11, 2015 at 06:33:44 am     #  

To get stuff like that, it needs to get put into the cities charter I believe.

posted by MIJeff on Apr 11, 2015 at 07:18:32 am     #  

One more swipe at Toledo's illegal tax/refuse fee:

Mar 31, 2007 Toledo Blade story when it all began:

A divided Toledo City Council yesterday [Mar 30, 2007] adopted a 2007 budget that establishes a $5.50 monthly trash collection fee $3 for those who recycle.

The trash fee, which is expected to raise $2.9 million in 2007, expires on April 30, 2008.


Feb 16, 2008 Toledo Blade story titled Toledo officials say canceling trash fee may be too costly

An idea to charge Toledo residents who don't recycle a higher trash fee and nothing for those who do recycle at the curbside is admirable, but may create a budget crunch, Bill Franklin, the city's director of public service, told a council committee yesterday.

"My problem is if everyone signs up [to pay] zero, we are getting zero revenue," Mr. Franklin said during a committee of the whole meeting.

Councilman George Sarantou acknowledged that the idea could increase recycling. "If the money doesn't come in because everyone is recycling, then you have a $4.8 million problem," Mr. Sarantou said.

Allegedly, republicans like Sarantou voted for Carty's illegal tax because the deal was that it would only be implemented for one year. But when the illegal tax brings in that much revenue, it's hard to say no.


Mar 28, 2008 Toledo Blade story :

Toledo City Council on Tuesday decided by an 8-4 vote to increase the city's trash collection fee to $7 a month for those who don't recycle and $2 a month for those who do.

The refuse fee will increase again on May 1, 2009, to $8.50 a month for those who don't recycle and drop to $1 for those who do.

Beginning May 1, 2010, the fee will increase again to $10 a month for those who don't recycle, and drop to zero for those who participate in recycling.


You can find a ton of refuse fee stories at the Toledo Blade, mainly between 2007 and 2012.


Current status of the one-year illegal tax that was meant to generate $2.9 million in 2007 but was extended beyond one year with the intention of charging recyclers zero dollars.

General Fund Revenue and Other Sources

Refuse collection fees total $8,800,000 for 2015.

Refuse collection revenue comes from a fee billed to citizens for collection services provided through Lucas County Solid Waste Management.

Refuse fees are unchanged from 2014. Regular/recycle customers pay $8.95 monthly, while homestead customers pay $5.00.

I assume that all $8.8 million are given to the Lucas County Solid Waste Management.

posted by jr on Apr 11, 2015 at 08:36:52 am     #  

How do you get jr's information out to the lo information voters at least two weeks before we vote in November? Not everyone reads TT. Any TTers interested in forming a committee to somehow sway this year's election?

posted by SherryET on Apr 11, 2015 at 09:15:44 am     #  

At about $9 million per year, that refuse fee is going nowhere. The only change would be an increase.

I don't know if it's possible to determine how much of this year's $8.8 million of refuse fee money is used by the county for Toledo's garbage pickup, and how much goes into Toledo's general fund for whatever usage.

I also wonder what happened to the taxpayer money that actually paid for our garbage pickup when the city collected our trash. We paid to have our trash collected long before the so-called refuse fee was contrived.

In my previous comment, I forgot to list the Blade stories that showed why the refuse fee was implemented. The obvious reason was to create a revenue stream to fix budget holes that were created by incompetent politicians. But the rationale spewed by officials to the public was to extend the life our beloved landfill.

Blade stories, published about a month before the one-year tax was set to expire:

Councilman D. Michael Collins, author of the proposed ordinance, said the incentive will increase recycling and thereby extend the life of the city's landfill on Hoffman Road.

The landfill has an expected remaining life of about 27 years. Building a new landfill would cost about $80 million.

Additionally, [Franklin] said people could pledge to recycle, but not actually do so - which subverts the goal of extending the life of the city's landfill on Hoffman Road.

When Mike Bell was mayor, the city sold or tried to sell precious landfill space to private haulers, which would be another revenue stream. But what happened to the concern about the lifespan of our landfill?

In February 2008, Franklin made it very obvious that the real intention of the refuse fee was as a tax revenue stream.

"My problem is if everyone signs up [to pay] zero, we are getting zero revenue," Mr. Franklin said during a committee of the whole meeting.

It's just like with the traffic enforcement cameras. The goal should be to receive zero money from the cameras because that would mean safe driving, which we are told is the reason for the cameras.

For all the good changes that have occurred in Toledo over the past several years, when the city has grown dependent upon an illegal tax, traffic camera money, and now a casino, it's not a good sign for the long-term health of the city.

The refuse fee debacle was or still is a shining example of Toledo government abuse and lies. It's a reason to distrust local officials and to always be skeptical of their rhetoric. Just like with the alleged water crisis last August.

Forget voting. That accomplishes nothing. Involvement with local orgs that actually help people will accomplish more. And many neighborhoods in the city need help. We're currently focused on an area in South Toledo.

posted by jr on Apr 11, 2015 at 12:07:50 pm     #  

Forget voting. That accomplishes nothing.

Given the voter turnout stats you have posted (at least for mayoral years), it appears the vast majority of eligible voters agrees with you.

1/3 off is "amnesty?" Fuck you, Toledo. 10 cents on the dollar, , maybe, with no points or other mark on driving record. And then some serious reforms on how these things operate or end the whole thing. Otherwise, good luck in court. See you in 30 years.

posted by oldhometown on Apr 11, 2015 at 12:38:34 pm     #   1 person liked this

Sue the city for continuing an illegal tax?

posted by MIJeff on Apr 11, 2015 at 02:58:17 pm     #  

I see the city got a collection agency to collect these fines. This collection agency appears to have offices all over the country. Wonder what their cut will be. Will they be able to screw people's credit rating if they don't pay the extortion fee their asking? Its amazing how people\companies can make money off of other people by doing nothing but providing a "service" to other people\companies\municipalities that do and produce nothing.
Taxpayers have been fleeced forever.

posted by reggie on Apr 12, 2015 at 08:29:09 am     #  

I can answer some of the historical questions about the refuse fee.

It was created with the explicit purpose of generating revenue for the city. The 3/4 percent tax levy was originally designed to fund this along with other city services. But with a shrinking tax base, that was no longer the case.

Bill Franklin made it a priority to extend the life of the Hoffman Road landfill. That was why he put a premium on recycling. I do recall there were many internal debates as to how to verify if a person was or was not recycling. During my tenure with the city, no viable plan was developed.

Apparently, the Bell administration had different priorities for Hoffman Road. That may be one of the key reasons Franklin was not retained by Bell.

posted by MemyselfandI on Apr 12, 2015 at 02:45:43 pm     #  

Since the amnesty program has begun to collect red light camera fines, over $41k has been collected - about 4 times the usual collection rate. Over $13 million still remains delinquent.

posted by Mike21 on Apr 28, 2015 at 09:28:55 am     #  

Haven't heard anything about the Red Light Camera's in over four months. Is the courts still deciding who wins this thing?

posted by reggie on Sep 05, 2015 at 04:39:38 am     #  

Pardon the necromancy. I saw this and thought it might add to the discussion.
http://independentcollegian.com/2016/03/16/news/caught-on-cam-traffic-camera-clocks-more-violations-than-any-in-city/

posted by estioney on Mar 18, 2016 at 10:42:01 am     #  

And then there's this

posted by Foodie on Feb 09, 2017 at 03:55:28 pm     #  

Awesome!! If and when Toledo is forced to do something similar. Where will the money come from?? IOU'S??

posted by FranklinT on Feb 09, 2017 at 04:11:36 pm     #  

Great find Foodie!!

posted by FranklinT on Feb 09, 2017 at 04:15:05 pm     #  

I learned the Ohio Supreme Court will be revisiting the issue next week as it hears an appeal filed by Dayton.

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2017/01/fate_of_state_limits_on_use_of.html

Toledo is not party to the appeal, but did submit a brief supporting Dayton's position. Other Ohio cities did the same.

http://www.supremecourt.ohio.gov/Clerk/ecms/#/caseinfo/2015/1549

I'm looking now to see how much Toledo made on the cameras since they were declared illegal in 2014??? I suspect it would be very challenging for the city to refund that amount.

Should be interesting.

posted by jimavolt on Feb 09, 2017 at 06:57:37 pm     #   1 person liked this

I couldn't find the amounts collected but found the budgeted income from the red light cameras for 2015, 2016 & 2017. Budgeted income was $3,200,000, $2,300,000 and $2,000,000 respectively.

http://toledo.oh.gov/services/finance/budget/

The 2017 proposed budget states: "Revenue received from red light and speed violations is estimated at $4,300,000 for 2017. Of this total, $2,000,000 is anticipated from stationary cameras and $2,300,000 is anticipated from hand-held cameras. Revenue from court costs and fines is expected to decrease in 2017 as a result of continued use of the Ohio Revised Code to charge arrested" persons.

Earlier years budgets were 100% from the hopefully illegal stationary cameras.

This could get interesting . . .

posted by jimavolt on Feb 09, 2017 at 07:38:25 pm     #   1 person liked this

My question here is that the company that provides these cameras has been convicted of bribing public officials in multiple cities in Ohio and other states as well, and yet none of our media here has seem to do any investigative journalism on this.

posted by In_vin_veritas on Feb 09, 2017 at 10:07:47 pm     #  

The "media" in this town? Now there's a sad state of affairs.

So many issues that could use the light of day shined upon them. But the collective backbone of the TV and print "media" in this city is that of a Jellyfish.

Unless, of course, you run a restaurant and have allowed the ice machine scoop to touch something other than ice.

posted by Foodie on Feb 10, 2017 at 12:33:00 am     #   4 people liked this

Well, this is an interesting development...looks like we now have a new deficit line item to add to the budget....
http://jalopnik.com/an-ohio-town-made-millions-from-speed-cameras-but-now-i-1792482681

posted by breeman on Feb 17, 2017 at 05:20:33 pm     #  

Shady is as shady does. If they had let us vote on these, they would have all the plausibility they need. But the city shoved this down our throats with no representation. Recall anyone still on council who creates a multi-million liability while we scream for a vote on it.

posted by justread on Feb 17, 2017 at 05:39:36 pm     #  

Plausible deniability. Crappy auto co-writer.

posted by justread on Feb 17, 2017 at 05:40:34 pm     #