This link, http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5igv9UaNEWFPDPhY5OV7X-UKPr-PwD8RU9I782, lays out some about the possible shutdown. Anyone have any comments about this proposed shutdown? According to this link, http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=200770928030, state police command officers have voted to stay on the job (thought they may not be able to legally). That seems like a good thing for public relations. Any ideas how our LEW will be affected (either positively or negatively) if this shutdown of the Michigan state government occurs.?
How Michigan State Shutdown Might Affect LEW
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A judge has said the state can't shut down the casinos in Detroit, http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070928/NEWS01/70928025/1008, so at least those people will stay employed.
posted by oldsendbrdy on Sep 28, 2007 at 03:42:20 pm #
Well, the DFP had an editorial that castigated both the governor and the legislators, http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070928/OPINION01/709280343/1008. What do we think on this side of the line? Is this a place where FedEx would want to relocate? My brother lives over the line (in Bedford Township), and is against any new taxes, but he doesn't want the schools to shut down. Will this be a true test case of what happens to a government that decides that "no taxes are good taxes". Is there anything to learn from Michigan, or is this a "special case"?
posted by oldsendbrdy on Sep 28, 2007 at 03:49:10 pm #
Looks like we can all raise hell in Michigan this week-end. No limits outside the town limits. Or else the town and village police will take up the slack. Too bad Michigan doesn't have red-light cameras like we do here in Toledo. They could catch the bad-guys then.
posted by oldsendbrdy on Sep 28, 2007 at 03:56:47 pm #
Would a budget extension, http://blog.mlive.com/kzgazette/2007/09/state_budget_arguments_take_to.html, such as proposed by Bishop have been better than the coming lay-offs? Granholm says that the state would have gone deeper into debt while at the same time making massive cuts in services. Is this true? Is there ever a good reason to impose taxes? Could this become a true "test case" for libertarianism?
posted by oldsendbrdy on Sep 28, 2007 at 04:04:40 pm #
This is Michigan Senate majority leader's response to Governor Granholm, http://www.senate.michigan.gov/gop/readarticle.asp?id=827&District=12.
posted by oldsendbrdy on Sep 28, 2007 at 04:06:47 pm #
These are problems that Michigan Republicans in their senate envision, http://www.senate.michigan.gov/gop/. I wonder if "volunteers" could be deputized by the state to fill some of duties of state employees until this crisis is resolved? Or perhaps "tax farmers" could be used. This is an idea employed by the emperor's of Rome to ensure revenue. The right to collect revenue from certain portions of the state was granted to a wealthy individual who gave the emperor a sum that he desired. The wealthy individual had the right (granted by the emperor) to collect taxes for a certain time as he desired.
posted by oldsendbrdy on Sep 28, 2007 at 04:12:46 pm #
This link leads to a "liberal" blog with a different point of view, http://www.michiganliberal.com/frontPage.do. It will be interesting to see what happens over the week-end. It makes me almost glad to be an Ohioan.
posted by oldsendbrdy on Sep 28, 2007 at 04:25:08 pm #
And here's the view from the other side of the aisle, http://migop.blogs.com/blog/2007/09/articles-of--23.html
posted by oldsendbrdy on Sep 28, 2007 at 04:26:29 pm #
I wonder what the majority of Michiganians (excluding those who live in the great swamp of Detroit) think about this? Do they feel their problem could be mostly solved if Detroit became part of Canada (if Canada would take the problem), or if the poorest half of the city's citizens emigrated elsewhere?
posted by oldsendbrdy on Sep 28, 2007 at 04:30:23 pm #
MonroeNews.com : How will state shutdown affect Monroe County?
The potential shut down of state government will certainly have affects on the county, but just how much is unsure at this point. The Monroe County Board of Commissioners planned, then canceled, a special meeting today to discuss the possible effects on the county. Board Vice Chairman Dale Zorn said probably 20 different departments receive some funding from the state. If the state shut downs, he said, speculation is the county won't be reimbursed for that time. If the county decides to keep those offices open, then, they will likely pay that cost.
Here's a link with the new Michigan GOP audio message concerning the shutdown. It is pretty good, http://www.migop.org/default.asp.
posted by oldsendbrdy on Sep 28, 2007 at 04:42:04 pm #
Cleveland.com story :
Michigan faces a 1.7 billion dollar deficit in their state government.The Democratic governor wants to hike the income tax by 18% up to 4.6%, and keep spending about the same. The Republicans see this as golden opportunity to affect some program cuts. What's going to shake out is probably a smaller tax increase with some spending cuts.
At risk is that Michigan has been undergoing a one state recession with an unemployment rate north of 7%. Raising taxes won't help.
Anyway, let's hope that Michigan can keep their head and not shoot the productive income earners they have left. It would not be good for Ohio if Michigan turned into the Mississippi of the North.
As mentioned in another posting about economic conditions in large metro areas:
The bottom 10 from the Fall 2005 rankings by the Milken Institute shows 9 of the 10 cities are from Ohio or Michigan :
191. Hickory-Lenoir-Morganton NC
192. Detroit-Livonia-Dearborn, MI
193. Grand Rapids-Wyoming MI
194. Cleveland-Elyria-Mentor OH
195. Warren-Farmington Hills-Troy, MI
196. Toledo OH
197. Lansing-East Lansing MI
198. Canton-Massillon OH
199. Youngstown-Warren-Boardman OH-PA
200. Flint MIAnd the bottom 10 from the Fall 2007 bizjournals rankings shows 7 of the 10 cities are from Ohio or Michigan :
91 Grand Rapids
92 New Haven, Conn.
93 Springfield, Mass.
94 Toledo, Ohio
95 Lansing, Mich.
96 Cleveland
97 Dayton
98 Youngstown, Ohio
99 New Orleans
100 DetroitAnd now the bottom 10 from the Fall 2007 rankings released this week by the Milken Institute still shows 9 of the 10 cities are from Ohio or Michigan
191 Youngstown-Warren-Boardman, OH-
192 Grand Rapids-Wyoming, MI
193 Cleveland-Elyria-Mentor, OH
194 Flint, MI
195 Warren-Troy-Farmington Hills, MI
196 Toledo, OH
197 Detroit-Livonia-Dearborn, MI
198 Canton-Massillon, OH
199 Hickory-Lenoir-Morganton, NC
200 Lansing-East Lansing, MI (MSA)
JR, I just started this to get some response, but maybe you could put something on the LEW portion that you maintain. Are these guys running over a cliff, or is there anything positive that could come out of a shut-down? I know you look mainly at business, but what will (or could) it do to that? I seem to remember you were looking at LEW as an area within 100 miles with Toledo as its center. Certainly that takes in southern Michigan, and Detroit. What spillover will it have into our economy (if any), or could it have positive effects. Could we see a migration of "brains" from Ann Arbor to our side of the border if this continued long enough?
posted by oldsendbrdy on Sep 28, 2007 at 04:48:48 pm #
If this shutdown kept up long enough would we see people leaving Detroit because of a cut in "benefits" from the state? Would they seek residences in other, more "liberal" states (including Ohio)? Could we see a flood of "immigrants" from Detroit?
posted by oldsendbrdy on Sep 28, 2007 at 04:58:51 pm #
I think it will probably be a net benefit for the state. I have a general rule that says, "When the government isn't doing anything, everyone is better off."
All joking aside, long-term I think this could be a major benefit for Michigan because it forces everyone, politician and citizen, to revisit their tax policy, the state government's role, and their economy. Whenever a state as a whole revisits issues like those it will almost always result in improvement.
One thing is clear, the status quo has quickly turned Michigan into the most economically depressed state in the country. Michigan is in such a horrible state of affairs a piecemeal or step-wise approach to solving the multitude of problems won't work. They need a top-to-bottom reorganization and reprioritization of issues in order to pull themselves out of the spiral they are in. The only way to accomplish that, however, is with a groundswell of public sentiment pushing politicians toward that complete overhaul. A government shutdown could be just what the doctor ordered to create that groundswell of support for change.
From what I could find Louisiana and Alaska, http://www.bea.gov/bea/newsrel/GSPNewsRelease.htm, are lagging behind Michigan and Ohio in GDP. I wonder why Alaska is experiencing negative GDP? Is it the free handouts of revenue from oil to the citizens of that state? Maybe there is no need to strive for wealth in the Eden. A lesson to us all.
posted by oldsendbrdy on Sep 29, 2007 at 11:13:53 am #
When are we gonna call this sustained slowdown and recession or controlled depression?
Inflation, wage stagnation, rising unemployment, housing bubble?
The worst of all worlds.
If wages would have risen with productivity, tax revenues would have gone up, need for social services would have went down, and employment would have increase. Increased employment would have meant the increased alternative for competing products meaning prices would have been more stable. Or so the theory goes.
I heard a report on NPR yesterday morning - it was a recognizable male reporter from Michigan Radio (but I can't remember who and I can't find his name on their staff page) reporting in with the national host.
This local reporter's "analysis" identified the root cause as a downturn in the automotive industry over the last decade. This, of course, reduced revenues to the state. If that wasn't bad enough, according to him, there have been numerous tax cuts including some that were phased in over a number of years. Of course, this also represents a reduction in state revenue.
The tax cuts and their implied recklessness became the prime focus of the reporter and the approving national host as it ended up dominating the conversation.
So, since it was a forgone conclusion that a reduction in state revenue was the problem from their perspective, then it became a forgone conclusion that increasing state revenue will be the solution. Of course, there was no discussion about how this could be accomplished by spurring the economy - these are liberals. The only tool at their disposal, and thus the only solution discussed, was how taxes could be raised and how tax cuts could be rolled back.
Never once was there a discussion about spending and how it might be reduced. That, literally, never even occured to these two. I mean, really, that is half the equation - wouldn't any serious analysis include it? Instead, it was implied from this discussion that spending is what it is. It is static. There is no use discussing it because we are slaves to it. We HAVE to raise enough money to feed it. There will be no attention given to its size - only what it takes satisfy its hunger.
Sadly, babbleman, that seems to be the approach in Toledo as well...
posted by MaggieThurber on Oct 02, 2007 at 08:16:28 am #
Well, one way you could reduce taxes would be to remove all state aid to the elderly. This would cut millions from taxes. Another option might be to remove all state aid to Michigan citizens, period.
Taxes would be for "services", and other benefits could be paid locally (if it was wished). A libertarian response would be "service fees". You call a state trooper, and you pay via credit card for his response. Eventually, it may come to that.
posted by oldsendbrdy on Oct 02, 2007 at 09:56:14 am #
We are used to "shopping" for services. If we want a new carpeting we usually "shop" around. We check out the "sales" for other items.
Why can't it be the same for government "services". You need a cop you could call the state police, or your local police. Which charges less for the call? And it certainly would reduce the number of "nuisance" calls. People think twice about using services they have to call for. A lot of our neighborhood disputes would be settled without bringing in the police. If the one who called the cops was the one responsible for the bill s/he would be less likely to be "nosy". Things would be settled in a "libertarian" manner (with knives in the quiet).
posted by oldsendbrdy on Oct 02, 2007 at 10:01:50 am #
oldsendbrdy, I don't completely follow your thinking. Maintaining law and order is not only a priority - it could be argued to be the ONLY essential activity of a state government.
If a state were to reduce its brokering of charity (in your terms "aid"), I don't see why it would have to also reduce its spending on law and order much less change its structure to a pay-as-you-go service. There is no real connection there.
Without even looking at the details - I am willing to bet that Michigan could instantly resolve its problems by reducing the amount of public charity it is trying to broker.
This would put the money back into the hands of individuals who could then provide the charity they see fit on the terms that they see fit. And politicians couldn't use it anymore for their own power.
But, the left might say, individuals will not give to charity. Therefore the charity recipients will be left empty handed. Therefore, government has to do it or it won't get done. Of course, this is a matter of the trust one puts in individuals not to mention the value one puts on their liberty. And those two issues can be argued all day.
But from a totally practical and non-philosopical perspective, here is the logical decision process as I see it:
There is a fork in the road. If we go to the left, the government takes money from individuals and passes it out on their terms. We know that road is a dead end because you are looking at the result right now in Michigan.
To the right, the individuals keep their money and give it to charity as they see fit. Down that road is another fork. One side is a dead end if people don't support their neighbors. And down the other road is sustainability.
So, there is only one road to sustainability - it may not be a gaurantee - but there is a chance that it will work based on the character of the society. To the left there is a gaurantee of failure - regardless of the society's character because it is simply not economically workable.
Here is the latest comments on the Detroit Free Press from Governor Granholm, http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070928/NEWS06/70928070/1008.
posted by oldsendbrdy on Sep 28, 2007 at 03:39:02 pm #