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Captain of the varsity cheerleader team? Excellent! My congratulations to you and your spouse; you've obviously done a good job raising your child.

I thought that it was common knowledge these days that TPS was staffed by incompetents who couldn't find or hold a job in private industry. Evidently I was wrong.

While there are certainly a few highly qualified, hard working individuals employed by TPS, they are the true minority (got that, Purnhrt?) in the school system. The rank and file are a waste of space and should be either replaced, which is the best idea, or trained to be good instructors.

School policy that forbids clothing without a collar and forces cheerleaders to wear warm up pants is the sort of thing dictated by petty tyrants who are not terribly bright. I've even seen a few school teachers who couldn't compose a coherent paragraph. Is it really any surprise that ignorant people would dictate equally ignorant policy?

posted by madjack on Oct 16, 2007 at 10:01:08 am     #

First, I think you are wrong to denigrate TPS. The vast majority of the teachers and staff I know are competent, hard working, and very helpful. I say this from personal experience that covers many years. Keep in mind when you say such denigrating remarks you reinforce that perspective to your student and the rest of the community. Much of what is seen as good and bad in a community comes from how that community views itself. Overall, TPS is a great system.

Second, it was not the teachers or administrator's rule to have a dress code, it was decided by the school board which was elected by the citizens of Toledo. I think it was believed that a dress code would deter gangs and at the same time help students to have a better attitude about themselves. I applaud the dress code and think it teaches my kids to have a little more pride in themselves. Well, the only way to have a dress code is to keep it absolutely with no exceptions because as soon as you retreat even a little bit you may as well repeal it.

Thirdly, if you feel you could do better then I encourage you to become a school board member, a teacher or an administrator. They need capable people who have strong ideas about what should be done. Then you can see what it is like to have people denigrate you and call you incompetent when you are trying to do your best to enforce the rules and codes enacted.

Lastly, I think parents need to really support teachers. All I hear about is how bad TPS is and that the teachers need this and that ...etc. From my perspective the real problem with TPS schools is TPS parents who are either indifferent or antagonistic with respect to education. TPS parents need to learn how to raise disciplined kids from an early age and make them listen to authority figures like teachers. They need to make them do their homework and respect teachers. There is nothing wrong with TPS teachers, but rather it is the parents who need a whole lot of improving if they want to have a world class school district. And no, I have never been a public school teacher.

In any event, TPS needs your suppor to build it up. Tearing it down is easy.

posted by ilovetoledo on Oct 16, 2007 at 11:11:22 am     #

ilovetoledo, those things DID happen back in the day, but the've since gotten rid of the paddles, the pleade of alegence, etc. things have only gone downhill since. Oh and don't forget how "cool" it is to have that "gangster" attitude nowadays.

posted by tm2 on Oct 16, 2007 at 11:29:09 am     #

What "things DID happen" do you refer to? Also, I think the Pledge of Allegiance has not changed. As always, they still say it in grammer schools, no?

If there is a question about the cause of negative elements in the school such as a lack of discipline, achievement, gangs...then who do you think is more responsible for contributing to and controlling such behavior? Teachers or parents? My point is that the first two posters unfairly maligned TPS. Of course no school district is perfect but I think Toledo has as competent teachers as any other school district. It is my personal opinion that the real problem is TPS parents who do not take the trouble to discipline their children themselves from an early age and who do not support a good attitude toward education and teachers in general.

So, what do you think?

posted by ilovetoledo on Oct 16, 2007 at 11:40:33 am     #

Out of curiosity, ilovetoledo, how many kids do you have , or have had in TPS?

You need to take off those "rose colored glasses".

The administration is afraid to deal with the problem causing individuals, so they come up with ridiculous, rigid rules.

posted by JeepMaker on Oct 16, 2007 at 11:56:44 am     #

I have 2 children in TPS. They have been there since grade school and are now in highschool.

Please tell me what statements I have made that would indicate that I have "Rose colored glasses." I simply said we have a great system. I also said that from my perspective the main problem is not the teachers but parents who do not put the effort into disciplining their children academicall and socially so that they are fit to go to a school to learn.

Second, as I said the dress code was put into effect by the Board, not the teachers or the administrators. What should they do? Ignore the dress code? Wouldn't you call them incompetant and lazy if they ignored enforcing the dress code? If you don't like it, you can work to have it repealed.

posted by ilovetoledo on Oct 16, 2007 at 12:05:01 pm     #

ilovetoledo, i see your point about the parents are a lot to blame for bad behavior, however if a teacher was able to punish the students like they did when i was in school, i think that may be helpful, maybe, maybe not? but i guess my point it that, the teachers are no longer able to do that and if they were perhaps kids would be better behaved while in school.

I agree with jeepmaker the board can't or wont deal with gang colors so they come up with a stupid dress code, yea like THAT really helped, they just do different things to display their "colors". Also i do think our school board are total morons, what do they do in a budget crisis? forget getting rid of adminstrators they lay off teachers. yea thats a real smart thing to do. Im also real tired of my son having to walk 5 miles home because he skipps the bus just to avoid the gang bangers.

posted by tm2 on Oct 16, 2007 at 12:16:54 pm     #

Also, I want to say that it is an easy out to blame TPS or teachers rather than taking responsibility for your own child's behavior or performance. If you are permissive, and have let your children get away without respecting you or your rules for your home, why should you expect them to go to school and be any different? A teachers job is to teach, not to make up for a parent who chooses not to take responsibility for their own child. If you do not have a good attitude toward education, and do not make the effort to grow in learning yourself, and if you do not take the trouble to reinforce a positive attitude toward learning, why should the student go to school and suddenly want to learn? If you run down teachers and the school system and do not respect it, why should the students?

It is very easy to blame the teachers and the school system instead of taking responsiblity yourself for your own child and the result is that kids learn that if they have a problem it is somebody elses fault. They learn to blame others and end up never taking responsiblity themselves.

My kids experiences in TPS have been good. Most of their teachers are excellent and they learn and they get As and they get high scores on standardized tests. They have no discipline problems because I taught them to behave and to respect teachers and to do what they are supposed to do. Also, every now and then there are some teachers who are less than perfect but I tell them to do their best anyway because that is what life will be like. You have to learn how to deal with people who are less than steller. Anyway, their only complaints about TPS are the kids whose behavior make it difficult for everyone at times. That you cannot blame on teachers. That is the fault of parents.

posted by ilovetoledo on Oct 16, 2007 at 12:19:28 pm     #

I still say that what you are trying to do is impossible. There is no way that a board and the teachers can do what you ask. The best you can expect is what you have now. The responsiblity lay with parents and if they do not take responsiblity nothing will change even if you have the most perfect teachers, administrators, and school board because there is no way that they can substitute for parents. So, don't blame them.

posted by ilovetoledo on Oct 16, 2007 at 12:22:49 pm     #

Also, as far as discipline goes, that should be the responsibility of parents. I never hit my kids but they listen to me. If you were a teacher or a school board member what would you do to change the discipline system and to make it work better? I am sure they would like to know. I still think that if a student makes it to first grade and doesn't basically know how to listen to an adult authority figure it is probably too late. If that lack of reinforcement at the home continues at throughout the school years, then what hope is there for the school system?

posted by ilovetoledo on Oct 16, 2007 at 12:33:06 pm     #

im not arguing with you. I was giving you MY opinion based on MY personal experinces except i still think the board members are morons (so we will have to agree to disagree on that one). I remember when our teachers were tough and we were AFRAID to mis-behave, maybe its just that times change. BUT we starting getting a gang problem around 1990 and its getting worse NOT better. is that the parents fault, sure is, but MY kid isn't one of them, my kid live under VERY sctrict rules, i just hate the fact that there are gangs in the schools and the treachers are powerless to to do anything (im not blaming the teachers, if you catch my drift)

posted by tm2 on Oct 16, 2007 at 12:53:24 pm     #

I understand you, however I think it only reinforces a negative perception if we dismiss the board members as morans. This is only adds fuel to the fire. Why should teachers, administrators, and students listen to morons? Also, before you dismiss them as morons you should go to the meetings and see what options are within their power to alleviate problems. It may not be as easy as you think. Also, I encourage you and other people who have strong opinions to run for the school board. I am not being sarcastic but I seriously think they could use new people. At least we should all be more judicious with whom we elect.

posted by ilovetoledo on Oct 16, 2007 at 01:07:41 pm     #

Ok i can see your point again, let me rephrase, when the scool board decides to lay off teachers rather than extra administrators, to me that is a moronic act. I dont care if its more difficult than i think, becasue teachers are more important that administrators.

posted by tm2 on Oct 16, 2007 at 01:25:00 pm     #

First, I think you are wrong to denigrate TPS. The vast majority of the teachers and staff I know are competent, hard working, and very helpful.

Competent and hard working they may be, at least in your opinion. They just don't quite get the job done, do they? Here's the evidence of their competence and hard work:

http://www.ode.state.oh.us/reportcardfiles/2006-2007/DIST/044909.PDF

Let me list a small part of these results. In the eighth grade the State of Ohio requires that 75% of all students pass the 8th grade proficiency test. Categories are:

Reading: 59.2% passed
Math: 41.1% passed
Science: 30.9% passed
Social Studies: 21.8% passed

Which means that four out of every ten children can't read a newspaper, which is supposed to be written at the eighth grade level. About six out of ten are incapable of understanding interest rates, compound interest or the rate of inflation. They won't be able to understand how and why the credit card company is handing them the shaft. Seven out of ten won't understand global warming, acid rain or pollution. They won't ever understand why burning a rain forest is a terrible idea. Eight out of ten failed social studies, so I tend to believe that these students won't understand the electoral college, the Bill of Rights or that Australia is a country on the other side of the world. But I'll bet that these students who failed will eventually understand the consumer's position in the criminal justice system.

I work in private industry, and if I produced results like these I wouldn't be working long. I'd be busy filing for unemployment and trying to get my teaching certificate. And yes, that's a shot.

Well, the only way to have a dress code is to keep it absolutely with no exceptions because as soon as you retreat even a little bit you may as well repeal it.

So repeal it. Stop punishing the entire populace along with the trouble makers.

what would you do to change the discipline system and to make it work better? I am sure they would like to know.

They wouldn't. What the school board wants to know is, individually, what will it take to get re-elected, and collectively, what will it take to pass a new levy. What the teachers want to know is how salary and benefits can be increased while the work load is decreased.

I've read many sound ideas for improving the Toledo Public School system written by people much more intelligent and with more experience than I have. These ideas are ignored because the methods suggested benefit the students while causing change and discomfiture to the administrators and staff.

I read and hear a lot of complaints about the parents. Parents don't support the teachers, it is the parent's responsibility to teach the child discipline, the parents refuse to get involved... the list is endless. Tell me, ilovetoledo, how easy is it for a parent to monitor classes at any Toledo public school? How about a non-parent, who is paying for the school with their taxes? Go ahead, ilovetoledo, find out and post the answer.

The TPS system is broken. It isn't being mended. While the system is broken it continues to provide little to no education to the children. I believe that the only way to fix the system is by the use of extremely heavy handed union busting, administrator firing authority from the State of Ohio, supported by the Federal government. Until then, the situation will only get worse.

posted by madjack on Oct 16, 2007 at 01:39:19 pm     #

For my own personal reasons I have been completely against the "uniform dress code" since the day it started. But, I do not fight it and I fully enforce it with my child that is in TPS. What burns me up, however, is when I walk into my childs high school and see all the lovely young men walking around with their pants around their ankles and their shirts 4 sizes too big so they they cover their rear ends and still can tuck their shirts in so that they can just barely skate by on getting away with it. I've seen this EVERY time I've gone into my childs school and frankly I'm sick of it.

If you're going to have a "uniform dress code" ENFORCE it! But that's just my opinion. Collar, no collar, what's the big deal? Kids are still allowed to roam the halls wearing said "uniforms" that are, without a doubt, non compliance. Girls have bared midriffs, young men still show their undergarments, what's the difference if they're doing it wearing specific colors/styles or clothing of their choice? None!

posted by justsimplyholly on Oct 16, 2007 at 02:17:48 pm     #

Since you have seen fit to answer me point by point I will do the same.

"Competent and hard working they may be, at least in your opinion. They just don't quite get the job done, do they? Here's the evidence of their competence and hard work:I work in private industry, and if I produced results like these I wouldn't be working long. I'd be busy filing for unemployment and trying to get my teaching certificate. And yes, that's a shot."

Here again I blame the parents more than the teachers. My kids and their friends went to TPS and they are honor students and the ones that I have known who graduated are doing well. My children and their friends read great and do way above average on achievement tests so the education is there is one wants it. They went to TPS all their lives. So did I and I have advanced degrees and all kinds of academic awards in college.
*******************
"The dress code
So repeal it. Stop punishing the entire populace along with the trouble makers."

Great, approach the schoolboard about it and gather petitions to repeal it. I and many other parents appreciate it. This still has nothing to do with the competency of the teachers or the board.
********************

"what would you do to change the discipline system and to make it work better? I am sure they would like to know.
I've read many sound ideas for improving the Toledo Public School system written by people much more intelligent and with more experience than I have. These ideas are ignored because the methods suggested benefit the students while causing change and discomfiture to the administrators and staff."

So, in essence you have no suggestions. Very well, we will move on.

*********************

"I read and hear a lot of complaints about the parents. Parents don't support the teachers, it is the parent's responsibility to teach the child discipline, the parents refuse to get involved... the list is endless. Tell me, ilovetoledo, how easy is it for a parent to monitor classes at any Toledo public school? "

If parents disciplined their kids in the home from an early age, then discipline problems at school would not be a big problem. I can honestly say I have never had a single discipline problem in school where the teacher had to call me and it required some sort of intervention. It just does not exist for me because I was not lazy and I cared. I took the trouble to teach my kids from a young age how to behave in public and if I can do it anyone can.
**************

"How about a non-parent, who is paying for the school with their taxes? Go ahead, ilovetoledo, find out and post the answer. "

“How about a non-parent” What? Your antecedent to this question is the phrase “…how easy is it for a parent to monitor classes at any Toledo public school?” What am I supposed to do with “How about a non-parent, who is paying for the school with their taxes?” If you are a non-parent then you show that you have no idea what you are talking about. If you are saying you have a stake in public schools because you pay taxes, then sure, you have a right to your opinion. However, you should try to be a part of the solution, not the problem. The solution is not more teachers, more buildings, newer buildings, different board members…etc…the solution is parents who care about what their kids are doing.

****************

"The TPS system is broken. It isn't being mended. While the system is broken it continues to provide little to no education to the children. I believe that the only way to fix the system is by the use of extremely heavy handed union busting, administrator firing authority from the State of Ohio, supported by the Federal government. Until then, the situation will only get worse."

Well, my kids are doing great and they are going to college and are not having any trouble. Neither are their friends. A good education and a good environment is available for those kids and parents who want it. You can oversimplify all you want. You can fire all the teachers you want and bust all the unions you want but nothing will improve until parents take responsibility for their kids. Incidentally, Charter schools were supposed to address the problems you mention in this paragraph. But if you have been keeping tabs on them you will see that they have even more problems than public schools and much lower test scores. See, it is not as simple as you say.

posted by ilovetoledo on Oct 16, 2007 at 02:36:31 pm     #

I reiterate:
Tell me, ilovetoledo, how easy is it for a parent to monitor classes at any Toledo public school?

You didn't answer because you can't. Teachers claim they want parents to be involved. They don't.

So tell me, ilovetoledo, if a parent wanted to monitor their child's class, just to see what went on during class, how difficult would that be? After all, that parent wants to be involved.

posted by madjack on Oct 16, 2007 at 06:20:15 pm     #

Well, my kids are doing great and they are going to college and are not having any trouble.

Which puts them in the upper ten percentile. Congratulations on doing an excellent job of raising your kids. But, sadly, the figures I quoted are not just for your children. All children who attend TPS are tested, and you can see the results.

posted by madjack on Oct 16, 2007 at 06:26:34 pm     #

One thing I've never understood about TPS. Every year when it nears the time for the state mandated testing, regular curriculum stops.
For at least a week they concentrate solely on how to do well on the test.

Since I presume the testing is to determine whether the curriculum is working, isn't this kind of like cheating?

posted by JeepMaker on Oct 16, 2007 at 06:45:16 pm     #

I think those percentages quoted say a lot more about the parents than TPS.

I happen to know a local high school science teacher and have heard the horror stories about how well the students are prepared for classes, the ones that bother showing up, and their studying/homework habits.

posted by jhostetler on Oct 16, 2007 at 06:58:44 pm     #

"Tell me, ilovetoledo, how easy is it for a parent to monitor classes at any Toledo public school?"

Please show me where I said this was easy? All I said was that I would blame most of the problems on the parents rather than the teachers. Then again if they don't notice how their kids act at home I am sure they wouldn't know at school. If parents did a good job then their monitoring the classroom would not be necessary. However, I ask my kids what goes on and I email teachers.

"You didn't answer because you can't. Teachers claim they want parents to be involved. They don't."

I think you are wrong. What teacher wouldn't want parents to discipline their own children and to teach them to respect and love education?

"So tell me, ilovetoledo, if a parent wanted to monitor their child's class, just to see what went on during class, how difficult would that be? After all, that parent wants to be involved."

I am sure if you wanted to attend the class you could. You could email the teacher. Ask your kids what is going. Involvement means following up at home and making sure kids have the right attitude towards education, learning, and cooperation. This begins at home and should follow them to school. It means making sure your kids do their homework. Parental involvement does not mean following your kids to school or knowing every detail of what goes on. Parental involvement in the education process of a child begins at birth and it involves positively shapping that child's attitude toward learning and discipline and reinforcing it until they leave home. That is parental involvement.

posted by madjack on Oct 16, 2007 at 06:20:15 pm #

Well, my kids are doing great and they are going to college and are not having any trouble.

Which puts them in the upper ten percentile. Congratulations on doing an excellent job of raising your kids. But, sadly, the figures I quoted are not just for your children. All children who attend TPS are tested, and you can see the results.

posted by madjack on Oct 16, 2007 at 06:26:34 pm #

posted by ilovetoledo on Oct 16, 2007 at 07:00:18 pm     #

Also, the fact that a good number of TPS students do well shows that the problem is not necessarily the teachers as much as the attitudes they receive from their parents. If you want a good education for your child at TPS it is there.

posted by ilovetoledo on Oct 16, 2007 at 07:02:09 pm     #

I am sure if you wanted to attend the class you could.

But you don't know, do you? The real answer here is that you can't. You aren't allowed, and neither is any other parent or, for that matter, taxpayer.

Parents are not allowed to watch a class in session, and for good reason. If the parents could see what was going on in those class rooms, they might object. There might be a concerned interest in the way school is being conducted, and eventually those four in ten children who can't read a newspaper might learn to read.

strong language alert

Those kids didn't have parents like your kids did, and the very last chance that any of them will ever have to learn to read is now history. Blame the parents all you like, blame the voters who refused the levy, blame the kids who couldn't learn. The real blame rests on the teachers who didn't attend to that 40% before they entered the eighth grade, and teach them to read whether they wanted to learn or not. Because, ilovetoledo, if you can read you can do pretty much anything you like. You can even, still, apprentice yourself to an attorney, pass the bar and become a lawyer. You can get a GED and enter college. Any number of opportunities are available to you. If you can read, that is. But those kids can't, and they are well and truly screwed. It wasn't the voters, it wasn't the administrators, it wasn't the parents. It was the teachers that screwed them over.

You know, I think Purnhrt and I have something in common. That's frightening.

posted by madjack on Oct 16, 2007 at 07:44:26 pm     #

You are entitled to your opinion. I still say the onus of education lay with parents and it is their duty to provide teachable children. I will also say that parents who refuse to take responsibility and blame the teachers are in denial and are part of the problem too.

posted by ilovetoledo on Oct 16, 2007 at 08:07:04 pm     #

Madjack, how do you teach someone to read whether they want to or not? What I learned in school only reinforced what I learned outside it. The reading I learned in first and second grade was a chore. It was when I picked up a Walt Disney comic book about dinosaurs that I wanted to learn more. And that meant reading words that the school had not taught yet. By the time I was tested in fourth grade I was reading eighth grade 7th month. But I wasn't dislexic. I watched tv (only Channels 7, 9, and 13 then off of "rabbit ears", not over 60 like there is now). I had a radio, but no computer, Gameboy, or stereo.

Our culture is different. Blame it on the teachers if you want, but nobody passes 100% of anything. When I was in school a lot of kids failed (for whatever reason) in the Washington Schools system. They could look forward to jobs as menial laborers and mechanics. Those days are probably gone. Maybe some of the kids will come around, and learn to read through some program other than school. But a lot of them (I believe) can't learn, and no amount of brow-beating of the teachers will make a difference. Take away the unions, hire teachers on the basis of their "bleeding hearts" to teach, and see how long they stay. See how many want to teach when they are confronted by some a-hole who believes "little Johnny" isn't getting the break he deserves, but doesn't want any discipline, either. What fool would want to teach when there are jobs paying much more out in the world, and all you deal with now are mostly a-holes.

posted by oldsendbrdy on Oct 16, 2007 at 08:37:38 pm     #

I am a TPS elementary teacher. If you want to visit the classroom of a child, at least in the elementary level, you simply need to give the teacher 24 hour notice. However, I know of many teachers who have an open door policy. You do have to check in at the office first and be annnounced, security reasons, but then you are welcomed in. There are teachers who stick to the 24 hour notice rule but that is their right based on the contract. I do take offense at being told I am inadequate as a human being because I chose to teach, but I'm used to it: the old joke, those that can't, teach. I would challenge you however to spend a day or two with me and face the challenges I do and then tell me how to improve. I recently had a parent walk into my room, unannounced because the doors to the building could not be locked, and confront her child about who stole her $20 that morning. This was a parent who didn't show up to open house, didn't introduce herself, just walked in yelling. The following week her child decided that she did not want to follow the rules and had to be escorted to the office after a twenty minute temper tantrum. While I was escorting her the the office, because she would not go on her own, she chose to backhand me several times in the face and head. After all of this I went back to class and continued teaching my students. That was at least 30-45 minutes of lost instructional time, all because a parent did not teach her child to respect others. Teachers lose a great deal of instructional time to handling discipline problems, time that could be well spent teaching kids to learn how to read. As far as TPS teachers dedicating the week before testing to preparing the kids, that's what all school districts do. We are forced to teach to the test because that it how we are judged by the public and the state and federal government. Yes, the curriculum is what is to be tested, however it makes sense to help the kids get comfortable with the format of the test because often times it differs from their traditional day to day activities and assignments. When your child has a test, don't you spend time reviewing the night or nights before, even though you have done the homework all week/month long? It is the same concept. So, thank you to all for the support and remember you have your child for the first 5 yrs of their life and at least 6 hours every night plus weekends and holidays, I only have them for 6 hours Mon.-Fri., if they come to school.

posted by marlos on Oct 16, 2007 at 10:55:12 pm     #

Maybe Madjack is right. Maybe we should forget all the other subjects, and just teach reading. Those students who show the ability to read can move on to other subjects, but perhaps we need special classes just for reading. An intensive course. All day on words, every day, until the little suckers can "read". Pay the teacher(s) extra for dealing with the real dummies. It would be a thankless task, but a necessary one. And put those who are discipline problems in restraint, and flash sentences at them until the can "read". No recess for those who don't "measure up". Maybe we could go so far as to make it into a "bootcamp" for kids if "reading" is the be-all, and end-all of education. Instead of "No Child Left Behind" have "No Child Gets Out" (24 hour a day confinement until the kid "makes the grade").

posted by oldsendbrdy on Oct 17, 2007 at 12:09:31 am     #

I wonder how my way of "educating" would compare to the cost of a prison system. If you confined the "juvenile delinquents" (make "failure to learn" a misdemeanor) 24 hours a day until they met the standards for their grade you would need about 2.5 times as many teachers as you have today (six hours a day for each teacher)for probably 20% of the student population. I figure half of the 40% that MadJack alluded to would get the message, and begin to make a real effort to learn from their "crappy" teachers. These confined "children" would be under a teacher's watchful eye from, say, 8:00 AM until 11:00 PM in "boot camp". No recess, just reading, until they either succeeded or the state decided there were other options. How recalcitrant these "truants" (present in body, absent in mind) would be, and how much "recidivism" there would be would determine how many years these "truants" would be in the system. And like, sex offenders, we should keep these "truants" in the system until they "made the grade", even into adulthood. People who can't read might well be a danger to us all. I bet after a few months of six or seven day work-weeks (those who went to some religious service could get that time off from "reading") a lot of these kids would accept the discipline of a regular school system.

posted by oldsendbrdy on Oct 17, 2007 at 12:28:52 am     #

Boy, am I dumb. We already have such a system. There are kids in juvenile detention. My friend has a daughter who teaches at a state juvenile facility near Columbus. She has had some real duzies, and she can't make them learn (and this is a prison). Maybe we need to change the rules on confinement. You can't leave the juvenile confinement system until you learn to read (at your age level) no matter what you did. Make "failure to learn" a misdemeanor, or even a felony. Whatever it takes to keep these "offenders" in confinement until they show they are at an education level with their peers. If we can't require them to meet an education standard in prison (where we have all the control) why would we assume we can do it in a "free" public school?

posted by oldsendbrdy on Oct 17, 2007 at 12:36:06 am     #

I think it was believed that a dress code would deter gangs and at the same time help students to have a better attitude about themselves

I wonder what TPS will do when some new gang starts wearing the colors white and kakhi? Are they going to ban these colors from the uniform policy? What about lettered school jackets? Maybe the jackets make the students who can't earn them feel like they are "outsiders" and damage their sef-esteem. Should we then ban school jackets so as to protect the feelings of those less athletic and unpopular.

To not allow the Captain of the Varsity Cheerleader team wear her school colors because of a lack of a collar is ridiculous.

Instead of showing the accomplishments of the few who are successful TPS decides to make them all Wallflowers and blend into the woodwork.

Just another case of socialism taking root in the USA.

posted by KraZyKat on Oct 17, 2007 at 12:47:23 am     #

Long warm up pants under their skirts? Boy, that sure would have cooled my ardor when I was a freshman and sophomore. It seemed I walked around with a perpetual "woody" looking at the pretty girls (especially the unapproachable, untouchable cheerleaders in their "above the knee" skirts) when I was in high school. I wonder if that is why the school instituted that policy: trying to get the boys to keep their minds on school work rather than other, more natural things.

posted by oldsendbrdy on Oct 17, 2007 at 01:12:58 am     #

I don't understand why people/parents on this board keep denouncing TPS and the teachers for the dress code as if it were some sort of evil communist plot designed by them. Again, for the last time, it was implemented by the Board of Education that YOU elected! If you don't like it, then go to a Board meeting and voice your complaint or better yet run for the Board and get elected.

posted by ilovetoledo on Oct 17, 2007 at 07:08:07 am     #

Of all the essential variables mentioned, the most critical is the student’s home. Simply put: someone had the child for five years before the school got a hold of them.

Critical multi-domain development happens far before the more formal operations associated with school-aged children. Also, the stigmas of social status of the student are present and, according to a Joseph Rowntree Foundation report, children are highly aware of their social position and the limitations it placed upon them.
This research did not imply that poorer parents don't care about their children's education but, many urban school children are not blessed with the resources that more privileged children have.

It is sad to say but, perhaps the best predictor for success in education is the socio-economic status of the child’s parents.

TPS produces many fine scholars and of course more who are not. Some students enter school as “quality students” some develop into good students, some choose not to be, and of course developmental disabilities restrict many children from ever mastering the three Rs.

Public schools have to accept them all. Wouldn’t it be nice if all schools could interview students and parents before admission like private and parochial schools do?

posted by Offshore on Oct 17, 2007 at 08:27:36 am     #

I am not a teacher or a psychologist but here are a few tips that I felt were important in helping our kids to get the most out of school

First, we as parents tried to show a positive attitude toward learning. Even before they were school age, we read books and listened to audio books on tape together with our children. They love it and we enjoyed doing it together. It is a great family activity and it is cheap.

Second, I think it was important to teach them to respect and obey parents from an early age. It requires alot of work following up on them when they are young but it pays dividends when they are old. Teaching them discipline, respect and obedience at a young age is much easier than trying to impose discipline when they are pre-teens and teens.

Third, even from first grade we make the kids take homework seriously and make them do it. This means looking over their assignments and reviewing the grades they receive back. It is not hard, but it should be done regularly. It also helps to attend open houses, conferences and review grade cards.

Fourth, if necessary, spend time helping your child do work or go over test material. This is something else they appreciate. I know you might say you don't have time but everyone has an hour or two per week for their kids.

Fifth, from an early age help them to think about their futures and what they would like to be. Also, explain the reality of the importance of education and the consequences of making poor choices with regards to an attitude toward education or a profession.

This is not impossible. My kids are in high school now and all the while they have been alive I have been working one full-time job and one or two part-time jobs and at the same time working on graduate degrees. Still, I felt I have always had plenty of time to follow up on my kids behavior, attitudes, and school performance. It is an investment that pays off in the future and though it is better to start as early as possible, it is never too late.

posted by ilovetoledo on Oct 17, 2007 at 09:15:04 am     #

Oy vey! I tried as long as I could to hold my tongue, but I can't do it anymore. No single source is to blame for the failure of kids to perform well in school. However, if one source is most to blame, it is home environment. Look at any number of sources that show the correlation between parental involvement (e.g. high PTA participation, parent volunteering) and student success.

I'm not saying that there are not bad or lazy teachers and schools out there, because my son just left one (Washington Local Elementary). On the other hand, I attended Toledo Public my entire school life. The same complaints were being thrown around when I was in school (graduated HS in '90). Nevertheless, my friends and I all managed to perform well in our classes. I can't remember any teacher that I thought was lazy or disinterested in my success. Nor do I recall any teachers ignoring or harassing those students who were not performing well. In fact, I remember grousing about the fact that they spent more time helping those kids.

I realize that my post will fall on mainly deaf ears. Those who want to find the negative will. Still, the reality is that most teachers work their asses off to try to help the kids they teach. If the kids and their parents don't take an ACTIVE role in their learning, what chance do the teachers have? It's the living example of the old adage - "you can lead a horse to water..." Like I said, I know that there are some bad teachers, but don't try to paint them as the majority, they are the exception not the rule.

As for the ridiculous complaints about the dress code - especially KrazyKat - get over it. Socialism? Please. Just about every business in this country has some sort of dress code. They have the code for multiple reasons, but one of them is to focus the employees AND the consumers on the business rather than the individual employees. So, are all those businesses that do everything they can to earn a buck for themselves to the exclusion of all others socialist? Obviously, the answer is no.

A school dress code serves the same purpose as a business dress code - to remove at least one distraction from the business of learning. Everyone wants public schools to operate more like business, taking responsibility for the budget, becoming more efficient, and having its performance based on the success of its products (the students). Well, education is taking a lesson from business - and the highly successful parochial school system. Stop complaining.

posted by MoreThanRhetoric on Oct 17, 2007 at 11:15:08 am     #

Let's look at this from the teacher's point of view: S/he has really worked with the kid today. She has 30 but she really put in time with this one. And she watches him leave with a parent who starts to yell at him because he got milk on his jacket. Now the kid goes home to watch tv until meal-time (he's lucky his parent is there to make it for him tonight), and goes to bed at 11:00 PM, and gets up to dress himself at 7:00 AM, and be out to be picked up by the school-bus (unless he has to walk to school because he is too "close"). He didn't have breakfast today, and can't have it at school because another kid got into a fight with him, and he's lost his "breakfast" privileges (that happened to one of my nephews when the principal decided that was the best way to deal with him and a bully). Now this teacher has to take this young, tired, and hungry student and make him into a "scholar". And it is all the teacher's fault kids don't learn. What B.S!

posted by oldsendbrdy on Oct 17, 2007 at 11:54:52 am     #

Yesterday my daughter told me that they,(female students) were told they could no longer wear those narrow elastic headbands many wear.
I haven't heard any explanation why yet.

Maybe we should have them all wear a burka and be covered from head to toe? Just a little slot to see out of?

posted by JeepMaker on Oct 17, 2007 at 12:30:49 pm     #

This link, http://www.tps.org/content/view/14/42/, is all I could find about a the district-wide high school dress code. Maybe because headbands aren't mentioned they aren't allowed.

posted by oldsendbrdy on Oct 17, 2007 at 01:19:42 pm     #

Is this the kind of headband you were talking about: http://fashion-lingerie.shopping.enclick.com/john-lewis-gingham-narrow-headbands-navy-pack-of-2-PXP2347012

posted by oldsendbrdy on Oct 17, 2007 at 01:32:58 pm     #

MTR...I disagree with this statement

As for the ridiculous complaints about the dress code - especially KrazyKat - get over it. Socialism?

According to Wikipedia the definition of Socialism is as follows:

Socialism refers to a broad array of doctrines or political movements that envisage a socio-economic system in which property and the distribution of wealth are subject to control by the community¹ for the purposes of increasing social and economic equality and cooperation. This control may be either direct—exercised through popular collectives such as workers' councils—or indirect—exercised on behalf of the people by the state. As an economic system, socialism is often characterized by socialized (state or community) ownership of the means of production.

You tell me how the enforcement of a mandatory dress code subject to control by the community (yes it was voted on) for the purposes of increasing social...equality and cooperation cannot be defined as a socialist doctrine according to this definition>

posted by KraZyKat on Oct 17, 2007 at 04:27:55 pm     #

I think krazykat just defined democracy as socialism.....

posted by ilovetoledo on Oct 17, 2007 at 04:32:39 pm     #

Simple KK:

The main focus of socialism is the distribution of material goods and services on an equal basis to all members of a society. As soon as the schools start mandating that all parents must pay their salaries to the state so that they can be redistributed I'll agree with you. The only way schools can be considered socialist is in the fact that they supposedly give the same education to everyone regardless of class, race, or any other factor. But then, that means that they have always been socialist. So, the uniform argument simply holds no weight.

posted by MoreThanRhetoric on Oct 17, 2007 at 04:39:43 pm     #

Professional athletic teams have a dress code.

The armed forces have a dress code.

NBC has a dress code for the contestants on the Biggest Loser.

Does that mean that all those organizations have turned socialist? Again, as before, the answer is no.

posted by MoreThanRhetoric on Oct 17, 2007 at 04:53:02 pm     #

As soon as the schools start mandating that all parents must pay their salaries to the state so that they can be redistributed I'll agree with you

Wouldn't the tax dollars collected from my salary and redistributed (those who make more or own more expensive homes pay more) towards the funding of the schools qualify as a mandate from the schools?

posted by KraZyKat on Oct 17, 2007 at 05:36:05 pm     #

No one is forced to join a Pro Sports team. If you don't like the rules, don't join the team.

Military uniforms are designed to offer protection from the enemy. Again, as of this writing we have a voulenteer armed forces. You don't like the rules, don't join the services.

Biggest Loser is entertainment. No one is forced to be on the show. Don't like the rules, don't sign up.

My point is that all the cases you cite are left up to individual choice to join or not; unlike school children who are mandated by law to attend a school where their individual personalities and choices are stiffled by a enforcement of a dress code.

posted by KraZyKat on Oct 17, 2007 at 05:49:31 pm     #

stiffled by a enforcement of a

Sorry, I meant to say...stifled by enforcement of a

posted by KraZyKat on Oct 17, 2007 at 05:55:24 pm     #

Socialism is based on complete parity - school funding pulls a VERY small amount from each individual. The individual families in a school system enjoy or suffer from very diverse levels of income and other material matters.

Voluntary versus involuntary has no bearing on whether a uniform policy is socialist or not. The existence of a uniform policy, in and of itself, is not a socialist concept. The purpose of the uniform policy is what would or would not make it socialist. Since the policy at issue is designed to take the focus away from clothes and put it on learning, it has nothing to do with socialism.

You don't have to like the policy, but your displeasure does not make it socialist.

posted by MoreThanRhetoric on Oct 17, 2007 at 08:19:28 pm     #

Go to TPS web page look at the uniform policy and look at the so called dresscode for high school students. kind of a good laugh.

besides that jeepmaker says school pride used to be viewed as a good thing.

the question is. Since when do we let public schools tell us to quit being proud of anything? Why can't your kid wear his favorite football, etc. on a shirt????

posted by Kmorgan on Oct 18, 2007 at 10:36:37 am     #

that's football team

posted by Kmorgan on Oct 18, 2007 at 10:37:18 am     #

When I went to school there was conformity (the 1954-1966). I wore Levi's (I can't remember another brand of blue jeans), and a short-sleeve buttoned shirt in fall and spring, and a long sleeve shirt in winter. "Dress up" was a sweater in high-school. Some of the girls at Libbey my last two years got "adventurous", and wore nylons with patterns.

Now is even a bared midriff acceptable? I don't know, but kids seem to be "scruffier" than when I went to school. I suppose it is partly to show their "individuality" (at which I laugh), and partly to get a rise out of the "older generation". As for football jerseys I don't see the problem. Maybe we (the ones who vote for the school board) should go to the polls, and say, "Anything goes."

posted by oldsendbrdy on Oct 18, 2007 at 11:29:38 am     #

When I went to school there was conformity (the 1954-1966).

Don't you mean *18*54 - *18*66?

I am a TPS elementary teacher. If you want to visit the classroom of a child, at least in the elementary level, you simply need to give the teacher 24 hour notice.

That is not what I was told by both school administration and by several high school teachers. The only system that thought it would be a great idea to have a parent monitor their child's class was the Ottawa Hills system. The administrators there welcomed the idea and thought it was a great suggestion.

I also would like to know what happened to the little cretin who took a swing at you on the way to the office. When I attended school, that little girl would have had her back porch painted a bright red before being suspended or possibly expelled.

Right OSB?

posted by madjack on Oct 18, 2007 at 01:49:27 pm     #

mj, do you have children in TPS?

posted by ilovetoledo on Oct 18, 2007 at 02:15:42 pm     #

do you have children in TPS?

Why do you ask?

posted by madjack on Oct 18, 2007 at 03:47:59 pm     #

Well, because if you don't then you really shouldn't be saying anything about TPS.

posted by ilovetoledo on Oct 18, 2007 at 03:57:05 pm     #

Ilovetoledo: I don't have kids in TPS but my taxes pay for them. I have every right, as does anyone else, to say whatever I want about TPS.

The fallacy that you must have children in the system in order to have an opinion about your local schools is just that - a fallacy ... designed to silence dissent.

TPS impacts everything - from home sale prices to attractiveness of the city to future workforces to - for most people - the taxes they pay to support said school system.

In fact, some could postulate that the more you pay in taxes for the schools, the more of an impact your voice should have - regardless of number of kids in the system.

posted by MaggieThurber on Oct 18, 2007 at 04:03:54 pm     #

So, if you don't have children in the system then what makes you qualified to discuss what is happening in the system?

posted by ilovetoledo on Oct 18, 2007 at 04:06:52 pm     #

My point is that mj has some pretty strong, and in my view unfounded and incorrect opinions about TPS, and I am just wondering where is getting them from if not personal experience. I think parents who have kids in TPS and are involved with them and the system have more credibility than bystanders.

posted by ilovetoledo on Oct 18, 2007 at 04:10:26 pm     #

So, if you don't have children in the system then what makes you qualified to discuss what is happening in the system?

well lets count the ways I am qualified:
1. I am a taxpayer as MT pointed out.
2. I have many nieces and nephews in the TPS system and am well versed on their daily activities in and outside of school.
3. I am a former Cub Scout leader for a TPS elematary school.
4. I care very much about our future leaders who will be responsible for the debts we create today and burden them with tomorrow.
5. I am a prouduct of the TPS.
6. I have family members who are employed by the TPS.
7. I bought a Candy Bar!

posted by KraZyKat on Oct 18, 2007 at 04:25:43 pm     #

Sure, you should discuss and learn about the system. MJ was not really discussing TPS he was proclaiming about it and handing down judgments on it like he was an expert. There is a difference you know.

posted by ilovetoledo on Oct 18, 2007 at 04:31:29 pm     #

however, ilovetoledo, you didn't critique his comments, rather you questioned his ability to have an opinion...there is a difference you know.

posted by MaggieThurber on Oct 18, 2007 at 07:46:11 pm     #

Ha! Let her have it, Maggie!

posted by madjack on Oct 18, 2007 at 07:57:07 pm     #

MJ, I went to Whitmer my sophomore year. We had no minorities then so what I will write about is "white on white crime", if you will. A couple of sophomores were being real ass-holes. The teacher put them through a wooden partition. I don't think there was even any trouble about it. You acted like an a-hole you took your lumps. I remember my seventh grade teacher home room teacher at Washingon Junior High had a paddle long enough to go across the widest ass, and six inces tall when laid on same. It was 3/4" thick, and he used it on both the young ladies and young gentlemen. It had holes drilled in it, and there was a lot of speculation from the more "scientific" types over whether the holes reduced air resistance on the swing, or were designed to raise a good crop of blisters. Usually one strike on your ass was enough to get your attention for the remainder of the class. Oh, these kids were on the "college prep" track in the seventh grade.

posted by oldsendbrdy on Oct 18, 2007 at 09:26:20 pm     #

On the contrary, I think I critiqued his comments very thoroughly. Also, I think I am correct in saying that as a parent I probably have a better understanding of TPS than he does. Also, thanks for rushing in and shoring up old MJ. I am sure he appreciates it.

posted by ilovetoledo on Oct 18, 2007 at 09:48:32 pm     #

So, mt, what is your opinion? Do you think MJ is spot on in his extremely harsh critique of TPS? Do you you think his evaluation is helpful accurate and constructive? Do you think it has credibility?

posted by ilovetoledo on Oct 19, 2007 at 07:02:35 am     #

ilt - I think madjack's perspective is shared by many in the TPS district. But I also think your perspective is shared by many. You may think his critique was extremely harsh - others may think your defense is extremely myopic.

His evaluation is as helpful and constructive as yours. I think TPS board members need to pay as much attention to the good things people say about the schools as to the bad things that are said. Both have basis in fact embellished by emotion.

As for whether or not either of you have credibility, I cannot say. You both post under nicknames, so there's no way to independently verify anything about either of you.

BTW - I'm a proud graduate of Woodward High School - second in my class, took college prep classes. I thought, at the time, that I was getting a good education - at least, until I saw the advantages that my college friends had in their education. Today, I wouldn't send my kids to a TPS high school - and probably not a junior high either, because there are other schools that offer safer and higher quality of options and education. This is not to say that someone who attends a TPS high school won't get a good education and 'learn how to learn' (which is really what schools should teach) but that there are 'better' educational institutions available and, in this day and age when competition for jobs, etc...is global, I'd want the absolute best for any child of mine - and my family would make the necessary sacrifices to provide that for him or her.

Further, I'm saddened that so many in the administration and on the board think that marketing the good things about TPS will somehow overcome the bad things. Additionally, I don't think these school leaders set their standards high enough. They seem to want to be better than other urban schools. I, as a tax payer, want them to be better than ALL other schools, with attainable benchmarks along the way to such success. This may not be a realistic goal, but I'd rather have a goal of excellence than a goal of mediocrity.

posted by MaggieThurber on Oct 19, 2007 at 09:23:05 am     #

Thanks. I am curious. Specifically, what did you find in MJ's comments that you thought were accurate, objective, and constructive?

posted by ilovetoledo on Oct 19, 2007 at 11:09:19 am     #

Here are some things he said that I thought were accurate (as in an accurate rendition of his perspective), and constructive:

I thought that it was common knowledge these days that TPS was staffed by incompetents who couldn't find or hold a job in private industry. Evidently I was wrong.

He's noting that he had an opinion that was inaccurate and he's correcting it...

While there are certainly a few highly qualified, hard working individuals employed by TPS, they are the true minority (got that, Purnhrt?) in the school system.

He thinks there are good people in TPS, he just thinks they're in the minority. This is as valid as thinking the opposite.

The rank and file are a waste of space and should be either replaced, which is the best idea, or trained to be good instructors.

He believes it's possible for bad teachers to improve. I don't know that anyone could disagree with additional training to help teachers be better, with the understanding that failing to improve means you don't get to stay...

School policy that forbids clothing without a collar and forces cheerleaders to wear warm up pants is the sort of thing dictated by petty tyrants who are not terribly bright.

Wow - you think anyone thought about the impact of the dress policy on other policies like the requirement that cheerleaders wear their uniforms on the day of a game? It's called thinking through an issue. If the idea of a dress code was properly vetted, such circumstances would have been anticipated and addressed - hopefully in a way that didn't require sweat pants under the cheerleading skirts. I'm sure any of us would have been able to devise a workable solution that didn't necessitate this ridiculous look.

I've even seen a few school teachers who couldn't compose a coherent paragraph.

For the past several years, I was a member of a committee that reviewed and made recommendations for who should be awarded Toledo Federation of Teachers' scholarships. I've seen the way a few of the TPS teachers composed their letters of recommendation as well as the grammatical and punctuation errors. Certainly, it was not the majority, but it was enough to make me question their ability - and it was something I and the other committee members did not consider when making our decision.

But if I were a college admissions person, I might question how good of an education a student got when their teacher's letter of recommendation was so poorly constructed.

Now - please note that these comments are MY INTERPRETATION of Madjack's post only. He may have meant something entirely different..

Hope this answers your question.

posted by MaggieThurber on Oct 19, 2007 at 12:16:58 pm     #

btw - would you like me to do the same for some of YOUR comments???

posted by MaggieThurber on Oct 19, 2007 at 12:18:21 pm     #

See, just as I thought! When you filter out all the blather, vitriole, and condemnation there really isn't much there. Sure, be my guest, I am flattered if you think my posts are worth commenting on.

posted by ilovetoledo on Oct 19, 2007 at 01:03:13 pm     #

actually, I don't think ALL of your posts are worth commenting on...I just thought it interesting that you seemed to think your posts are 'better' in some way than Madjack's and that you asked for why I thought (opinion - no right or wrong) the comments were 'valid' ... but you didn't ask for the same type of feedback on your own posts.

As you criticize madjack's 'blather, vitriole and condemnation,' others filter out your 'rosy, everything's great, don't be negative' types of statements.

My point is that it goes both ways...

posted by MaggieThurber on Oct 19, 2007 at 01:20:23 pm     #

On a more contructive note, I will just summarize my points of opinion.

First, TPS has quality teachers and quality classes for those who are interested in pursuing them. This has been my subjective experience through going through the systm myself and after having two children reach high school.

Second, I think it is very unfair to run down TPS and indiscriminately call many hardworking teachers and administrators incompetent. Not only that, it is not constructive. In any organization or family when we just try to fix problems by running others down and condemning them it is often counter productive.

Third, I think there are indeed problems that need to be addressed. I never said there were not. I think my main point is that the problems in TPS lay more with parents than the teachers and administrators and in order to solve the problems involving discipline and learning the problems with TPS families need to be addressed. I think you could have the very best teachers in the world, the best and newest buildings, and the latest technology but if parents have not done and do not do the job of disciplining a child and preparing that child to be teachable then it is all in vain.

Fourth, about the school uniforms. Again, this is not the teachers and administrators fault. If you want to complain, complain to the school board and better yet run for the school board if you want to make changes.

Fifth, I want to say is that people who so freely denounce and condemn teachers and other educational professionals often have an axe to grind because either they or their children did not do as well as they liked. It is an easy thing to blame teachers but very often the problem lay with the students discipline, work habit, or attitude. I have seen it over and over again. So, when considering the problems at TPS parents have to have a more holistic attitude and they themselves must consider what they can do personally at home to improve their own child's attitude toward education.

Lastly, I want to say that my impression from MJ is that he does not have children in the system. As a citizen, my tax dollars probably go to virtually every school district in the country. I wonder what the people of Sylvania or Perrysburg would think if I started posting how incompetent their teachers were and how terrible their school systems were? (They have problems too you know.) Anyway, all I said was that I wouldn't feel competent to talk about those systems.

Anyway, this was a summary of my main points so please specifically let me know what you think is in error.

posted by ilovetoledo on Oct 19, 2007 at 01:43:14 pm     #

'rosy, everything's great, don't be negative'

I don't think I am rosy at all. Having gone through the system and having two teenagers in the system I am probably more acquainted with the problems than you or he is. So, I think you are reading that into it yourself. My point is that the solution lay more with correcting the attitudes of students and teachers rather than bashing the teachers and administrators.

posted by ilovetoledo on Oct 19, 2007 at 01:52:47 pm     #

ilt - note: I didn't say your posts were "'rosy, everything's great, don't be negative'" but that others might perceive them to be so...

Your points - I agree with the first one. I'm not so sure about the second one because some use your valid point to an extreme - taking any negative comment as 'running down' when it is meant to be constructive criticism. Third, there's a lot of truth in this point, but ... some use such valid points as a reason to excuse poor teachers. Fourth - wholeheartedly agree that the Board is to blame for any issues with the school uniforms - but I've come to expect that our board doesn't fully think through their policies and positions. Fifth, not everyone who criticizes has an axe to grind and to believe such is to prejudge the person. Further, even if a person has an ax to grind, it doesn't mean that any point they're trying to make is invalid.

Education of children is multi-pronged: teachers, administrators, board members, community, parents, family, children themselves. Any deficit in any portion can result in a negative outcome - or not, depending upon the other factors. But there's not much taxpayers can do about the parents - they have more ability to influence the board, the administration and the teachers - and that probably accounts for much of the frustration so many in TPS have.

Your points are your opinions. You cannot be in error in your opinions - misinformed, maybe, but not wrong. And your criticism of others' opinions is what I took exception to.

Even in your last post, you believe you are more acquainted with the problems than I am simply because you've gone through the system and have two teenagers in TPS. However, we've both been through TPS and you don't know my level of involvement in the local schools. Furthermore, since we don't even know who madjack is, you cannot assume that you are more familiar than him with the issues.

posted by MaggieThurber on Oct 19, 2007 at 02:38:58 pm     #

Well, you seem to make alot of presumptions in the way you talk to me. In fact, I think both of you read too much between the lines and the like. Anyway, the reason I wanted to find out about MJ was so I could understand him. Anyway, this is a public forum where we are free to discuss and challenge. It is MJ's right to bash TPS even though he doesn't have kids in the system. It is my right to tell him how wrong he is and show him why. It is your right to tell me how wrong I am for telling him how wrong he is. So, what is your complaint?

************
By the way, the TPS superintendent will be having open forums the following dates so those of you who have a complaint should go and attend and get involved with being part of the solution.

November 7th @ Leverette Middle School, 445 E. Manhattan
November 14th @ McTigue Middle School, 5555 Nebraska
November 28th @ Robinson Middle School, 1075 Horace
November 29th @ Jones at Gunckel Park Middle School, 430 Nebraska
December 4th @ Start High School, 2100 Tremainsville
December 5th @ Byrnedale Middle School, 3635 Glendale

posted by ilovetoledo on Oct 19, 2007 at 03:53:41 pm     #

MadJack, don't let anyone tell you that you can't sit in on your child's classes. I know you have the right to. If the administration and teacher continue to throw road blocks, call John Foley. My philosophy, even as a teacher, is that a closed door is hiding something. Push the issue. FYI, the girl who assaulted me was given a 5 day suspension.

posted by marlos on Oct 19, 2007 at 04:30:07 pm     #

So what about this dress code for TPS? This didn't come out of the Board in a vacuum, did it? Does the Board act without any public consultation? I would have thought that there was some public support for this (a dress code). If there was then the blame rests not just with the board but a sizeable part of the community who thought this was "a good thing" (and many parents probably still do). Maybe this policy wasn't well thought out, but I can't believe that only the members of the school board thought this was a good thing (and the rest of the citizens of the city of Toledo did not).

posted by oldsendbrdy on Oct 19, 2007 at 05:52:11 pm     #

I've posted a poll on Swampbubbles for those who want to vote for or against the TPS dress code, and any comments you want to leave.

posted by oldsendbrdy on Oct 19, 2007 at 06:21:03 pm     #

ilovetoledo

In fact it is none of your business if I even have children, let alone where my children attend school.

MadJack, don't let anyone tell you that you can't sit in on your child's classes. I know you have the right to.

Thanks, Marlos. I'll follow your advice, although I tend to think that I'll end up calling John Foley in short order. We shall see.

When I went to public school I knew of three assaults during my 12 long years of attendance. Twice in grade school, as there was a teacher who would lose her temper and slap the students. She was fast, too, and caught one third grader with a full hand slap across the face. Another boy she tried for was too quick for her and blocked the swing. The third assault was in High School, and this was a knock down, drag out fight between a teacher and a student. Technically, the teacher won that one, if you call brawling with a student winning. That was the only occasion I ever saw a student raise their hand to an instructor, and I went to school with some legitimately tough kids.

Anyway, you don't deserve to be treated that way. I wonder what that child's home life must be like for her to behave like that.

posted by madjack on Oct 19, 2007 at 07:32:16 pm     #

Old threads at Toledo Talk related to the TPS uniform policy :

• December 5, 2003 - Parents support school uniforms - (No Comments)

• January 30, 2004 - Toledo Public School tidbits - (No Comments)

• May 17, 2004 - school uniforms - (6 Comments)

• July 20, 2004 - Free school uniforms - (2 Comments)

• February 11, 2005 - Why are we wearing unforms in public schools - (77 Comments)

• February 13, 2005 - Are teachers slacking and blaming your kids for it? - (76 Comments)

• March 2, 2005 - How about a volunteer uniform policy - (4 Comments)

• April 18, 2005 - Mandatory Uniform Policies Spread to Jr. High - (16 Comments)

• March 9, 2006 - High Schoolers Not Uniformly Pleased with TPS Dress Code - (57 Comments)

• August 26, 2006 - Mass confusion on the first day of school - (19 Comments)

Here are a couple of news stories, embedded in the first two threads listed above.

• December 5, 2003 Blade story :

Nearly 80 percent of parents who responded to a Toledo Public Schools questionnaire at teacher conferences last week favored a district-wide uniform policy. Of the 6,444 surveys received by yesterday afternoon, 5,048, or 78 percent, favored a district-wide policy and 1,396, or 22 percent, opposed it.

The district’s uniform committee has been meeting since June and will meet again this month to finalize a district uniform policy to take to the board of education’s January meeting, Dr. Austin said. Peter Silverman, president of the board of education, said he expects the board to adopt uniforms for elementary schools.

Four Toledo elementary schools currently require uniforms for pupils: Grove Patterson, Lincoln Academy for Boys, Old West End, and Stewart Academy for Girls.

• January 27, 2004 WTOL story :

The Toledo public school board unanimously passed a school uniform policy at its monthly meeting on Tuesday. The board has been looking at a uniform policy for the past year after seeing how successful it was in schools like the Old West End Academy and Grove Patterson Academy.

They hope it helps curb discipline problems. The new policy will take effect in elementary schools next school year. School leaders plan to have it extend to the junior and senior high schools in the next three or four years.

This August 2006 comment contains a link to the TPS Web site that explains TPS's reason for adopting a uniform policy in 2004. Naturally, that TPS link is now broken, but here's what the TPS Web site once said with my bolding added :

A decision to adopt uniforms has been made because Toledo Public Schools believes in developing policies and practices that promote a positive academic, social, and behavioral climate, and credible data indicates that the adoption of student uniform dress codes can improve a school district's overall educational climate.

Even though four years ago a TPS survey showed nearly 80 percent of parents supported a uniform policy, and this is the fourth year for uniforms in the elementary schools, the issue is still being debated by some.

Here's something people should get upset over : 2006-07 School Report Card.

posted by jr on Oct 19, 2007 at 11:15:03 pm     #

After 4 years of a uniform policy we can now judge its success and failures. Therefore it is now being redebated to discuss those same success and failure points.

As with any policy, after an appropriate amount of time has elapsed, it needs to be re-evaluated to determine what does and what doesn't work. Sometimes "tweaking" of the original policy and sometimes total deletion of it needs to take place. I feel that is what is going on here.

posted by KraZyKat on Oct 20, 2007 at 01:53:40 am     #

The uniform policy has not existed for four years. The school board approved the policy in January 2004. It began at the elementary level at the start of the 2004-2005 school year. So it's only existed for three full school years for K-6 and two years for grades 7-8.

The 2006-2007 school year was the first year for the policy at the high school level. One year. At least wait until it's been at the high school level for five years before evaluating, which means through the 2010-2011 school year.

When the report card comes out in August 2011, then you can say the uniform policy has had no affect, and you can get it abolished by the start of the 2012-2013 school year.

posted by jr on Oct 20, 2007 at 10:40:58 am     #

Why would you have to wait five years if a majority of the parents with students thought it was a bad idea? Sometimes things are pushed through by activists that others feel "well, let's try it". Some parents probably realized it was a bad idea by the second week of school. I am not saying that the majority of parents think it is a bad idea, but there was no referendum to decide this. It was decided by the "leadership" along with some pressure groups. Most voters are "lumpen" until some ordinance begins to be a daily pain in the ass. Is that what we have here?

posted by oldsendbrdy on Oct 20, 2007 at 11:12:17 am     #

And why should this policy be district-wide? What happened with principals of school taking responsibility for that shcool? If principals of schools decided the dress code for that school we might have "a thousand flowers" blooming (or at a few dozen). Parents could "vote with their feet" for another school if they found a school's dress code onerous. Instead, they have to take time from work to get a particular piece of clothing because a school's administration can't be flexible.

posted by oldsendbrdy on Oct 20, 2007 at 11:16:50 am     #

Here's something people should get upset over : 2006-07 School Report Card.

Well! There's only one thing to do: Find the parents responsible for this outrage, track 'em down and beat the living begeezus out of 'em.

Why would you have to wait five years if a majority of the parents with students thought it was a bad idea?

Because they didn't think it was a bad idea? Because they have no clue as to what they're talking about? Because they are innately stupid? Ok, oldsendbrdy, you got me. I don't know the answer. But I'll bet you'll be happy to tell me, because you know everything. Right?

My only complaint with this (uniform policy) is that it takes attention away from the real problems in the school and it has the flavor of a "Let's try this... what can it hurt?" solution. How would you feel about employing any other professional that used that approach?

posted by madjack on Oct 20, 2007 at 11:25:36 am     #

Madjack, I imagine that "let's try it" probably happens more often in life than you seem to consider.

posted by oldsendbrdy on Oct 20, 2007 at 11:36:26 am     #

I honestly wouldn't have a single problem with the uniform dress code if one major thing were to change and that would be that it is fully enforced 100% across the board! I have had experiences where I had to leave my job or my school to take something to my child because it was decided that something they were wearing wasn't acceptable, yet as I'm sitting waiting to give said item(s) to my child, I see other children adorning similar if not identical items that my child supposedly cannot wear because it's not "in uniform".

It also irritates the crap out of me to see young men being allowed to wear over sized shirts just so that they can wear their pants below their a$$es. This is completely ridiculous and can be argued by saying they would not be allowed to wear their pants like this in the working world. I would love to see something done to bring a complete and total stop to this as I find it completely offensive!

I don't see where putting students in a color/style specific uniform code has done a single thing to enhance the learning atmosphere because now you have to waste time running around after the idiots who blatantly don't follow it!

posted by justsimplyholly on Oct 20, 2007 at 03:35:42 pm     #

"Why would you have to wait five years if a majority of the parents with students thought it was a bad idea?"

oldsendbrdy, do you have data to back up your claim that most parents think the uniform policy is a bad idea? What do you think about TPS's 2003 survey?

Nearly 80 percent of parents who responded to a Toledo Public Schools questionnaire at teacher conferences last week favored a district-wide uniform policy.

And why has a uniform policy existed in the Catholic schools for so many years?

"My only complaint with this (uniform policy) is that it takes attention away from the real problems in the school and it has the flavor of a "Let's try this... what can it hurt?" solution."

If TPS was scoring on its tests like Perrysburg and Ottawa Hills, then a "let's try it" solution related to a uniform policy would not be needed at TPS. But here are the report card results for TPS :

• 2002: report card showed TPS met 5 of 27 academic standards (.18) Academic Emergency
• 2003: 6 of 22 (.27) Academic Emergency
• 2004: 7 of 18 (.39) Continous Improvement
• 2005: 4 of 23 (.17) Continous Improvement
• 2006: 6 of 25 (.24) Continous Improvement
• 2007: 5 of 30 (.17) Academic Watch

That's failure in a huge way. TPS is at the "try anything" stage. Obviously, the status quo is not working.

Implementing a uniform policy: simple.
Educating students: hard.

It's amazing or maybe not that parents, teachers, students, and administrators within a district cannot implement something as simple as a uniform policy. If TPS cannot even do this, then what chance does it have of improving its educational system so that one day TPS scores at least 50% on the report card? Answer: None.

To me, implementing a successful uniform policy would be a sign of a minor accomplishment at TPS, which would be a first in the six years that I've lived in Toledo. But I guess simple accomplishments like this can only be achieved by the private schools.

So what's needed to make a uniform policy succeed? I'd say maybe guidelines, acceptance, encouragement, cooperation, and enforcement. And it takes that and more to give a student a good education.

TPS's inability to implement a successful uniform policy is proof to the public of how inept TPS really is. Think about it. A successful uniform policy is apparently too difficult for TPS.

posted by jr on Oct 20, 2007 at 05:52:19 pm     #

Friday, three TPS kids 13 year olds were caught breaking into a house in our neighborhood during school hours. The police asked one of the kids why he wasn't in school. His reply, "My mother doesn't care if I skip class." I suppose MJ, KK, & MT would still bash TPS teachers and claim it was their fault instead of the parent's that these kids were out breaking into houses when they should have been in school.....

posted by ilovetoledo on Oct 22, 2007 at 07:25:45 am     #

Oh, and mj, I sure enough said you had the right to bash TPS schools out of ignorance. If you read carefully, (something you never really learned to do), I believe I said I wouldn't do what you were doing if I were in your situation. Lastly, I will just say again that you have the right to bash TPS even if you don't have children in the system, but now at least we know where to place your credibility.

posted by ilovetoledo on Oct 22, 2007 at 07:28:26 am     #

Probably you will say that the reason those kids broke into the house was because of the TPS dress code.....

posted by ilovetoledo on Oct 22, 2007 at 07:50:38 am     #

This is great :

• ilovetoledo: mj, do you have children in TPS?

• madjack: Why do you ask?

• ilovetoledo: Well, because if you don't then you really shouldn't be saying anything about TPS.

• MaggieThurber: I don't have kids in TPS but my taxes pay for them. I have every right, as does anyone else, to say whatever I want about TPS. The fallacy that you must have children in the system in order to have an opinion about your local schools is just that - a fallacy ... designed to silence dissent. In fact, some could postulate that the more you pay in taxes for the schools, the more of an impact your voice should have - regardless of number of kids in the system.

• ilovetoledo: So, if you don't have children in the system then what makes you qualified to discuss what is happening in the system?

• ilovetoledo: I think parents who have kids in TPS and are involved with them and the system have more credibility than bystanders.

Question for ilovetoledo: Do TPS teachers who live outside the school district or send their kids to a non-TPS school have a right to say anything about TPS?

Is it true that more than 50% of TPS teachers live outside Toledo? If so, why is that?

From a March 2004 Toledo Talk thread titled Mayor Ford loses support of black teachers :

Mr. Rahwae Shuman said : "What Mr. Ford failed to realize is that 70 percent of Mrs. Lawrence's membership lives outside of the city and can't vote for him."

In an April 2007 Glass City Jungle thread, Karen Shanahan said :

... are you aware that 60% of the teachers and administrators of TPS live outside Toledo. They are supported by Toledoan fianancially but do not support Toledo with their residency. They have jobs in Toledo, why don’t they want to live here? It’s the school system.

I live in Toledo, but my stepdaughter does not attend TPS, but my tax dollars support TPS, so I know I have a right to criticize TPS. I probably have more of right to be critical than the 60% of the TPS teachers/administrators who live outside Toledo.

Nearly 62% of our property taxes support TPS. I have no problem NOT paying taxes to support TPS, since my stepdaughter does not attend the school system. How about only those who have kids in TPS pay the taxes to support TPS? That way only those paying the taxes can be critical, and I wouldn't say another word about TPS.

If we're not allowed to criticize TPS because we don't have a child in the system, then why should our taxes support TPS? Why should I believe that 60% of the TPS teachers and administrators who live outside Toledo would care about TPS?

Sure, parents of TPS kids shoulder at least half the blame for their kids not doing well in school.

Check out this pathetic parental behavior pointed out in a June 2004 Toledo Talk thread titled More evidence that parents are at fault? that pointed to a June 26, 2004 Blade story :

When the state gave Toledo Public Schools $380,000 to prepare high school students for the Ohio Graduation Test, administrators were eager to help the students get ready. They scheduled Saturday sessions, before and after-school workshops, and summer programs. All were free. But just a handful of students turned out for the programs, school administrators said.

At the East Toledo school, about 15 students are attending a three-week, half-day summer session focusing on all areas of the test. An additional 20 students took advantage of some before and after-school tutoring in March and April, with another 30 students in Saturday sessions during February, said Robin Wheatley, assistant principal of curriculum and instruction. But those 70 students were among hundreds invited.

"I was extremely disappointed," Miss Wheatley said. "I sent letters to the parents saying, 'Your student refused to be tutored.' "

Teachers called parents at all times of the day to inform them about the free summer session and sent letters explaining the test and the extra help students could get.

At Scott High School, about 46 of the roughly 180 invited students attended the summer sessions that focused on mathematics and reading, said Jose Hernandez, the summer program coordinator. "We send out a letter to parents. We call parents. We talk to parents at freshman meetings," he said. "We have incentive packages - T-shirts and things like that. Right now, we're getting the kids who really want to improve."

It's great that our tax dollars support a system with so many parents who don't give a damn.

We could always try this wild idea, listed in a July 2004 Toledo Talk thread titled Paying parents to educate their kids, which was about a program in a Detroit school :

The lure: Parents are paid to come to monthly classes and work with their child. The man behind it: Dr. Charles Whitten, a retired distinguished professor and associate dean in Wayne State University's School of Medicine.

Whitten acknowledges that some may question paying parents to teach their children, but he is adamant that it works.

Veronica Morrow, Christian's mother, said she would have signed up for the program regardless of the cash incentive, which was $60 a month for working with the child 15 minutes a day, six days a week.

Whitten said he firmly believes that if parents knew how to teach their children -- and were committed to it -- their kids wouldn't enter kindergarten so far behind. So, with the help of a Wayne State education professor, Whitten created the curriculum. Many unprepared children are coming from homes where there are few books, few adults reading and few adults reading to their children.

posted by jr on Oct 22, 2007 at 12:32:35 pm     #

This is a free country, anyone can say whatever outlandish and ignorant thing they want to say as is evidenced by many of the posters on these boards. My point is that someone who does not have direct or indirect contact with TPS probably has little credibility discussing TPS. If a TPS teacher lives in another district or sends their kids elsewhere then I still think they are credible because they have contact.

If someone wants to post something I have every right to question their credibility, especially if they talk trash.

posted by ilovetoledo on Oct 22, 2007 at 03:21:46 pm     #

Let me say this a different way. I think I have credibility when discussing TPS for the following reasons:

1.) I spent 18 years in the system as a student.

2.) I have spent 17 years in the system as a an active parent to two children who have been in the system and are successful in it.

3.) I have had opportunities to deal with numerous teachers, parents and children in the system.

4.) I have known a number of TPS teachers personally and have conversed with them about the subject.

5.) I enjoy reading about the education process and how to improve it.

6.) I have a doctorate and teach at the college level, though not in education.

OK, MJ & KK, these are the reasons I think I have a certain crediblity in discussing TPS. What are yours? Why should I value your opinions on TPS?

posted by ilovetoledo on Oct 22, 2007 at 03:35:02 pm     #

JR, I didn't mean to imply that a majority of the parents are against a dress code. A survey in which 80% favored such a dress code in 2003 might not be valid in 2007, though.

But you do raise more important points. I believe firmly that the parents are to blame, while you want to impart blame equally. There are socio-economic conditions that give rise to the chances of failure. I am sure it is easy to chart the demographics to realize that some schools have lots of kids who come from middle-class families while other schools have a majority of students from "poor" economic circumstances. Who is likely to succeed in the class-room?

If I were to wager on how well a child would do in his life I look at his socio-economic roots. I know there are exceptions, but I would place my money that a middle-class kid, who has one parent who works while the other parent provides a good home, is more likely to be successful. How successful is a child from a one-parent family likely to be? If we want to blame it on the teachers, fine, but no amount of money will, I think, make up these differences. So we will continue to gamble our money on one solution or another. But the root causes (illegitimacy, single-parent families, two parents working) will continue to be there, and likely grow with each succeeding generation. Maybe parochial schools can make up for this, but there is more need than there are schools to provide solutions.

posted by oldsendbrdy on Oct 22, 2007 at 04:35:36 pm     #

Why should anyone value your opinions, ilovetoledo, when obviously your militant attitude is to stifle free speech by those who pay taxes that support TPS? If you can swing it so that my property taxes don't have to support TPS, then I'm fine with staying quiet about TPS's failures as evident by these scores :

• 2002: report card showed TPS met 5 of 27 academic standards (.18) Academic Emergency
• 2003: 6 of 22 (.27) Academic Emergency
• 2004: 7 of 18 (.39) Continuous Improvement
• 2005: 4 of 23 (.17) Continuous Improvement
• 2006: 6 of 25 (.24) Continuous Improvement
• 2007: 5 of 30 (.17) Academic Watch

How can any Toledoan who supports TPS with taxes be silent about those numbers regardless if the person has a child in TPS? More people without kids in TPS but who support TPS with taxes should be speaking out.

How about the number of TPS schools whose students qualified for vouchers for the current school year?

The following school buildings have been in academic emergency or academic watch for two of the last three years, making their students eligible to apply for vouchers:

TOLEDO
Chase Elementary
Cherry Elementary *
Fulton Elementary
Garfield Elementary
Nathan Hale Elementary *
Jones Elementary
Lagrange Elementary
Leverette Elementary
Libbey High
Lincoln Academy for Boys
McTigue Junior High
Newbury Elementary
Pickett Elementary *
Raymer Elementary
Reynolds Elementary
Robinson Junior High
Scott High *
Sherman Elementary
Woodward High *

• Currently in program

SOURCE: Ohio Department of Education

Our tax dollars are being severely squandered on t