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Toledo Talk   (musing about Lake Erie West and beyond)
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Toledo's Gang 'Crackdown'

As much as I'm behind getting rid of thugs and street gangs, I'm not willing to see the Constitution ripped to shreds to faciltate this, or any other 'safety' concern. Since 9-11, those that work for us - from the local level all the way up to the President, have continually eroded our Constitional rights and our liberties in the name of 'safety', and the 'beginning of the end' was the so-called 'Patriot Act' - aptly named by the 'spin doctors' and implying that if you don't agree with the Patriot Act, then you're not a Patriot!

Recently, Toledo's Police Chief Mike Navarre put his mouth in gear before engaging his brain and declared a 'crackdown' on the gangs and thugs in the city. To this end, Navarre said they "plan to practice what they call "stop and search." - stopping kids, patting them down, check for warrants and sieze weapons. then said "We're not going to violate anyone's civil rights. We're not going to do anything illegal." (This type of 'stop and frisk' is also known as a 'Terry Stop')

Where in the world did the City Law Director and the Chief take their Criminal Justice courses? In a VERY well known decision - Terry v Ohio - the US Supreme Court held that the police can do a 'limited' search for weapons based on a reasonable and articulable suspicion that the person stopped was "armed and dangerous" and has been, is, or was about to engage in a criminal act. In other words, when 'Terry' stopping someone, there must be a reasonable suspicion that criminal activity has, is or will be committed. It sounds to me like the 'plan' is to 'Terry' stop anyone and everyone that looks like they might belong in a gang, or appears to be a bunch of kids just 'hanging'.

As I said, I'm all for getting these low-lifes off the streets, but it MUST be done by keeping within the confines of the Constitution, and Navarre's 'plan' is way, way out of bounds.

Every city has a 'gang' problem, and Toledo's meager attempt to stop gangs is going to be throwing good money after bad. The City of Los Angeles has an entire Department called 'CRASH' - Community Resources Against Street Hoodlums and was instituted years ago, dedicated to ridding LA of gangs. Lots and lots of money are spent by CRASH, but you'd be hard pressed to drive many areas of LA and not find gang graffiti!

Now, I know some of you may disagree, saying Do whatever it takes!, but let me end by quoting Ben Franklin: "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety"

created by GraphicsGuy on Jul 22, 2008 at 08:21:04 pm     Comments: 19

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Comments ... #

The gang problem in Toledo is real, but this proposed tactic for searching folks just for being on the street is reminiscent of a Hitler-esque society. The blatant disregard for the Constitution is the most worrisome part of this whole thing. What ever happened to probably cause?

posted by DoknowDocare on Jul 22, 2008 at 10:12:45 pm     #



There's a bunch of dudes by my house that walk around with clubs. They smoke, drink, act like they own the place. They're surly, short-tempered, and a tad obtuse. They're generally misogynist yet dress like Elton John. I usually find myself yelling at them to learn how to f@#king drive. The law enforcers could just pick them all up whenever they want, but choose to look the other way.

posted by charlatan on Jul 22, 2008 at 11:14:12 pm     #



I don't entirely agree with the above posted policy, but I am willing to permit the searching and questioning of teenagers out past 1am. Why would any teenager need to be out later than midnight anyway?

It's funny, they feed these statements to the brainless public, but do little to enforce it.

posted by hockeyfan on Jul 23, 2008 at 02:03:51 am     #



I betcha $100 the average "thug" isn't thinking about the constitution and the bill of rights when they're about to mug/rape/kill you in your sleep, etc.

i'm all about people having rights, we just need better enforcement

just a thought

posted by Action on Jul 23, 2008 at 02:38:54 am     #



July 21, 2008 WNWO story titled Is Toledo headed for gang-war?

Three murders in the just a few days in Toledo have caused concern for Mayor Carty Finkbeiner and Toledo Police Chief Mike Navarre. The officials are fearing a gang-war in Toledo. Toledo Police say they will crack down on gangs, but some East Toledo residents don't believe that will be enough.

Do you think Carty's puppet, Mike Navarre, does anything on his own? Maybe the so-called crack down order came from Carty.

More from the WNWO story :

19-year old Kenny Kimble Junior was gunned down in what police are calling a gang shooting. Sunday night, someone torched A memorial set up for him. Friends believe, the gang that killed Kimble is sending a message. "They're trying to make a gang war out of it," says Kimble's friend, Jamie Jernigan.

NBC 24 has learned, and police are now confirming, this isn't just a gang problem. It's also a race problem, with African American gangs facing off against Hispanic gangs like the Cholos and the Locs. "We have seen an upsurge in recent weeks," Police Chief Mike Navarre says, "Even though one of these three homicides we believe is gang related, there have been a number of other shootings."

posted by jr on Jul 23, 2008 at 07:19:43 am     #



"Gang war". Now, that's funny. Too bad no rioting thug in Toledo can withstand a shot from a .308 rifle, winging in at over 3000 feet-per-second. Some war. Unlike Iraq, a Toledo gang war will be over in hours, and then the thugs can go out and collect their dead.

It's the presence of the armed, responsible and resistant populace that keeps the thug faction in line. If they want to get out of line anyway -- "out of line" meaning rioting and murdering -- then they invite the sort of reprisals that I'm talking about.

posted by GuestZero on Jul 23, 2008 at 07:47:40 am     #



Need a Granny Patrol, have all the grannies that belong to these yougens go out and grab them by the ears and take em back home.

posted by Linecrosser on Jul 23, 2008 at 11:53:53 am     #



gang crackdown? What about the urinators in East Toledo? Let's get our priorities in line.

posted by hockeyfan on Jul 23, 2008 at 01:54:13 pm     #



What the heck are we going to do if these gang members start carrying fireworks? The police will never pay attention to them and they'll be able to do anything they want.

posted by hockeyfan on Jul 23, 2008 at 01:55:02 pm     #



"They won't do a damed thing,! just like the inconsiderate assholes who have "Noise"amplified so damed loud you can hear them coming 3/4's of a mile a way....

Just how many of these morons do you suppose are drinking or smoking at 2 or 3 in the morning?? I've yet to see a police log saying these jerks are being stopped...."BS.BS.BS.BS!

posted by blacjac687 on Jul 23, 2008 at 09:57:13 pm     #



i fully support a crack down. frisking people is a.o.k in my eyes.. the cops can frisk me if they want to! im not breaking any laws

posted by upso on Jul 24, 2008 at 02:15:13 am     #



Since you're not breaking any laws, it's okay for the Police to stop your car anytime they see you and toss it?

They can come thru your home anytime of the day or night for a search of nothing in particular?

You don't mind if they set up a wiretap and listen to all of your telephone conversations or track each and every web site you visit?

We all want the gangs to go bye-bye, and we'd all like to help, but our Country has a Bill of Rights, and they are to be followed AT ALL TIMES across the board, equally. What is possibly in violation here is the 4th Amendment (illegal search & seizure) and the 14th Amendment (Due Process).

If we allow some Constitutional abuses, then why not all of them? Beginning today, you're no longer allowed to practice your religion! You've been accused of murder, and you didn't do it? Tough! Off to the gas chamber you go - no trial, no attorney - YOU LOSE! Got caught for speeding? Your fine is forfeiture of your house, cars and any other property you own!

Kind of takes on a different light now, doesn't it?

A fitting poem by Rev. Martin Niemoller

First they came for the Communists, and I didn't speak up,
because I wasn't a Communist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up,
because I wasn't a Jew.
Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up, because I was a Protestant.
Then they came for me, and by that time there was no oneleft to speak up for me.

posted by GraphicsGuy on Jul 24, 2008 at 02:52:01 am     #



Gang activity in my neighborhood's up, so the cops cracked down by closing my local police station. That'll show em!

posted by billy on Jul 24, 2008 at 09:30:11 am     #



they already ARE wiretapping many people's phonecalls and internet activity...

posted by upso on Jul 24, 2008 at 10:41:16 am     #



I little bit of reach to compare gang activity to busting into houses and taking away the right to practice religion don't you think?

It's people like you that scream bill of rights until your family member get's killed. Then you want to sue the city, the police, the gun manufacturer, the hospital and whoever else you want.

It's the ambulance chasing attorney mentality that have cops restricted and unable to do their job.

If you aren't going to parent your gang children, at least let the freaking cops do it for you and attempt to keep the rest of us safe.

posted by hockeyfan on Jul 24, 2008 at 01:00:12 pm     #



Looks like you missed the point entirely, hockey

posted by GraphicsGuy on Jul 24, 2008 at 02:17:11 pm     #



they already ARE wiretapping many people's phonecalls and internet activity

That must be the problem with the cops. They are so unbelievably bored with my phone calls, that they fall asleep and never get out on the street to fight crime.

Seriously, where are the guardian angels? Crimefighting Grannys? Neighborhood watches? Batman?, whoops, he's in jail.

posted by hockeyfan on Jul 24, 2008 at 03:25:13 pm     #



It's amusing to see that the poster Upso thinks he's not breaking any laws. There are far more laws on the books than anyone can obey. Got a pocketknife on you, Upso? The cops will confiscate it. Happened to step on the grass when taking a corner? Trespassing. How did you cross the street the last dozens times you did it? Jaywalking.

There's something fine and wonderful to be said for REASONABLE ... as having REASONABLE suspicions that a crime is occurring. When you're just walking down the street, there's essentially NO REASONABLE SUSPICION that you're up to anything at all that's legally actionable (other than the pissant little things I outlined above).

Frisk-a-thons are an abomination. They are designed to HARASS citizens that the police are given license to target. That's not in keeping with the structure of what's supposed to be our Republic. And it's shameful to have to explain any of this to you. I mean, really, Upso, where on Earth did you get your education in civics?

posted by GuestZero on Jul 24, 2008 at 06:04:07 pm     #



Hey 'Billy', I got the same problem in my neighborhood!

posted by CharlieA-Z on Jul 25, 2008 at 06:54:35 pm     #