Toledo Talk

West Toledo Krogers development conversation

I'll admit, I hadn't put too much thought into the debate on whether or not the Notre Dame Sisters should allow Kroger to develop on their property. I appreciate the love for the trees and green space, and personally value seeing it as a I drive by. That said, I've got no skin in the game.

This past week I was invited to join this FB group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/PreserveMonroeSecorCampus/

I appreciate the passion, and totally get where they are coming from. I do think that part of town is too dense and poorly planed. I do think Kroger could get away with redeveloping their currently property. Regardless, there are clearly multiple sides and voices in this argument.

Editorial from the nuns: http://www.toledoblade.com/Opinion/2015/07/05/Kroger-sale-is-best-for-Sisters-of-Notre-Dame-and-the-Toledo-community.html

Letter to editor from the nuns:
http://www.toledoblade.com/Letters-to-the-Editor/2015/07/04/Kroger-proposal-is-the-best-alternative.html

What are your thoughts on this? Are you FOR Krogers taking over part of the Nun's campus, or are you AGAINST it? For both sides, I'm curious WHY you feel that way.

created by upso on Jul 12, 2015 at 04:40:31 pm     Business     Comments: 163

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Krogers has left 3 abandoned buildings with in a couple of miles of me in the last couple of years and now they want to simple move their store across the street in this location, strip one of the last few green spaces on that end of town and leave another abandon eye sore in the wake.

I'm pushing for a no vote by council.

posted by SensorG on Jul 12, 2015 at 05:08:39 pm     #   10 people liked this

Let me start by disclosing I have a deep personal connection to the SND - by children have attended a sponsored school for 14 years, and my daughter will attend NDA this fall and I currently serve on the board of a sponsored institution. I value the contribution they have made to my family and this community.

With that said, I firmly support the Sister's decision to sell to Kroger. It is not up to the community to determine the highest and best use, it is up to the owners. The sisters could move to their new facility in Whitehouse (that should be done next year), and then tear down every last one of those trees and the 'historical' building, and neighbors couldn't say a word. To say the city needs to preseve the trees and the building is putting power on the city that it does not have.

At least Kroger's has come forward with a site plan and proposal. The sisters could ask for a zoning change on their own, with no site plan, and it would be hard to turn that down.

As a future NDA student's parent, I do not fear for my child's safety with a Kroger on an adjacent lot anymore than I do with the store across the street. And perhaps the girls wouldn't have to cross Sylvania Ave. for coffee before and after school if Kroger's is right next door.

posted by MsArcher on Jul 12, 2015 at 08:07:21 pm     #   4 people liked this

I completely agree MrsArcher.

posted by gunz1 on Jul 12, 2015 at 08:16:05 pm     #  

I really can't imagine this being allowed to happen, leaving an empty store and a vast amount of concrete and blacktop sprouting weeds just across from their new store, after having removed beautiful trees and green space and a wonderful elementary school that sits in it's midst. This school still exists as the Discovery Academy. It is a treasure in Toledo, and it's serene location in this last oasis in W. Toledo enables these young city children an opportunity to hear the birds sing and appreciate a small slice of nature where they learn.
I also hope for a no vote by council.

posted by oldmom on Jul 12, 2015 at 08:22:19 pm     #   5 people liked this

Maybe the city could demand Kroger put a condition on the new place that the old be removed and turned into a grove of some sort. You know kroger will stop just about anything that could possibly compete with them in the old location.

posted by MIJeff on Jul 12, 2015 at 10:42:57 pm     #  

With regards to the comment about Kroger leaving vacant buildings - more than likely those buildings were all leases, which means it is the duty of the owner of the property to fill those spaces not Kroger. If Kroger does in fact own those buildings then yes they do need to continue upkeep and maintenance on the buildings but I suspect that all the buildings they've been leaving are leased spaces.

posted by douglasadietz on Jul 12, 2015 at 10:59:37 pm     #   2 people liked this

I generally don't care about the outcome of this topic, but Kroger can stop building stores the size of WalMart any time. Annoying.

Must work for them...doesn't mean I have to like 'em though...

posted by oldhometown on Jul 13, 2015 at 06:09:37 am     #   1 person liked this

I don't really care if a "grocery" store outlives a thirty year old site plan. But I think if we go back and change zoning and long-term use plans for every project, the end result is like having no zoning at all.

posted by justread on Jul 13, 2015 at 07:58:07 am     #   4 people liked this

I agree that this area is already heavily developed, adding more will certainly not help...I'm certain we will end up with more concrete barriers.

Interestingly I just checked the city maps, this property is zoned residential, so it will require the city to re-zone this in order to permit commercial development of any kind. (Parcel 22-16577 Owned by Sisters of Notre Dam, Areis zoning code RS9, Toledo zoning Map 78, Zoned R1) According to all this it is acceptable for single family homes, libraries, religious assemblies, schools, and day care center type of development, but not commercial.

Personally would NOT like to see this happen, SensorG has a great point that this sort of move leaves empty shells laying around for years and causes blight. Why not take over the old Food Town location on Secor that has been empty for years, they could have the whole center (except where QQ's is located...that has to stay....or move closer to my house)? I think the city could use a park in this area...no greenspace around for quite a distance.

posted by breeman on Jul 13, 2015 at 09:05:54 am     #  

For me a couple of things need to happen in order for them to be able to take that parcel of land. Full disclosure, I work on Executive Parkway and don't live in Toledo proper. First, the city would need to widen Secor from Central to Sylvania. In the afternoons, backups are terrible during that stretch and turning left from Executive to Secor becomes almost impossible. Adding another hotel and soon Whole Foods will only increase traffic on this stretch. I personally think it needs to be 6 lanes across, be divided by a median and then have several turn lanes onto I475 and Executive. I would make Kroger pay for at least part of these upgrades. Next, I would require Kroger to purchase land elsewhere to plant trees and make it into greenspace somewhere close (If there is any?). If not close, somewhere in the community to replace the greenspace and replant 2 trees for every one they take down.

Just idle my thoughts...

posted by avinsurer on Jul 13, 2015 at 10:02:24 am     #  

Just got this message on Facebook about the issue:

“ I can't post on Toledo Talk due to time lag requirements for new members but I want to comment on ur forum. What's bring missed is the SND debate is over the petition to rezone a residential site for regional commercial use. If this were a purchase agreement for residential development on this property there would be no need for such large spread public concern. But this isn't a homeowner just looking to sell their house to another homeowner. This is a seller who has every right to sell their property as zoned with few grounds for anyone to contest it.

However Kroger's purchase agreement with the SND is based on the need for city approval to rezone this site for regional commercial (RC) development. While that sounds like no big deal to most the ramifications of RC zoning is what is the visual up and down Monroe St past Sylvania straight down both past the mall and pretty much everywhere there's big retail throughout Toledo.
You could argue the aesthetics of saving this campus but then ur considered just a tree hugger but unless ur Ted Nugent it's hard to argue that the natural beauty of that corner in not a rare Toledo Gem.

And this is WHY there are zoning laws to prevent any old type of development on land not already zoned for that specific use regardless of the owner or proposed buyer. No different then the reason for zoning codes so people can't legally park in their front lawn or why you don’t see vinyl siding in the Old West End.

The Preserve NDA Campus group is pro everyone in this cause. We respect and appreciate the SND and their heartfelt need to sell their land, we support Kroger development on a site already zoned commercial like the current site they're on. Kroger has rolled out awesome 2story stores in other markets to fit with the confines of the community. How about that for Toledo? Kroger may think we're a cheap date but Toledo deserves more than a prototype 123,000 sq ft marketplace store. That's equivalent to THREE football fields!!!

And more than anything we're PRO Toledo!!! Same as the Plan Commission has recommended 2x now, this zoning request is too intense for a site that also houses NDA (700 girls), a daycare with 60+ kids, the leased space of Discovery Charter school and is in close proximity to Christ the King School and the Lincolnshire and Harvest neighborhoods. This zoning is incompatible the parcel excluded from this sale and goes against the urban planning vision of a sustainable Toledo that benefits all.

We firmly support a NO vote for regional commercial zoning of this site and an alternative development plan that would provide a market value sale for the SND. There are solutions that can benefit all parties here but all will be a mute point if RC zoning is approved.

There's real development interest in preserving this campus to make it into senior and assisted living that would require no zoning change and would preserve the integrity of the Provincial House and its majestic park-like setting. Why has this not been talked about as a viable offer placed on the table? We've heard sound bites but no real explanation why this option was dismissed. Neighborhoods fail when cash offers supersede the overall greater good of the community. We are not in support of this zoning request to flip the SND campus.
Stay strong for Toledo and strong for a better solution!

If you'd please post on my behalf it would be much appreciated. I just wanted to clarify the layers of this perplexing issue.

~ Kathy Crawford ”

posted by upso on Jul 13, 2015 at 03:34:16 pm     #   10 people liked this

^pretty solid viewpoint.

posted by ahmahler on Jul 13, 2015 at 03:56:10 pm     #  

whoops, one typo:

" ...just noticed a more important typo 4th from last paragraph down where I say we strongly support a NO vote but the omitted the word "support" an alternative development plan. Could u please amend that so it's no to zoning but support of alternative development. "

posted by upso on Jul 13, 2015 at 03:59:24 pm     #  

ahmahler posted at 03:56:10 PM on Jul 13, 2015:

^pretty solid viewpoint.

Yes. Which is why there is no need to do this:

"123,000 is equivalent to THREE football fields."

Fact check: A football field is 360×160. That's 57,600 square feet. Three times 57,600 is 172,800.

It is equivalent to 49,800, or almost one full football field LESS than THREE football fields.

Don't overstate the size of something by nearly 50% to drum up more emotional reaction to the ENORMITY if you want to have a really solid viewpoint.

posted by justread on Jul 13, 2015 at 04:22:38 pm     #   5 people liked this

How do they know 'there is real development interest'. How do they know that a nursing home facility would pay as much as Kroger has offered?

posted by MsArcher on Jul 13, 2015 at 04:30:00 pm     #   1 person liked this

big money in housing those waiting to die

posted by MIJeff on Jul 13, 2015 at 04:42:46 pm     #  

I think maybe "UR" just really proud that you can immediately identify the inaccuracy of the dimensions of a football field.

posted by ahmahler on Jul 13, 2015 at 04:51:01 pm     #   6 people liked this

MIJeff posted at 04:42:46 PM on Jul 13, 2015:

big money in housing those waiting to die

Yes there is big money in it, but is that money in Toledo? What's the last nursing home or senior complex that was built in Toledo?

posted by MsArcher on Jul 13, 2015 at 05:11:39 pm     #  

I have no feelings one way or the other on this issue. However I do have a really hard time taking seriously anybody that types out their passionate message using the same dialect as a 14 year old.

posted by dell_diva on Jul 13, 2015 at 05:33:12 pm     #   5 people liked this

MrsArcher posted at 05:11:39 PM on Jul 13, 2015:
MIJeff posted at 04:42:46 PM on Jul 13, 2015:

big money in housing those waiting to die

Yes there is big money in it, but is that money in Toledo? What's the last nursing home or senior complex that was built in Toledo?

Genesis Retirement Village has a waiting list...

posted by SensorG on Jul 13, 2015 at 05:37:54 pm     #  

ahmahler posted at 04:51:01 PM on Jul 13, 2015:

I think maybe "UR" just really proud that you can immediately identify the inaccuracy of the dimensions of a football field.

I painted one once. That will do it to you.

posted by justread on Jul 13, 2015 at 06:27:26 pm     #  

I'm totally against it. That is a very bad intersection traffic wise, and once they move you will have the old Kroger store sitting there empty. Look at all the old grocery stores that have sat empty for years. Giant Eagle in Sylvania is still sitting there. I read the article by the sisters of Notre Dame and understand their plight, but underneath I think they just want the money.

posted by trixanne on Jul 13, 2015 at 06:57:53 pm     #  

trixanne posted at 06:57:53 PM on Jul 13, 2015:

I'm totally against it. That is a very bad intersection traffic wise, and once they move you will have the old Kroger store sitting there empty. Look at all the old grocery stores that have sat empty for years. Giant Eagle in Sylvania is still sitting there. I read the article by the sisters of Notre Dame and understand their plight, but underneath I think they just want the money.

Yeah, if you're looking for a perfect example of greed you need look no further than your local nunnery.

posted by dell_diva on Jul 13, 2015 at 07:33:03 pm     #   3 people liked this

This is the Kroger that is going to move next to the girls school and daycare correct?

http://toledotalk.com/cgi-bin/tt.pl/article/185262/Shooting_at_Kroger_----MonroeSecor

posted by SensorG on Jul 13, 2015 at 07:59:44 pm     #  

haha, yup

posted by upso on Jul 13, 2015 at 09:01:04 pm     #   1 person liked this

The Westgate – Franklin Park area is the retail hub of the city. Ohio-based Kroger has spent tens of millions on new local stores and deserves to maintain a presence that area. The old store is outdated and an occasional trouble spot for crime. New Krogers are being built mostly in the fringe areas (Lambertville, Waterville, Maumee, Holland, Perrysburg, Sylvania & King, Point Place). This is an opportunity for an established part of Toledo to get a modern store and some welcome reinvestment. Kroger also needs this store to stay competitive with the upscale grocers nearby.

Opponents are correct that it’s a large development which will have an impact on the landscape. It’s uncommon to have a patch of woods on a major commercial thoroughfare. I am all for preserving trees and it’s a shame to lose them, but have a look at the surrounding neighborhoods: Washington, Deveaux, Old Orchard, Ottawa Hills… they are covered in mature trees that will likely be there for a long time. We’ll be giving up a few (dozen) in order to gain an amenity for local residents. From the site plan, Kroger seems to be making an effort to install landscaping along Secor and Monroe. As for type and scale, the new store fits in fine with the entire commercial strips of both Monroe and Secor. Would detractors prefer it be built over the Lincolnshire pool?

Increased traffic. Probably, but that’s happening anyway as Whole Foods goes in, more people shop in the area, and when the old Food Town eventually gets redeveloped. It’s a busy part of town. People should expect traffic. Traffic here still pales in comparison to many cities. Spend some time in Manhattan or parts of Detroit then talk about the three short blocks from Monroe & Secor to Westgate.

A new empty big box? I wouldn’t worry about it. Unlike the old Food Town, the current Kroger sits on a prime corner. The daily car count at that intersection has to be high – not to mention it backs up to an interstate exit. I’d put money on the old store being razed and redeveloped within two years. Probably an Art Van.

The sisters. It sounds like selling the property will be a major boost in helping them relocate and adjust for the future. I say let progress happen.

posted by mixman on Jul 14, 2015 at 04:28:30 am     #   3 people liked this

i am toledo born and catholic educated... i have sisters, and wife, and neices and cousins who attended NDA as well as the others catholic high schools.

1 - it is not only up to NDA nuns to determine the highest and best use of the property. the city and its departments clearly have a legal right to define how its zoning. NDA or any buyer has a right to any use within the approved zoning.

2 - i am a little dismayed that a catholic church group is talking about maximizing the value of anything.... that is not their mission statement. if they leave it should be by selling to a use that is most appropriate for the community... hell maybe even promote some kind of social justice rather than cater to commericial interests.

the nuns were frankly very difficult to deal with for the city to get the turn lane put in several years ago in order to move traffic move effectively and more safely....

3 - the "nun's property" is really the property of all of those, all of us, who have paid tuition and made donations to the school over the decades. the nuns are the stwards of our investment in the church and our community. i understand changing demographics and a desire to go where there is a growing community, but in their wake as they leave, they have an obligation to make things as good as possible for those who remain with the understanding that those who live and lived in and around NDA high school helped to build that campus.

4 - and finally, make no mistake, this is prologue to NDA high school closing and opening a new campus eventually out in whitehouse/monclova. having both catholic girls schools within a mile of each othe doesnt serve the current demographics... it did for a short time, but no more. the city and the plan commission may as well study the entire property and have a plan in place. if ND nuns "succeed" in forcing this zone change that would allow the sale to kroger - and frankly that is hard to call a success for anyone except the commerical interests - the high school property will go through the same process in a relatively short time

posted by enjoyeverysandwich on Jul 14, 2015 at 07:56:05 am     #   10 people liked this

I can see a lot of people are appreciating the nobility of EES's post. I have a different viewpoint on some of the things he mentions:

1.) it is not only up to NDA nuns to determine the highest and best use of the property. the city and its departments clearly have a legal right to define how its zoning. NDA or any buyer has a right to any use within the approved zoning.

True. Do you not think a large company like Kroger would have done some due diligence to ensure that current zoning or a zoning change would not be an issue?

I don't think your flag is planted on solid ground here. Zoning can change in an instant. Doesn't mean much and is certainly not an obstacle in most cases.

2.) i am a little dismayed that a catholic church group is talking about maximizing the value of anything.... that is not their mission statement. if they leave it should be by selling to a use that is most appropriate for the community... hell maybe even promote some kind of social justice rather than cater to commericial interests.

Umm, are you going to be footing the bill for the nuns care and housing for the next ___ years? How can "the church" NOT maximize value of its assets? You think the diocese (and higher) bureaucracy ***isn't*** constantly talking money and assets and what they can do to continue cash flow into the organization? A parish and associated Catholic charities do not get funded all through donations, "fish fry fridays", and prayers...it is through maximizing assets like any business.

Perhaps a "social justice" use was considered. We don't know. The determination was made that that was not what would help fund care for the sisters. Their decision, not yours.

At what point did "commercial interest" seeming become synonymous with (basically) "evil money-grubbing horrible special interest." The way most "commercial interests" survive is by helping people procure goods and services at a cost that they can afford in the competitive marketplace. NDA is selling to Kroger, not an abortion mill or Larry Flynt or some company that is going to inject poison into the ground and air.

Shit, all we ever hear about is how major supermarket and drug store chains won't open in some places (like the inner city) and they're called bastards (and worse) for those decisions. Here, we have a supermarket chain begging to build something, creating construction jobs, more in-store jobs/opportunities, etc., and the prevailing sentiment is "screw you, we want the forest." Damned if you do, damned if you don't I guess...

3.) the "nun's property" is really the property of all of those, all of us, who have paid tuition and made donations to the school over the decades. the nuns are the stwards of our investment in the church and our community. i understand changing demographics and a desire to go where there is a growing community, but in their wake as they leave, they have an obligation to make things as good as possible for those who remain with the understanding that those who live and lived in and around NDA high school helped to build that campus.

Seriously--the "you owe me/us" argument? The nuns owe you something at fits into your worldview because you paid tuition to the school? You are joking right.

Oh...probably not, so here goes. First, your contributions were not an "investment." They were either (a) payment for services rendered (like tuition) or (b) a donation to further the mission of the church, the school, lawn maintenance ***at that time***. They owe you squat. Unless you are somehow directly footing the bill for the long term care of the nuns, of course. Then they'll owe you.

It's the same sorry argument you hear when sports teams move from their city--"but but but I INVESTED in you and went to your games and bought your merchandise...you OWE me for my loyalty." No they don't. And the sisters aren't selling the property for a nuclear waste dump--it's a Kroger.

4.) and finally, make no mistake, this is prologue to NDA high school closing and opening a new campus eventually out in whitehouse/monclova. having both catholic girls schools within a mile of each othe doesnt serve the current demographics... it did for a short time, but no more. the city and the plan commission may as well study the entire property and have a plan in place.

Maybe. The suburbs would be an absolute goldmine for NDA. See previous comments about "maximizing assets" in the Church.

Don't agree? OK, then then whole place can fold, school, convent, the whole thing. Ride the "social justice" train down to zero bucks. The nuns can remain in an old building with tons of maintenance costs, the land can go to auction, and Kroger (or another developer) can buy it for 30 cents on the dollar of what is being offered now and put up another strip mall with 10 empty store fronts, a Subway, and a nail salon. Cause dammit, no Kroger.

posted by oldhometown on Jul 14, 2015 at 07:58:05 pm     #   9 people liked this

Thansk, OHT, I read EES's post hours ago but have been on my phone and didn't want to type the requisite mini-rant in response on that little keyboard. You are spot-on in responding.

I don't know the specific demographics of NDA students, but there is just no freakin' way building a new high school in the 'burbs is in the cards, unless they want to jack up tuition higher than MVCDS. Just not happening. If it was that viable, St. John's would have gone there, but they reeled in their co-ed plans shortly after stating the plan was a go.
I don't think people realize that their tuition only covers a percentage of the cost of educating their children, usually somewhere between 50% and 80%, the rest comes from in-kind donations, fundraising and out-and-out cash support from sponsoring institutions. No way would current tuition rates support a new building.

These nuns have devoted their LIVES to educating our kids, catholic and non-catholic alike. I have seen not just the nuns' dedication, but the teachers and other staff as well. To suggest that they are not putting safety and security of their students first is offensive, and I don't use that term lightly.

posted by MsArcher on Jul 14, 2015 at 08:30:31 pm     #   6 people liked this

hey OHT...

yes, zoing can and does change all the time. i would suggest that this is a significant problem way too often in toledo. our politicians are way too eager to forgo good planning and change zoning and ignore plans staff and the community researched and developed and the pols adopted... usually because the construction unions pressure. cities that succeed do so because they stick to plans. and developers usually appreciate this because they know for certain what the rules are and that some other developer is not going to get favorable treatment.

i have no problem at all and in fact see capitalism and commercial interests and competition fundamental to our country... when they dont have undue influence on our politicians. part of the politicians role is to ensure a level playing field, not bias it. but commercial interests and religious institutions have completely different roles and missions in our society and in fact government is a third completely different role.

kroger is going to build something somewhere so the short term construction jobs are a wash whether it is built here or there. there will be no new grocery store jobs... toledoans are not going to start buying more food... merely change where they buy it perhaps. if kroger gets more business some other store will close... and that is fine that is the marketplace. but the net result is zero job growth.

if you dont see the difference between a for-profit sports team and a religious institution where people have been paying tuition and contributing to capital campaigns, endowment funds, and yes even retirement funds, then no, we may never fundamentally agree on this. and if the nuns see the western suburbs as a "goldmine" rather than a need and an opportunity to serve the catholic community, remove their non-profit status, pay the nuns a competitive wage and start competing with the other private for profit schools... it is no longer the nuns that taught me and they are no longer the schools i grew up with.... yep, admittedly pollyanna but essential to their mission

posted by enjoyeverysandwich on Jul 15, 2015 at 08:53:40 am     #   3 people liked this

pay the nuns a competitive wage

This just shows that you don't know what goes on with in the budgets of catholic institutions.

posted by MsArcher on Jul 15, 2015 at 09:21:14 am     #  

unsure what you are saying... did you read the context of what i wrote there ?

posted by enjoyeverysandwich on Jul 15, 2015 at 09:28:21 am     #   2 people liked this

MrsArcher posted at 09:21:14 AM on Jul 15, 2015:

pay the nuns a competitive wage

This just shows that you don't know what goes on with in the budgets of catholic institutions.

There are Catholic institutions, and then there are institutions made up of Catholics. Women religious and their independent corporation boards would be the latter, not the former.

posted by justread on Jul 15, 2015 at 10:23:42 am     #  

yes... true justread. but i am trying to understand what point of mine that refutes or new point that makes.

OHT had suggested the economic model as the reason to go to monclova... and while i am sure he meant that as much tongue in cheek along with the religious mission, his continued emphasis of the economics does prompt a response.

the nuns have expenses for food shelter and a certain level of comfort and convenience. and lets face it, there are any number of lay teachers at catholic schools who sacrifice income by passing up work at other higher paying institutions.

if the nuns are primarily working on the economic model, let them compete with mvcd and westside montesori and see what tuition really would have to be set at if those nuns and teachers were not giving the religious order a huge economic gift along with tuition and other donations.

but if you admit they operate on something more than just the economic model, then in my mind they owe the community in which they have worked for the last however many years something more than just at this moment and this instance an economic model response

posted by enjoyeverysandwich on Jul 15, 2015 at 10:54:41 am     #  

I think the economic model comes into play for a lot of seniors facing retirement and health care costs. I understand that the sisters no longer desire to operate the provincial center for a variety of reasons, including the ever-present "economic."

Their stakeholders, including other sisters, family members, and yes, donors, would probably be disappointed if they made bad financial and strategic decisions out of some kind of obligation to lose money simply because of non-profit status. Non-profit should not be confused with necessarily broke. If anybody wants to argue that the social infrastructure in Toledo built on the backs of Women Religious over the last 150 years, particularly schools and hospitals, are not payment in full for non-profit status, they are a fool.

At the end of the day, those entrusted with allowing or disallowing specific uses will make a decision, and the sisters will act accordingly. The question for the community is not whether or not the sisters are acting out of one motivation or another, but whether the community desires a change in planned use for the property. The first part is none of our business.

posted by justread on Jul 15, 2015 at 12:00:29 pm     #   4 people liked this

the stakeholders of NDA in all of the catagories you listed are divided on this sale to kroger. again, not an obligation to lose money but to make a little less money based on conforming with their mission.... i totally understand your feeling it is leaving money on the table.

the plan commission has done their work and taken a lot of pressure and grief for their trouble. now if approved it will not be a planning decision it will be a political decision.... and the conversation on this board points to a lot of love for our pols ! ;-)

agree that women religious were crucial to the social infrastructure of the development of toledo. the schools, hospitals, and orphanages just to start.

agree also with your final paragraph except to say many people's participation with the school in various ways throughout the years puts them inside the venn diagram of people who can reasonably express an opinion on what the nuns should do... and as neighbors and residents affected by the possible rezoning many more have a right to express an opinion on what the PC does.

posted by enjoyeverysandwich on Jul 15, 2015 at 02:33:31 pm     #  

for whatever it's worth, Kroger requested a delay in today's meeting. curious what happened!

posted by upso on Jul 15, 2015 at 04:28:20 pm     #  

Bump

And please mark your calendar for the next public Zoning & Planning City Council hearing:

Wednesday, September 23, 2015
4pm - One Government Center.

We’d love to have you come out for a minute at the mic and let City Council know why THIS corner matters to you!!

posted by JnJ on Sep 05, 2015 at 07:26:43 am     #  

And on the following day, September 24, a Committee of the Whole has been convened to discuss the proposed:

Ordinance 435-15: amending TMC Section 1111.0604 to eliminate super-majority of Council for Plan Commission disapproval.

Those interested in the Kroger thing might want to show up on both days.

posted by Bandito on Sep 10, 2015 at 12:41:49 am     #  

The trees are wonderful, the Sisters are great, (CK / ND family) the intersection of Monroe/Secor/Sylvania/475 is deadly now. Everyday back ups reach to the next intersection and beyond. Kroger on Monroe has been dirty, old and a bit scary for 20 years. Now we have shootings and drugs?? Car count is fine, but grandma is not gonna drive through that mess to patronize a new business at that corner..so it will sit empty for some time.. Come over and use the cross walk today at 12:30 pm..with your hand cart and stroller...not for the faint of heart I assure you. Bulldoze the present building, or move to the old farmer jack/sparton/ foodtown building or buy the rite aid, oreillys land and have access from syl and monroe..Sorry Sr Julene and Sr. Pauline Marie..

posted by zeffer1940 on Sep 11, 2015 at 11:44:10 am     #   2 people liked this

_
Mr. Craig said Tuesday the law director’s opinion was sufficient to now require only a simple majority to overturn plan commission disapproval, and that changing the law is irrelevant._

“What he says is now the rule unless someone takes him to court to challenge it,” Mr. Craig said.

posted by MsArcher on Sep 23, 2015 at 12:18:15 pm     #  

Gee, I wonder if Craig will bother showing up at the Committe of the Whole meeting tomorrow when Loukx's brief and the proposed ordinance to eliminate the supermajority requirement will be discussed.

If so, he'll be the one with his hands over his ears shouting "la-la-la" when the opposition speakers rip into Loukx's arguments.

I think Craig also mistakes the Law Director for a judge.

posted by Bandito on Sep 23, 2015 at 05:15:24 pm     #  

^^^^LIKE LIKE LIKE LIKE!

posted by Anniecski on Nov 10, 2015 at 06:03:08 pm     #  

They listed the 8 councilpersons who voted against. But not the 4 who voted for.

I guess they ran out of space.

posted by justread on Nov 10, 2015 at 06:09:10 pm     #  

The internet was full.

posted by Nolan_Rosenkrans on Nov 10, 2015 at 06:18:15 pm     #  

From The Blade: The staff also warned that commercial development could dramatically increase traffic in the heavily traveled Secor-Monroe-Sylvania Avenue district.

Which anyone who has driven that area more than five times could tell them. What, they didn't know?

posted by madjack on Nov 10, 2015 at 06:33:12 pm     #  

Nolan_Rosenkrans posted at 05:18:15 PM on Nov 10, 2015:

The internet was full.

Like. Like. Like.

posted by justread on Nov 10, 2015 at 06:34:09 pm     #  

Truly sad and disappointing.

Absolutely no regard for the future of the nuns who have given their LIFE to this community and our children.

I hope once the new facility is built in Whitehouse, the sisters cut down every tree on the property and demolish the building on that property. And then ask for a zoning change.

posted by MsArcher on Nov 10, 2015 at 07:27:08 pm     #   1 person liked this

I agree with MrsArcher that it is sad, however I am not surprised.

There is no doubt in mind that Kroger is going to relocate the store to another location and it would have been nice if they would have kept it in that area and the City of Toledo would have benefited from the tax revenue. When they relocate the store I wouldn't blame them if they told the city to pound sand and relocate just outside of the city limits in Sylvania Twp

posted by classylady on Nov 10, 2015 at 08:55:12 pm     #  

The proponents didn't even achieve a majority, much less a supermarjority.

Yet, based on the history of this, they clearly believed that if they could simply get rid of the supermajority requirement, they would have been able to muster a simple majority to pass the zoning change. But they didn't get rid of the supermajority requirement; the opinion of the city's Law Director was blown out of the water by the opposition.

Seems pretty obvious to me that some of those who voted against this were really in favor of it, but voted "no" only after it was clear that it wasn't going to pass. They didn't want to be on record as being on the losing side.

posted by Bandito on Nov 10, 2015 at 09:22:31 pm     #  

Being raised in a Catholic household and attending parochial schools, I know what angry nuns are capable of !!!!

posted by Hoops on Nov 11, 2015 at 09:09:54 am     #  

Well it looks like Kroger is again looking to get a zoning change passed to take over the Notre Dame property.

One thing I don't understand is why can't they take over the corner diagonally from their location where the run down Rite Aid store is located (and a number of other shoddy looking enterprises). This, at the vary least, would improve the appearance of that section of town if done correctly rather than have to opposite effect.

posted by breeman on Jan 13, 2017 at 09:33:56 am     #  

I truly don't get the opposition to Kroger purchasing the ND property. If traffic is truly the reason, why is no one up in arms about the Westgate area development which will surely add to the traffic congestion in that area. Don't misunderstand - I TOTALLY support the re-birth taking shape in that area.

If it is the loss of trees as some have mentioned, last I knew, new trees can be planted and they will grow. It's a beautiful thing.

If Kroger does indeed have a replacement tenant for their current building and is offering the Sisters an all cash deal that would greatly help them out, WTH, let it rip.

IMHO, Toledo is hardly in a position to turn down beneficial new development. Hell, they let the "Gentleman's Clubs" pop up anywhere and everywhere so why not a new grocery store?

posted by Foodie on Jan 13, 2017 at 10:03:55 am     #   6 people liked this

"If traffic is truly the reason, why is no one up in arms about the Westgate area development which will surely add to the traffic congestion in that area."

I don't understand why people are upset about the alleged traffic issues anywhere within Toledo. It's a city.

If traffic is partly or mostly due to people working at or patronizing businesses, then that's a good thing, in my opinion.

If most of the structures in West Toledo were vacant with little foot and road traffic, then people would bitch about that too.

If drivers are simply passing through those West Toledo areas on their way home or to work elsewhere, then those drivers should choose a different route or realize that Toledo is a city with some growth areas.

Whining about traffic in busy areas of the city reminds me of last decade when some people complained about too much noise in the entertainment areas of downtown Toledo.

I don't live in the city for tranquility. I like a bit of bustle. And I like living close to the many businesses that I patronize. Otherwise I would move to a soybean field.

posted by jr on Jan 13, 2017 at 11:09:59 am     #   8 people liked this

Finally some reasonable thoughts on the situation. It is a city after all, and I live in the area that will be affected. Like you, I don't know what the big deal is. I've lived in some other larger cities and traffic on its worst day on Toledo is everyday traffic elsewhere.

The retail growth in West Toledo is very beneficial in my opinion and it's stupid to stop this over an extra minute or two on the roads and a few trees. I've never heard anyway say, "Wow, driving down Monroe street and seeing all these buildings -- in a city, no less! -- can be relieved by that tiny green space triangle in the middle of Secor, Monroe, Sylvania and I-475! Oh the trees!"

And to others who whine about city planning, come on, there is no plan in that area. It's haphazard at best. And Kroger doesn't need to find a tenant for its current spot. It rents that space for $50,000 a month and thus a big impetus for the move.

If Kroger is allowed to develop that space, guess what, others will follow. That Farmer Jack spot will finally get filled in and maybe if we're lucky Sears and E-B will make room for other to come. I'd love to see a Buffalo Wild Wings or Quaker Steak and Lube come in with another upscale anchor store.

And, yes, that will bring even more traffic. What a shame that businesses actually want to expand to Toledo, and its residents want to spend money.

posted by westsidebob on Jan 13, 2017 at 12:25:03 pm     #   8 people liked this

This is the Kroger's were talking about, right?

http://www.toledotalk.com/cgi-bin/tt.pl/article/163340/93_year_old_woman_assaulted_at_Krogers_on_Monroe_Street

http://www.toledotalk.com/cgi-bin/tt.pl/article/185262/Shooting_at_Kroger_----MonroeSecor

Sounds like a great idea moving it right next door to a girls high school.

posted by SensorG on Jan 13, 2017 at 02:44:52 pm     #  

Because that's Kroger's fault ...

posted by westsidebob on Jan 13, 2017 at 03:58:47 pm     #  

Don't get me wrong, I don't disagree with progress or development (or even the traffic). I just don't want to take a site that is not an eyesore and turn it into one in the name of "progress" there's no reason why they couldn't use the property diagonal to them vs. across the street.

At the end of the day the amount of traffic should be comparable to what is there already anyway, but I just don't think we should compromise on the appearance of the area in the name of progress...I see this like eating a spoon of sugar when you are hungry a quick rush but in the long term detrimental. I'm only taking issue because I'm reasonably certain they won't be held to any appearance standards when they propose their new facility...Toledo is quick to allow anyone to build anything without any regard to aesthetics.

posted by breeman on Jan 13, 2017 at 04:57:42 pm     #  

I think they've already agreed to extra greenspace, half as many outlots, etc.

What I've noticed is that big projects by major companies tend to look a lot nicer than what they're replacing. Their own corporate image/policies come into play. New Burger Kings, etc. look a whole lot nicer than older ones. No one in the city is requiring them to upgrade (other than to comply with existing codes).

Toledo and NW Ohio in general are living through the tail end of cheap 1970s architecture. In our case, change will probably be very beneficial.

posted by viola on Jan 13, 2017 at 05:15:50 pm     #   1 person liked this

breeman posted at 03:57:42 PM on Jan 13, 2017:

Don't get me wrong, I don't disagree with progress or development (or even the traffic). I just don't want to take a site that is not an eyesore and turn it into one in the name of "progress" there's no reason why they couldn't use the property diagonal to them vs. across the street.

At the end of the day the amount of traffic should be comparable to what is there already anyway, but I just don't think we should compromise on the appearance of the area in the name of progress...I see this like eating a spoon of sugar when you are hungry a quick rush but in the long term detrimental. I'm only taking issue because I'm reasonably certain they won't be held to any appearance standards when they propose their new facility...Toledo is quick to allow anyone to build anything without any regard to aesthetics.

Perhaps the main reason is the sisters' property was for sale? Likely the other land isn't.

posted by westsidebob on Jan 13, 2017 at 05:19:01 pm     #   2 people liked this

Tomahawk Development, has placed the Best Buy Plaza (next to the current Kroger at Monroe/Secor) up for sale. This plaza includes the Best Buy, Rent A Center, First Choice Haircutters, Dave Smith Appliance Services, and a vacant spot. According to The Blade, the company president said they purchased the property in 1986 as an investment and that "it's time to see what that investment is worth" by selling it.
Yeah, right, sounds like their going to get rid of it in case Kroger moves.

posted by llz on Jan 20, 2017 at 11:35:28 am     #  

Does the story mention who owns the current Kroger property in the story? Because Kroger does not.

posted by westsidebob on Jan 20, 2017 at 11:40:03 am     #  

According to the The Blade: "The site, which is next to a store and site owned by the Kroger Co.,....."
I was under the impression that Kroger did not own that property either but......???

posted by llz on Jan 20, 2017 at 12:23:59 pm     #  

Yes, I was too, as in paying $50,000 a month to rent the space.

posted by westsidebob on Jan 20, 2017 at 12:27:52 pm     #  

llz posted at 11:23:59 AM on Jan 20, 2017:

According to the The Blade: "The site, which is next to a store and site owned by the Kroger Co.,....."
I was under the impression that Kroger did not own that property either but......???

Just checked AREIS - Kroger owns the property and has for over 20 years.

On a side note I HATE the new AREIS. Not sure how long this version has been out, I don't use it a lot, but you can't do intersection searches, it's hard to find out info on a nearby address from the one you are looking at. I hate it. HATE HATE HATE.

posted by MsArcher on Jan 20, 2017 at 01:16:09 pm     #   1 person liked this

Interesting, then perhaps Kroger may have plans to buy its neighbors, which had previously not been available?

posted by westsidebob on Jan 20, 2017 at 01:26:23 pm     #  

So, I normally avoid Krogers as I normally avoid crowds.

Tonight, I broke from habit and popped into the Monroe street Krogers for a quick shopping list.

Not only did I find easy parking and bump into some friends, but WTF... that store is easily bigger than anything but the Andersons on Talmadge. The need to expand makes zero sense to me. That store is huge!

posted by upso on Jan 24, 2017 at 10:53:23 pm     #   1 person liked this

Because Kroger's new model is the Marketplace

posted by westsidebob on Jan 25, 2017 at 09:52:04 am     #  

"Kroger"

posted by BulldogBuckeye on Jan 25, 2017 at 10:00:58 am     #   1 person liked this

it is interresting that so many stores people want are getting smaller such as whole foods, trader joes, etc and simultaneously canned and dried goods are going to online fulfillments centers, a market amazon is trying to corner. if kroger gets this rezoning does the land become so much more valuable that if the store succeeds or fails doesnt matter ?

having said that, this store appears to be within their normal business plan. i dont think it is wrong of them to ask but i do believe it is good planning and the city's right and actually their responsibility to say no.

much of what is seen as the value of the NDA property is based on the fact that the plan commission has held the line and not allowed properties south of sylvania between secor and talmadge to become CR. other property have over the years not been allowed to become CR. to change the rules and ignore the precedent allows NDA to essentially recieve favoritism from government because of good connections and diminishes the value of those other properties that were not allowed to be rezoned CR. plus the change to CR diminishes the quality of life for the residents in the neighborhoods around NDA, many of whom paid good money to send children to those schools and written checks to support the endowment and retirement funds. For all those years that the current zoning benefitted NDA they were happy with it and likewise they should recognize the value to those that remain in the neighborhood as they leave and be content with it remaining so.

posted by enjoyeverysandwich on Jan 25, 2017 at 10:03:12 am     #   2 people liked this

Enjoy, you make some good points. As someone who lives literally 3 blocks from the current Kroger location, I would look forward to the move on the "other" side of Secor. I have lived in our house for 20+ years, and can count on 1 hand the number of times I have set foot inside of that current Kroger. On the few times we have needed something so badly that we ventured over there, I would usually send my husband in (sometimes I would just wait in the car). The main reason we don't go there is the parking The second reason is the presumption that it's a ghetto Kroger. Though, every time I have been in the lot, I am always amazed at the amount of "local west-enders", elderly, and what looks like UT students coming in and out of the store. So is it really as bad as I had thought? Upso mentioned above that he even ran into some friends there. I don't know....I'd still feel better if it was a bit further away, even if, the loss of a park like setting (NDA) would be lost. I do fear, at what could happen to the current Kroger location. I'd hate for that to become a plaza consisting of Millenium Fashion, Advance Payday, and We Buy Gold.....
Furthermore, I do feel for the Sisters of ND, as they have this land that they thought was an investment and want to cash it in now and they are being given such a hard time. Yes, the traffic really sucks on Secor at certain times of the day, but I think it will help our end of town stay vibrant having places that people from other areas of town (and out of towners) spend their money at. It makes me wonder, if it wasn't a Kroger, but a Trader Joe, or a Cheesecake Factory (for you Upso!) that wanted to buy that property, if this would even be an issue?

posted by llz on Jan 25, 2017 at 12:04:06 pm     #  

Enjoy,
The suburbs don't mind having the super Kroger stores. Even Bowling Green's new Kroger is almost done. Toledo, like when Walmart came to town, is the last hold holdout. I say all of this and I don't even shop at Kroger. I just don't see why it can't move to the new spot. I shop at Meijer, and wish one was closer to the Secor corridor.

posted by westsidebob on Jan 25, 2017 at 12:52:25 pm     #   1 person liked this

WSB... i did not mean to imply that we westside..ers or anyone doesn't want krogers. i dont shop so much there anymore because getting up secor is a problem and foodtown at kenwood plaza is quite sufficient for us in the sandwich family... my point is increasing the ratio of land zoned CR versus a more tenable mix of zoning/uses. not anti-kroger and except for my 7th grade teacher not anti-nun.

liz... the nuns are not losing their investment at all... they bought the property at one zoning type. it has experienced tremendous valuation through the years. they can now sell at a much higher price.

they just should not be given the additional bonanza of a different zoning type on top of that !! this would be at the expense, increased travel times, road repair costs, etc resulting from additional traffic, and of lower property values and inconvenience for everyone else.

posted by enjoyeverysandwich on Jan 25, 2017 at 02:12:56 pm     #  

the plan commission routinely turns down rezoning requests in residential neighborhoods for 24 hour daycares... if suddenly your neighbor was granted a license for 24 hour daycare think of the consequences.... several daycare employees parking on the street, pick-up and drop-offs occurring before first shift and after second shift, a backyard with 20 kids running around all day. this change would be a great benefit to the daycare owner who might be a really sweet and generous person... but it would have negative effect on quality of life and a reduction in property value for neighbors.

posted by enjoyeverysandwich on Jan 25, 2017 at 02:23:12 pm     #   1 person liked this

Enjoy, that makes sense. So, if the nuns can sell that property, what could the purchaser do with it for how it is currently zoned?

posted by llz on Jan 25, 2017 at 03:06:12 pm     #  

enjoyeverysandwich-great points all around.

Currently zoned as residential. They were willing to change zoning as long as it keeps a "campus" style property. Kroger will adapt if the zoning never changes. It's VERY important for them to fully dominate this market, they aren't going to take a pass. They have $4billion to spend in 2017-2018 to upgrade and acquire property. They are sinking nearly $200 million in the Columbus area in 2017 alone. There are also rumors of them purchasing Giant Eagle-which may not sound like a big deal, but Kroger isn't in Cleveland. Giant Eagle has 224 locations Nationally. Considering what is happening with Andersons, and the success of the larger stores, there are plenty of options along Monroe St.

Until there is truly a dearth of viable concrete, Zoning should hold firm.

posted by ahmahler on Jan 25, 2017 at 03:38:44 pm     #  

Final Vote is today by Council. Does it pass this time???

posted by Xbuckeyex on Feb 09, 2017 at 03:07:53 pm     #  

It certainly ought to. If you want trees, move to Monclova...tons of trees in the Oak Openings district.

Regarding traffic, you won't be able to tell the difference at that corner, or up Secor Rd. for that matter. Whole Foods, new hotels...all of these business will continue to draw people to the area. Been like that since the 70s, now the city wants to control it? Too late for that. Finally, efforts are being made to get solutions to the traffic snarl.

And...as a Kroger retiree, the company had a store at Franklin Park from about 1972 to 1984. Never a performing store. Closed when Monroe/Secor store opened.

And..Kroger was in Cleveland/Pittsburgh....the union thought they could dictate terms in the mid 70s there. Yeah, well that's why Kroger hasn't been there since.

posted by ThePolishFalcon on Feb 09, 2017 at 03:52:08 pm     #  

I personally am fine with the new proposal. I do like the greenspace and it sounds like they will now keep several acres.

I also saw the street study - looks like they are re-timing several lights, building right hand turn lanes and adding a few medians.

article - http://www.toledoblade.com/local/2017/02/09/Central-Secor-growth-from-University-of-Toledo-proximity.html

posted by Xbuckeyex on Feb 09, 2017 at 04:08:09 pm     #  

Gee, tons of new development in a city that so desperately needs it.

What a terrible problem to have.

Wish we could have something similar happen in the Alexis Rd. from the former Northtowne to Lewis Ave. corridor. A new or renamed booby bar every other week has become quite tiresome.

posted by Foodie on Feb 09, 2017 at 04:25:26 pm     #   3 people liked this

Xbuckeyex posted at 02:07:53 PM on Feb 09, 2017:

Final Vote is today by Council. Does it pass this time???

It's the Toledo way. Keep proposing and keep voting until it passes. Works for general tax increases and levies. We could call it the "Imagination Station model".

posted by JoeyGee on Feb 09, 2017 at 04:44:38 pm     #   2 people liked this

Let's hope if it does pass, old Krogers will get demolished

posted by FranklinT on Feb 09, 2017 at 05:16:55 pm     #  

today is plan commission... then on to planning and zoning committee... then on to full council.

posted by enjoyeverysandwich on Feb 09, 2017 at 05:27:53 pm     #  

rejected today 4 to 1

posted by Mike21 on Feb 09, 2017 at 11:08:45 pm     #  

So, anyone at the meeting yesterday? I saw this from a friend on FB
"After 3-1/2 hours of testimony, Toledo Plan Commission has again denied Kroger's application to rezone the SND campus at Secor/Monroe. And, it now comes to light that another developer HAD offered to buy the property for the Sisters' asking price. His plan is to develop the property for mixed residential purposes. "
That "other developer" wasn't mentioned in The Blade article. anyone have any insight?

http://www.toledoblade.com/local/2017/02/10/Plan-commission-again-rejects-Kroger-s-plans.html

posted by ahmahler on Feb 10, 2017 at 11:35:30 am     #  

The Sisters need to raise the price.

posted by FranklinT on Feb 10, 2017 at 11:40:18 am     #  

If there is indeed an "other developer", we'll likely find he/she has a local political connection.............if anyone cares to dig deep enough.

posted by Foodie on Feb 10, 2017 at 12:01:02 pm     #  

This is getting stupid. I don't understand what the problem is, they are right across the street already!!! Does anyone really want to live at Monroe and Secor???

posted by nana on Feb 10, 2017 at 07:17:36 pm     #  

See post above yours.

posted by Foodie on Feb 10, 2017 at 08:51:45 pm     #   1 person liked this

http://www.toledoblade.com/Real-Estate/2017/02/11/Developer-Kroger-s-wasn-t-only-offer-for-Sisters-of-Notre-Dame-site.html

Miller Diversified was the other offer. Developer of Arrowhead Park.

posted by Xbuckeyex on Feb 11, 2017 at 01:27:28 am     #  

Oh wow-the plot thickens. I wonder if the sisters rejected the previous offer because of Kroger sniffing around. I'm guessing we can stop feeling sorry for the sisters now, huh? Received an offer for the asking price, without rezoning? Win for everyone, except Kroger, who will score another win at some point.

posted by ahmahler on Feb 11, 2017 at 10:14:32 am     #   1 person liked this

That was so low of Miller Diversified to do that. Talk about a sore loser. I don't know details about Miller's offer, what I do know is that the Sisters did receive more than one offer, but Kroger was the only offer that was cash with no strings attached. Other offers included stuff like the Sisters holding a note/mortgage or the Sisters had to remediate the Provincial House, etc.

For Miller to come out and say that they made an offer at full price without disclosing details - that is unfair and backhanded. I think a lot less of them right now. The Sisters never said they didn't get other offers.

posted by MsArcher on Feb 11, 2017 at 10:21:32 am     #   1 person liked this

it had been said by representatives of ND that there were no other offers and at the same time there had been whispers that there had been an offer... clarifying that is helpful for all. the truth is the nuns had not spoken to anyone during this year so no clarity was forth-coming from them.

and miller coming forward with this information and now you disclosing that there were other offers beyond miller makes me think less of the sisters of ND.

posted by enjoyeverysandwich on Feb 11, 2017 at 01:36:46 pm     #   1 person liked this

The Sister's need to say 7 Our Father's and 7 Hail Mary's for this one.

Kroger will get what they want because money talks.

posted by FranklinT on Feb 11, 2017 at 02:21:15 pm     #  

uncle bobby says money swears

posted by enjoyeverysandwich on Feb 11, 2017 at 02:25:24 pm     #  

Well Kroger will win this dog and pony show. I'm sure everyone wI'll not be surprised when they get the green light.

My concern is the vacant building that will be left behind.

posted by FranklinT on Feb 11, 2017 at 02:29:08 pm     #  

I don't doubt Kroger will get what it says eventually and will be in that space. With the current location of Best Buy being for sale, isn't it feasible they move into the old Food Town location on Secor? It's now a far more "buzzier" location and they could build a showcase store.

Obviously, that's a wild speculation, but if Kroger leaves, that leaves a pretty desolate corner. I could see BB wanting to leave.

posted by JoeyGee on Feb 11, 2017 at 02:43:05 pm     #  

Rumor is Whole Foods has been delayed 9-12 months. Another bad quarter by WF and the 365 stores haven't produced as expected.

posted by Xbuckeyex on Feb 11, 2017 at 03:28:58 pm     #  

Planning commission coming off as anti-business and anti-development. Why is the 2020 master plan a hard and fast rule? There are lots of places for institutional campus developments in the future and most are better suited than this corner abutting a busy commercial district. A new Kroger creates 100 jobs, adds to local tax rolls, and will probably have a nice cheese section. Stop being sticks in the mud. Let them build the store.

posted by mixman on Feb 11, 2017 at 04:02:11 pm     #   1 person liked this

There is no stopping the Shark in the Pool. Just make sure you do something with the vacant building ..

posted by FranklinT on Feb 11, 2017 at 04:19:54 pm     #  

Xbuckeyex posted at 02:28:58 PM on Feb 11, 2017:

Rumor is Whole Foods has been delayed 9-12 months. Another bad quarter by WF and the 365 stores haven't produced as expected.

Where did you hear this? They are just going to let the building sit there empty for a year? That sounds like a super terrible business move.

posted by upso on Feb 11, 2017 at 05:03:38 pm     #  

Hampton Park neighborhood FB page. Here is the exact rumor:

I spoke to the staff at Bassett's Health Foods (who are excited to have the new Whole Foods as a neighbor) last night. Rumor has it that the 365 is delayed for 9-12 months because the new business model (365 stores) aren't doing as well as planned.

Per Secor Square, the 365 is still coming. It will just be delayed.

posted by Xbuckeyex on Feb 11, 2017 at 05:29:55 pm     #  

I am surprised to hear Bassett's is happy to have WF as a neighbor.

posted by upso on Feb 11, 2017 at 05:57:55 pm     #  

What was the original opening date? It must be almost done, construction-wise. This sounds a bit dubious. Strange business move.

posted by ahmahler on Feb 11, 2017 at 07:19:46 pm     #  

So-I did some quick digging. The developers tweeted this week, that it's nearing completion. I checked the 365 site, and they still have 2017 listed with no open date. I messaged Secor Square, and they said that the date hasn't been announced yet, and to stay tuned to the FB page for announcements. I then asked if they could confirm a 2017 opening, and they repeated the previous message. Weird.

posted by ahmahler on Feb 11, 2017 at 07:42:28 pm     #  

WF 365 does seem to be taking an unusually long time to open. One would think those stores would be quite modular and could be thrown open in relatively short order.

posted by Foodie on Feb 12, 2017 at 04:16:04 am     #  

Great research. Thanks!

posted by upso on Feb 12, 2017 at 08:09:06 pm     #  

As everyone knows Andersons is closing and has been losing over 2 million a year for the last 4 years.

However, the last half of 2016 was the first time their food/produce/cheese section saw a big decline in sales.

Undoubtedly, Fresh Thyme was the culprit, and I unfortunately am one of the customers who, like many, made the switch.

Have to think that Fresh Thyme bearing Wholr Foods to market hasn't helped. To top it off Fresh Markey has a loyal base as well.

I do expect WF to open, but I am not sure it makes it too long. Very competitive market and being the last one in, isn't good.

posted by Xbuckeyex on Feb 12, 2017 at 10:39:23 pm     #  

I have a suspicion that the 365 concept is right on for this market. I'm hearing it's VERY price competitive.

posted by ahmahler on Feb 12, 2017 at 11:41:04 pm     #  

Having never gone into Whole Foods, Fresh Thyme or Fresh Market, I wonder about market saturation. I'm 43, middle class, Sylvania resident and runner. I do eat healthy and fresh as much as I can. I'm probably the prime market.

I am just not drawn to those stores. Maybe it's just the ingrained Toledo attitude of "I can just get everything at Kroger/Meijer". I hardly shopped the Anderson's. I just saw higher prices.

I'm probably missing out and not denigrating any of those stores at all, just pointing out that there are plenty like me who are just indifferent and probably not enough people to support all those stores.

posted by JoeyGee on Feb 13, 2017 at 09:30:55 am     #   2 people liked this

Changing shopping habits is pretty difficult. If you shop at Kroger and Meijer, it's probably convenient. And those stores have done a really good job of stepping up their game, both in quality of produce, and availability of organically made products. The days of "destination" grocery, is fading. Whole Foods , made their mark in that idea. The newer stores (Fresh Market, Fresh Thyme, Walt Churchill's and eventually 365) are built around the idea that their average customer will hit the market 3-5x/ week, and be in and out. They are in the habits of the people that live close by. You wouldn't think there was enough business in Sylvania Township to support a huge Meijer, Walmart, plus 3 very large Kroger stores. These small stores only need a fraction of the traffic of the keep rolling. Anderson's closing, only adds to the traffic. There are a lot of people in the West Toledo, Old Orchard, Ottawa Hills, that love this type of shopping.

posted by ahmahler on Feb 13, 2017 at 10:30:07 am     #  

I think you summed it up perfectly.

I stop at Fresh Thyme 3-4 times per week. I love their fresh soup, about half the cost of Zoup or Panera and just as good.

I can be in and out by the time it takes me to park at Kroger and get my shopping cart.

Quick, easy, overall very affordable and at times even cheaper, combine that with good customer service and, well how do I put this, "different" clientele and its more than worth it.

posted by Xbuckeyex on Feb 13, 2017 at 11:05:43 am     #   1 person liked this

I guess I'm not the demographic, then. With 3 very active kids, I have to do my shopping on the weekends, usually in one shot. If I need food in the middle of the week, I'll probably end up in a drive through. I don't have time to shop during the week. I don't think I'd want to shop that much during the week if I did have the time.

That's just me. I do hope there is a market for all these. That's a great sign for the area if there is.

posted by JoeyGee on Feb 13, 2017 at 01:02:47 pm     #   3 people liked this

Did she really say that? A FB post from Councilman Yvonne Harper came up on my feed as follows:

Just left from City Council Chambers a little a lady walked up to me and - said Ms. Harper do you own your home - I told her someday - she said well if you want to sell - do I want someone to tell me who to sell it to - then why are you trying to tell me who to sell mine & they own their property but they cannot afford to keep it up because of the aging building & furnace - she walks away & she turn around & let me know she is a nun - the KROGER SITE is a big deal

Jesus People ain't no joke - I want to know why ain't nuns wearing black & white - to identify themselves.

I'm Just Sayin'

Yvonne Harper, Council #4

Seriously? She wants to know why nuns can't be identified by their clothes? We aren't supposed to judge young black youth by their clothes; we aren't supposed to judge women by their clothes. But she's wants to identify a nun by her clothes?!?

(Side note - great point the nun was making!)

posted by MsArcher on Mar 16, 2017 at 02:30:27 pm     #   2 people liked this

I really wish Yvonne did not represent my interests on council. Not a fan, at all.

posted by upso on Mar 16, 2017 at 02:37:06 pm     #   3 people liked this

Side note-they're not telling her to sell to. They're not allowing rezoning.

posted by ahmahler on Mar 16, 2017 at 02:59:23 pm     #   1 person liked this

MsArcher posted at 02:30:27 PM on Mar 16, 2017:

Did she really say that? A FB post from Councilman Yvonne Harper came up on my feed as follows:

Just left from City Council Chambers a little a lady walked up to me and - said Ms. Harper do you own your home - I told her someday - she said well if you want to sell - do I want someone to tell me who to sell it to - then why are you trying to tell me who to sell mine & they own their property but they cannot afford to keep it up because of the aging building & furnace - she walks away & she turn around & let me know she is a nun - the KROGER SITE is a big deal

Jesus People ain't no joke - I want to know why ain't nuns wearing black & white - to identify themselves.

I'm Just Sayin'

Yvonne Harper, Council #4

Seriously? She wants to know why nuns can't be identified by their clothes? We aren't supposed to judge young black youth by their clothes; we aren't supposed to judge women by their clothes. But she's wants to identify a nun by her clothes?!?

(Side note - great point the nun was making!)

A) Yvonne Harper is an embarrassment.
B) I have had a significant experience with women religious. I think her encounter is fabricated. I seriously suggest that somebody get a better description of the little old lady and maybe review camera footage to see if it even happened. I think she had this encounter just like Steve Steele was jumped. Nuns may have an opinion, but they don't walk away, then turn around and say "Gotcha, I'm a nun."
C) Why aren't the crooks on council wearing orange?

posted by justread on Mar 16, 2017 at 03:13:25 pm     #   10 people liked this

"Jesus People Ain't No Joke" I'm going to need that on a t-shirt and maybe some bumper stickers.

That's gold, Jerry. Gold!

posted by JoeyGee on Mar 16, 2017 at 03:16:07 pm     #   1 person liked this

If your neighbor wanted sell his house to MadJack for MJ's Whiskey and Porn Emporium with 25 cent movies and jello shots, would you be OK because it was their property?

posted by SensorG on Mar 16, 2017 at 03:20:22 pm     #   4 people liked this

"That's gold, Jerry. Gold!"

Hah! A Kenny Bania reference. They should call it Roundtine.

posted by jr on Mar 16, 2017 at 03:33:42 pm     #   2 people liked this

@justread:

"C) Why aren't the crooks on council wearing orange?"

Because orange is the new black? Dunno, I'm just asking....

posted by Foodie on Mar 16, 2017 at 03:36:34 pm     #   1 person liked this

SensorG posted at 03:20:22 PM on Mar 16, 2017:

If your neighbor wanted sell his house to MadJack for MJ's Whiskey and Porn Emporium with 25 cent movies and jello shots, would you be OK because it was their property?

So the Kroger Corporation is the equivalent of a whiskey and porn emporium?

Hmmm..........who knew?

posted by Foodie on Mar 16, 2017 at 03:38:18 pm     #   1 person liked this

SensorG posted at 03:20:22 PM on Mar 16, 2017:

If your neighbor wanted sell his house to MadJack for MJ's Whiskey and Porn Emporium with 25 cent movies and jello shots, would you be OK because it was their property?

Whew. I thought he was going to say daycare.

posted by justread on Mar 16, 2017 at 03:39:39 pm     #   6 people liked this

MsArcher posted at 02:30:27 PM on Mar 16, 2017:

Did she really say that? A FB post from Councilman Yvonne Harper came up on my feed as follows:

Just left from City Council Chambers a little a lady walked up to me and - said Ms. Harper do you own your home - I told her someday - she said well if you want to sell - do I want someone to tell me who to sell it to - then why are you trying to tell me who to sell mine & they own their property but they cannot afford to keep it up because of the aging building & furnace - she walks away & she turn around & let me know she is a nun - the KROGER SITE is a big deal

Jesus People ain't no joke - I want to know why ain't nuns wearing black & white - to identify themselves.

I'm Just Sayin'

Yvonne Harper, Council #4

Seriously? She wants to know why nuns can't be identified by their clothes? We aren't supposed to judge young black youth by their clothes; we aren't supposed to judge women by their clothes. But she's wants to identify a nun by her clothes?!?

(Side note - great point the nun was making!)

I would love to know why Yvonne Harper, an elected official, can't follow the rules of proper English.

I'm Just Sayin'!

posted by toledolen_ on Mar 16, 2017 at 05:53:21 pm     #   4 people liked this

I have had a significant experience with women religious. I think her encounter is fabricated.

Good point; I actually told a SND nun exactly how to get their zoning request through - cut down all of the trees, and tear down the building, then request the zoning change - voids all of the pleas for trees and preservation. The response was they couldn't do that. Then you don't want to sell that bad.

posted by MsArcher on Mar 16, 2017 at 07:03:12 pm     #  

mrs archer-do you have a PO box, or a place I could have something delivered ? I'd like to send you our beloved copy of The Lorax. I think it might help.

posted by ahmahler on Mar 16, 2017 at 07:17:09 pm     #  

No thneed for that.

posted by justread on Mar 16, 2017 at 07:35:41 pm     #   1 person liked this

But a thneed can be nearly anything you thneed it to be...

posted by ahmahler on Mar 16, 2017 at 08:10:45 pm     #   1 person liked this

justread posted at 03:13:25 PM on Mar 16, 2017:
MsArcher posted at 02:30:27 PM on Mar 16, 2017:

Did she really say that? A FB post from Councilman Yvonne Harper came up on my feed as follows:

Just left from City Council Chambers a little a lady walked up to me and - said Ms. Harper do you own your home - I told her someday - she said well if you want to sell - do I want someone to tell me who to sell it to - then why are you trying to tell me who to sell mine & they own their property but they cannot afford to keep it up because of the aging building & furnace - she walks away & she turn around & let me know she is a nun - the KROGER SITE is a big deal

Jesus People ain't no joke - I want to know why ain't nuns wearing black & white - to identify themselves.

I'm Just Sayin'

Yvonne Harper, Council #4

Seriously? She wants to know why nuns can't be identified by their clothes? We aren't supposed to judge young black youth by their clothes; we aren't supposed to judge women by their clothes. But she's wants to identify a nun by her clothes?!?

(Side note - great point the nun was making!)

A) Yvonne Harper is an embarrassment.
B) I have had a significant experience with women religious. I think her encounter is fabricated. I seriously suggest that somebody get a better description of the little old lady and maybe review camera footage to see if it even happened. I think she had this encounter just like Steve Steele was jumped. Nuns may have an opinion, but they don't walk away, then turn around and say "Gotcha, I'm a nun."

C) Why aren't the crooks on council wearing orange?

Yvonne rambled on about some story at a warehouse district meeting one night, about encountering some 12 year old girls walking the streets in downtown at 2 in the morning, and telling them they needed to get he and go to bed. I think fabricating stories is probably common with her.

posted by Johio83 on Mar 16, 2017 at 09:53:33 pm     #  

upso posted at 02:37:06 PM on Mar 16, 2017:

I really wish Yvonne did not represent my interests on council. Not a fan, at all.

February 2015 Toledo Talk thread Yvonne Harper on Toledo City Clowncil ???? about the possibility of Harper getting appointed to council to fill the spot vacated by Hicks-Hudson.

justread's February 2015 comment about Yvonne Harper:

Hmm, had to retire from the court because she was disruptive and racist.

A history of discipline and conflict.

Owes thousands of dollars in back taxes and is being sued by the State of Ohio.

Her record showed she was evaluated as unsatisfactory in working with the public and couldn't communicate verbally.

She couldn't handle constructive criticism, follow procedures, and had a bad attitude.

Wow. Makes you wonder why she has been elevated above others in the party.

Wait... let me guess. She campaigned against SB5, right?

All is forgiven in the eyes of the Lucas County Labor Party.

From the February 2015 Toledo Blade story

Steven Steel, an at-large Toledo councilman and the county Democratic Party chairman, said he will vote for Ms. Harper.

A couple winners there.

March 2015 Blade op-ed

Council members must make their choices in the interest of all of their constituents, rather than respond to the dictates of political and union bosses.

Council members must elect a new president to succeed Paula Hicks-Hudson. Insiders say that council incumbent Steven Steel is seeking support among his colleagues for the position, and has the backing of local private-sector unions that traditionally have exercised broad political influence on the council.

The county Democratic Party and its organized-labor allies are leaning on council members to appoint Yvonne Harper, the party’s executive director. But a review by The Blade of Ms. Harper’s record suggests that here too, council members can find better candidates.

The Blade op-ed writer suggested that Toledo would be better off if someone other than Steel was council president, and someone other than Harper was appointed to council. Reality and the status quo thought differently.

posted by jr on Mar 16, 2017 at 10:30:29 pm     #  

In 2015, I had no idea how bad she really was. :(

posted by justread on Mar 17, 2017 at 06:21:11 am     #   1 person liked this

Carty's diatribe against Kroger's proposed build at the the corner of Monroe and Secor was good for a laugh yesterday.

http://www.toledoblade.com/Op-Ed-Columns/2017/03/19/Kroger-decision-key-test-of-our-city-s-values.html

posted by Ace_Face on Mar 20, 2017 at 11:09:48 am     #  

I also got a good laugh out of Carty's temper tantrum. I'm surprised that dude hasn't has a major coronary yet, he has to have sky high blood pressure with his anger issues.

I hope this isn't an indication he is thinking of running against PH2 for her job again.

posted by classylady on Mar 20, 2017 at 12:00:56 pm     #  

classylady posted at 12:00:56 PM on Mar 20, 2017:

I also got a good laugh out of Carty's temper tantrum. I'm surprised that dude hasn't has a major coronary yet, he has to have sky high blood pressure with his anger issues.

I hope this isn't an indication he is thinking of running against PH2 for her job again.

Carty's bypass in 2004 seems to have done its job.

posted by justread on Mar 20, 2017 at 12:04:41 pm     #  

Any other part of Toledo, under similar circumstances, and this thing is already built. I dont have a dog in this fight (oops thats gonna get me in trouble) but I gotta say, the West Toledo bias is REAL and the East Side might as well be on Mars when it comes to Toledo politics and priorities.

posted by BulldogBuckeye on Mar 20, 2017 at 12:31:43 pm     #  

BTW, Carleton is wrong. The Pburg Kroger is all new, not an expansion. It was just build right next to the old location.

posted by BulldogBuckeye on Mar 20, 2017 at 12:39:41 pm     #  

Per ignazio Messina on Twitter:
Early straw poll of @city_of_toledo council looks like it WILL approve @kroger rezoning for controversial new Monroe/Secor store tomorrow

posted by ahmahler on Mar 20, 2017 at 02:58:12 pm     #  

ahmahler posted at 02:58:12 PM on Mar 20, 2017:Per ignazio Messina on Twitter:
Early straw poll of @city_of_toledo council looks like it WILL approve @kroger rezoning for controversial new Monroe/Secor store tomorrow

I'm not surprised, but I think it's a major mistake.

posted by madjack on Mar 20, 2017 at 03:04:37 pm     #  

hello loves...thread got hijacked by Carlo Sommer

posted by justareviewer on Mar 20, 2017 at 03:19:33 pm     #   2 people liked this

.I too am not surprised. For short term construction jobs they will vote to support the special interests that get them elected. The traffic in that area is already a mess , add at least a traffic light or two on Secor and one or two more on Monroe and with traffic engineering the way it is , good luck navigating through the area. It's called saturation and we'll have to deal with it for generations . If Kroger were good citizens they should entertain the idea of building on their exciting site with the purchase of the Best Buy site.

posted by marving on Mar 20, 2017 at 04:38:47 pm     #   1 person liked this

Council just voted 9-2 to approve.

posted by Foodie on Mar 21, 2017 at 04:28:15 pm     #  

justareviewer posted at 03:19:33 PM on Mar 20, 2017:

hello loves...thread got hijacked by Carlo Sommer

It had to be hijacked by someone.

posted by madjack on Mar 21, 2017 at 04:31:25 pm     #  

Glad to see we have a group of professionals who oversee the activities in their field, just so they can be overturned by people who have no experience or background whatsoever in said field. That's clearly how it's supposed to work.

posted by Johio83 on Mar 21, 2017 at 04:32:13 pm     #   2 people liked this

Foodie posted at 04:28:15 PM on Mar 21, 2017:

Council just voted 9-2 to approve.

Who were the two with sanity?

posted by madjack on Mar 21, 2017 at 04:33:29 pm     #  

Blade just updated that it was 10-2

posted by upso on Mar 21, 2017 at 04:58:14 pm     #  

Was it the Jesus people or the trade union that swayed Harper's vote?

posted by TrilbyGuy on Mar 21, 2017 at 05:09:45 pm     #   1 person liked this

Johio83 posted at 04:32:13 PM on Mar 21, 2017:

Glad to see we have a group of professionals who oversee the activities in their field, just so they can be overturned by people who have no experience or background whatsoever in said field. That's clearly how it's supposed to work.

I don't view it like this. Part of what the plan commission goes off of, is the planning documents that are approved by city council - in other words the city council gives the plan commission written direction in how to do their job. But as time goes by, as elected officials change, elected officials do have the ability of overruling said written direction. Action overruling written direction is easier than a constant updating of planning documents because council has better things to do (theoretically, though I'm not sure what that would be in Toledo's case).

posted by MsArcher on Mar 21, 2017 at 05:21:00 pm     #  

It wasn't just written direction, as I understand it, but two trips before the plan commission that were both denied. Then they went over their heads to City Council. (Can anyone verify the accuracy of that? I may be mixing some issues up with other things that have been going on)

posted by Johio83 on Mar 21, 2017 at 05:25:23 pm     #  

You are right John.

Mrs. Archer..what is the point of having a planning commission if their professional recommendation (which they made 2x) is simply overruled?

Perhaps the planning commission should be scrapped and all things of this nature should go straight to city council as it would be more efficient as "Action overruling written direction is easier than a constant updating of planning documents because council has better things to do."

I don't understand why council was so hell bent on this? There were other possible deals..including the Miller one. I also agree with much of the substance of Carty's response.

My guess is "follow the money." Trade unions feel that this will create jobs and support it. This they give their marching orders to the D's on council.

posted by Dappling2 on Mar 21, 2017 at 09:45:20 pm     #  

Johio83 posted at 05:25:23 PM on Mar 21, 2017:

It wasn't just written direction, as I understand it, but two trips before the plan commission that were both denied. Then they went over their heads to City Council. (Can anyone verify the accuracy of that? I may be mixing some issues up with other things that have been going on)

Kroger did not go over the heads of the plan commission, all zoning change applications go first to the plan commission, who makes a recommendation, and then to city council - even ones that the plan commissions approves of. I can't give specifics, but I am sure there have been requests that had plan commission recommended approval that council turned down.

So, any request goes to the plan commission. They review it, and look at a variety of things (nearby zoning, traffic, etc) including what the current land use plan for the city says about the parcel(s). With that information, they make a recommendation to city council, telling city council that the plan commission thinks city council should approve or reject the request. City council then has to vote on whether to accept or reject the request, taking into consideration all information that it wishes to consider, including the plan commission recommendation.

There are rules that if city council is going against the plan commission recommendation, more than a majority is required - I believe that goes both ways, a reject recommendation must be approved by a super majority, and a approve recommendation must be rejected by a super majority, but I may be wrong on the latter.

posted by MsArcher on Mar 21, 2017 at 09:45:36 pm     #   2 people liked this

Quite a few people on facebook and twitter are pissed off about the way city council voted. Let's see if they remember or forget when they vote when these council members are up for reelection

posted by classylady on Mar 21, 2017 at 10:21:13 pm     #   1 person liked this

classylady posted at 10:21:13 PM on Mar 21, 2017:

Quite a few people on facebook and twitter are pissed off about the way city council voted. Let's see if they remember or forget when they vote when these council members are up for reelection

How many of those disgruntled social media users live in Toledo?

Based upon past local elections, only a small percentage of Toledoans were interested in voting.

For this September's primary, voter turnout in Toledo will be 15 to 20 percent. That's based upon the trend since 2005.

The September 2017 primary chooses the top two mayoral candidates and the top 12 city council at-large candidates who will appear on the November ballot.

The district council seats are up for election in 2019.

http://toledo.oh.gov/government/city-council

Council Members by District

  • District 1: Tyrone Riley
  • District 2: Matt Cherry
  • District 3: Peter Ujvagi
  • District 4: Yvonne Harper
  • District 5: Tom Waniewski
  • District 6: Lindsay Webb

At-large Council Members

  • Cecelia Adams
  • Theresa Gabriel
  • Rob Ludeman
  • Sandy Spang
  • Steven Steel
  • Larry Sykes

The Kroger-Sisters vote was 10-2 in favor. Peter Ujvagi and Sandy Spang voted against.

Earlier this month, the Lucas County Democrat Party made its 2017 endorsements.

  • Paula Hicks-Hudson to remain mayor of Toledo
  • Cecelia Adams to remain an at-large Toledo City Council member
  • Larry Sykes to remain an at-large Toledo City Council member

The party also endorsed challengers for the at-large council seats:

  • Kurt Young
  • Gary Johnson
  • Nick Komives
  • Sam Melden

Wade Kapszukiewicz may still run for mayor of Toledo.

Unless people push the issue, I don't see this Kroger thing being a factor for any mayoral or at-large council candidate in this year's elections.

Any social media outrage about Kroger and Toledo City Council will be replaced by new faux outrage in about ... now.

Nobody will care or remember in August when a few hundred people start thinking about the primary.

But I do think that wannabee muckrakers should heed Dappling2's advice and follow the money. That's always a good place to start. But who has the time and resources for that?

posted by jr on Mar 21, 2017 at 11:26:31 pm     #  

Good point JR, I read some of the posts and most of them don't live in Toledo and live in the burbs. There is one person criticizing people on city council by name for voting this way and he lives in Perrysburg, another critic complaining lives in the Findlay area and another one lives in Temperance. AFIAK none of them have even shopped at that Kroger (it's the one I shop at the most) or would have much reason to be in that area very often.

Reminds me of the Promedica parking garage, quite a few people complaining don't even live in Toledo and most are l ucky if they went to the park once a year.

If Perrysburg, Findlay or Temperance decides to do something considered drastic you never see West Toledoian's making a big stink.

posted by classylady on Mar 22, 2017 at 09:37:08 am     #   3 people liked this

At first I wasn't so thrilled about this new store, but as probably being the one out of all of you that lives the closest, I think now I am actually happy about it. Selfishly, I hope that now I will be able to turn out onto Monroe St. without having to wait for all of the cars going/leaving Kroger that use the Value City Furniture entrance. But more importantly for our neighborhood, this will be a good thing. Sure, the traffic is an issue. But anytime you go somewhere that has a lot of retail (especially newer), there is traffic. I think the Spring Meadows area is bad....For years when, while traveling and I would come across a big shopping area, I would wish that Toledo would have something nice "like that". Sure, there is traffic, but look at the options of places to shop. Now, we are finally getting something similar in West Toledo. Buildings that actually have a personality (awnings, stylish architecture) as opposed to ugly big box buildings. Not to mention, new businesses, much needed hotels, and restaurants to our area. Now we "old West-enders", will get a sprucing up of our area which recently I feared was becoming the tatto parlor/piercings capital of Toledo. (I believe there are now 6 tatto shops between Douglas and Secor).

posted by llz on Mar 22, 2017 at 11:26:38 am     #   2 people liked this

-Now we "old West-enders"

Quick, somebody hold back upso! She didn't mean it!

posted by Johio83 on Mar 22, 2017 at 11:31:30 am     #   2 people liked this

I've accepted the traffic, its been gradually getting congested for the last several years. Certain times of the day you just have to avoid it or take alternate routes. So that doesn't bother me at all anymore.

I also agree, its nice to see a much wider selection of places to eat, especially for lunch. It actually feels like an up and coming area, very similar to where my buddy in Charlotte just built his home. (BTW, their traffic still destroys ours).

Also, based on reading the article it appears part of Krogers proposal was to keep 2 acres of green space and plant 450 additional trees. That is more than sufficient in my opinion.

Since the nuns left the house, the upkeep and landscaping has gone way down hill. The sidewalks aren't edged, weeds are everywhere, dead trees/limbs are everywhere. I full expect Kroger to keep it up much better based on their investment.

posted by Xbuckeyex on Mar 22, 2017 at 12:32:22 pm     #   1 person liked this

Woops, Johio83, didn't realize it came across as it did. I was not referring to anyone in the OWE. I was referring to all of us "oldies" (if 50 is old!); those raised and still living in West Toledo.

Xbuckeyex, Up and Coming is exactly the message I was trying to convey. It seemed like the area had gotten so tired. Now, it's beginning to feel new, almost like a new area in the burbs. And might I add that yes, I HAVE griped about the traffic in that area at times, BUT , we in Toledo are SPOILED when it comes to traffic. So it might take an extra 2-3 minutes to get through that area, big deal. You can get from point A to point B anywhere in this city in just about 20 minutes. NOTHING like other cities!
As far as the current grounds/upkeep.....I hope all the moles that lived on that property don't migrate to my neighborhood! Anyone know if a mole could/would travel underneath Monroe/Secor, or would that be too much? Maybe I better get to Anderson's and buy up all their mole repellents before they are all gone!

posted by llz on Mar 22, 2017 at 03:00:19 pm     #   2 people liked this

Traffic complaints in Toledo always crack me up. Aside from idiot drivers causing accidents that tie up traffic, we don't have traffic issues.

I'll take the "traffic congestion" that comes along with the growth of the area. I think its great that city council approved the Kroger project. I also love seeing the activity at the Westgate area where Whole Foods/WF 360 is supposed to open (IMHO, that will never happen).

Haven't been there yet but every time I pass the new Fusian restaurant, it is packed. Pizza Fire appears to have no shortage of business either. Can't wait for that area to be completed. And, since it is becoming more likely with every passing day that Sears' days are numbered, hopefully that big ugly box can be knocked down and more new development occurs.

posted by Foodie on Mar 22, 2017 at 03:01:01 pm     #   3 people liked this

I am surprised Sears just doesn't sell that piece of junk for a nice profit. But it is the only Sears in Northwest Ohio now that the Tiffin and FinDully mall stores have closed and when their JCP store closes in a couple months we'll have the only JCP in the area as well. The parking lot at Sears seems dead whenever I drive by there but perhaps they are doing ok being the only store in NWO.

Did anyone on city council bother asking the residents in that area that are impacted what they want or for their input or were they more concerned about what the union bosses (most of whom don't even live in Toledo) who fund their campaigns and endorsements want?

I'm glad to see that Kroger is going to keep a lot of the trees and greenspace and that the nuns are happy. But I wish council would get input from the people in the areas that will be impacted as well. As a downtown resident I'm thrilled Promedica is coming downtown as is every person I talked to that lives downtown. There were a lot of nay sayers complaining that don't even live or work downtown. Downtown residents are the ones that impacted by Promedica the most not people that live an hour away. Same with the Kroger decision, the west Toledo residents are the ones that are dealing with what happens more than anyone else

posted by classylady on Mar 22, 2017 at 04:01:58 pm     #   1 person liked this