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What I Want to Know About the Toledo-Lucas County Public Library

I wanted to find out some information about the Toledo-Lucas County Public Library to see if there where other options for running the library besides taxation. For one thing, it is a “free system” (except for those of us who pay taxes based on real estate, or who rent and pay the taxes of those who own the property). We could base it on “membership” but those who run a business would have a better idea about how many members we would “lose” if we divided each member’s cost on a per member basis. Can anyone propose a possible successful model other than taxation?

This link shows what a member gets from Netflix, http://www.netflix.com/HowItWorks.
Many people utilize this service (even the “poor”, I suppose). So what is it about Netflix that will make people pay for it, but might not happen with the Toledo-Lucas County Public Library? Is it because the Toledo-Lucas County Public Library is “free”? If an effort was made to switch to a “paid membership” or “rental” service from the Toledo-Lucas County Public Library what would likely occur, and how could it be planned so that the public would accept such a change? If the Toledo-Lucas County Public Library went to a paid membership what percentage of “members” would vote with their feet to forego library “services”? Would it be better to offer individual library materials for “rent”? How many members would quit if we went from a “free” library to a “rental” system?

This link, http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mpublibrary.html, looks at the recent history of libraries, and shows how “public libraries” (supported by tax dollars) came to be. If the intent of a library is to make knowledge available to anyone regardless of class or economic condition then we have achieved that goal. But what is the cost? If a class of people feel that they are unfairly bearing the economic burden of these institutions with little benefit to them then are we doing “right”? So is there a better way to provide these services without unduly burdening those who pay for it?

I am going to try to find out from the library two things: 1. How many “materials” (books, CDs, DVDs, etc.) have been loaned out each year since Toledo became part of the Toledo-Lucas County Public Library; and 2. What was the membership for each year since the formation of the Toledo-Lucas County Public Library? This might give me an idea of how much “rent” we would have to charge per item to meet a certain budget, or how much we could expect each member to pay for membership in such a “subscription library”. Of course, if half the membership was lost that might make the scheme unprofitable.

created by oldsendbrdy on Oct 22, 2007 at 11:41:28 pm     Comments: 53

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Comments ... #

Looking at the T-LCPL I think it would be neat if they had a "counter" like you see on a lot of websites. The library probably keeps track of this internally, but it would be intesting to see how many "hits" they've had, and how many of those are members. Members could be determined when someone puts in their card ID and gains access to the system.

posted by oldsendbrdy on Oct 22, 2007 at 11:43:45 pm     #



The link "How It Works" didn't work. Go to the Main as directed, and click "How It Works". Down in the FAQ there is a link that shows the costs of various plans. The most popular is 3 DVDs at a time for unlimited use at $16.99 per month. The T-LCPL seems a bargain with its allowance of six DVDs at time (even if only for two days [unless you get them on Thursday, and keep them until Monday evening] for "movies"; you can keep items that have "Dewey" numbers for two weeks, I think).

posted by oldsendbrdy on Oct 22, 2007 at 11:50:35 pm     #



I got some information from this link, http://www.ala.org/template.cfm?Section=pio&Template=/cfapps/pio/bycity.cfm, with some numbers for the T-LCPL. The library does what it does for a cost of $64.13 per citizen.

posted by oldsendbrdy on Oct 23, 2007 at 12:11:20 am     #



The above link doesn't seem to work. Here is a quote from it: "Last year, about 6.3 million library materials were circulated, from books to periodicals and movies to music. About 2.9 million people visited the main or branch libraries in 2005. The library does all this on a budget of $60.74 for each Lucas County resident. Without question, public support has been a big part of the success. The system boasts a beautiful modern edifice downtown, and several branch libraries have either been newly constructed or renovated. The Locke Branch in East Toledo will be the newest addition when it is finished next spring. These improvements have been possible because voters supported a 10-year bond issue in 1995 that generated $38.6 million. Three years ago, voters approved a four-year operating levy that has generated $7.8 million annually." Now the library says we should have an operating budget of about $18.7 million each year. This seems to indicate if we tried to charge a rental fee per item of about $2.97 per item (remember Wal-Mart's "everyday low prices" and odd numbers that don't end in "9") we might break even this way without taxes. Maybe we could give the kids a break, and charge the adults more. Or charge more for some "upscale" items, or charge less for "loss leaders". Or you would pay a premium to borrow a popular item. I am guessing that the 2.9 million people who visited the library must have been multiple visits by members. We might have to charge the 100,000 members (are there that many)$20 a year to keep the system funcional. Maybe a discount to kids, and senior citizens. If the Zoo and COSI can ask $45-$60 with a straight face per year surely the library could ask an adult for $30.

posted by oldsendbrdy on Oct 23, 2007 at 12:43:11 am     #



I know they used to have guy with a counter at the desk at the Main Library as they came through the door. I've never seen that done at branches. I wonder how they know "about 2.9 million people visited the main or branch libraries in 2005." A store doesn't profit from its browsers so it probably is important to keep tract of its customers. But many come to the library to read the periodicals. There is no record that they borrowed any items yet they availed themselves of services. The library tries to be a comfortable place, but wouldn't it be more business-like to know the volume of its clientele?

posted by oldsendbrdy on Oct 23, 2007 at 12:57:02 am     #



I sometimes am frivilous in my borrowing. I don't like to have "nothing to do" so if I am in my car, and I don't have a book (and know I'll have some "dead time") I'll borrow one from the library. If I see a book I might like (even if I might not read it for a while) I'll take it off the shelf. As my dad used to say "your eyes are bigger than your stomach" if us kids took more than he thought we would eat at a sitting, and I guess that could apply to reading too. If I had to pay close to three dollars in rent for an item I probably would take only one at a time. I would probably never be late again, or argue vociferously when I was. I imagine the library would have to up it's "rental" fees because past circulation when items were "free" would plunge under a "rental" system. So maybe membership is best with unlimited usage.

posted by oldsendbrdy on Oct 23, 2007 at 01:13:01 am     #



In a sense of "public spirit" I sometimes give materials to the library. I have given DVDs in the past. I have given a few books. I might watch a particular one once a year or every two years so why not give it to this great public institution? But if I'm paying $300 a year for a membership I won't be so willing. My $10 DVD should net me a $20 discount on my membersip, right? Let the haggling commence. I will be freer in my requests for more materials, and they will probably be more tight-fisted. If they accept "donations" that you can discount from your membership they will have 100 copies of the latest pocket book romance on the shelves, and maybe one copy of an important historical work.

posted by oldsendbrdy on Oct 23, 2007 at 01:27:17 am     #



and we should charge tuition for our public schools?

there are some things that are properly in the public trust and some things that are not.

a library is properly in the public trust if civilization has any self-respect.

it is commonly the one thing I am prepared to fork over more money for if it is properly and efficiently operated.

while I understand that libraries are likely under-utilized in the digital age, that does not mean to say that libraries should not adapt.

I think our library has been pretty much a technology leader as far as civic libraries go, and it needs more to do more.

so if there is to be any library discussion it should involve efficiency of the library and not whether we should be charged a membership fee.

every person should have the right to access any public library.

posted by ChiliDog on Oct 23, 2007 at 08:20:55 am     #



Erecting barriers to free information like paid memberships to libraries is definitely one of the most foolish ideas I have ever heard. Libraries are a free resource for a reason. ChiliDog has it dead on.

posted by thetoledowire_com on Oct 23, 2007 at 09:03:39 am     #



ChiliDog and thetoledwire: I may agree with you but the final say will be up to the electorate. Luckily, what the "libertarian" voters have going against them is the apathy that leads the electorate not to vote on the basis of considered goods. "It's already there, what can a few dollars more hurt". I figure that if there are 200,000 members (those with cards) at the T-LCPL, and we all had to fork over "memberships" to cover the $18.3 million budget needed for next year that would come to $91.50, if my math is correct. And people would inevitably drop their memberships. I think we are "stuck" with this "free system" unless Bill Gates decides to fund it.

posted by oldsendbrdy on Oct 23, 2007 at 10:49:21 am     #



Here is a reply I got from a staffer at the T-LCPL when I asked about circulation:
Thanks for writing. I am the Marketing Manager for the Library and have the information you need. Our total circulation for 2006 was 6,373,394. The busiest part of the year is January through March (term papers) and June & July (Summer Reading Club) and October seem to be pretty busy too. Please let me know if you have any other questions. Thanks again for your inquiry.

Susan Gibney

posted by oldsendbrdy on Oct 23, 2007 at 11:04:29 am     #



I am considering expanding information that I post here into an article for Wikipedia or LEWiki about the history, and economics of the T-LCPL. It seems to have caught my interest at the moment.

posted by oldsendbrdy on Oct 23, 2007 at 11:05:46 am     #



Plain and simple, a library is as essential to a civilization as is its schools, fire and police.

As with any publicly funded operation, there are those that pay more and those that do not pay at all.

If those that pay more feel unfairly burdened, then they should get their butts down to the library and partake of the fruits of their labors. It is at least one of the public works where one can enjoy it more by using it more.

Otherwise, they should shut up and pay.

posted by ChiliDog on Oct 23, 2007 at 11:14:26 am     #



poor grammar.

should have been at the library more often I guess.

The above first sentence should read,
"Plain and simple, a library is as essential to a civilization as are its schools, fire and police."

Sorry.

posted by ChiliDog on Oct 23, 2007 at 11:16:31 am     #



Can be argued with: "a library is as essential to a civilization as are its schools, fire and police."

Historically, police and fire departments are modern developments. And yet we do speak of Greek, Roman, and other "civilizations". Private schools probably predate these. Now I find it hard imagining living in a "civilization" without these (that would be an interesting setting for a novel), but I can imagine it's horrible possibility. Certainly, libertarians have imagined it. In their view it would involve individuals paying for services.

posted by oldsendbrdy on Oct 23, 2007 at 11:26:35 am     #



The question might be asked: what is wrong with combining a paid membership with a levi. After all, this is what COSI does, correct?

posted by oldsendbrdy on Oct 23, 2007 at 11:33:15 am     #



This link, http://www.cositoledo.org/membership.htm, shows that I have to buy a $55 membership to take advantage of COSI on a regular basis.

I was just over at AREIS to see what my portion of the levi would be if it passed. The 5 year levy is supposed to raise $1,556,852 annually (that is precise). My portion would be $2 on each of my two properties, or $4.00 total a year. I probably won't be using COSI at those prices so I probably won't vote for the levy. I probably could have been duped into paying more as a levy, and rather less as a membership.

posted by oldsendbrdy on Oct 23, 2007 at 11:52:27 am     #



An individual visit for me would be $9.00. Now that seems worth the ticket. Someone else can bring the kids.

posted by oldsendbrdy on Oct 23, 2007 at 11:54:03 am     #



Got this reply in question about putting a "counter" on the T-LCPL web site:

I’m pleased that you visit our website frequently - keep watching as new services will launch soon.

We do keep monthly statistics and track usage but we do not display a counter on the site – it would be simple to do. I will forward your suggestion to our website committee for review and consideration.

Thank you for your suggestion.

Jeff Wale
TLCPL
IT Manager

posted by oldsendbrdy on Oct 23, 2007 at 12:14:31 pm     #



Maybe one of the reasons that I utilize the library so much is that I am in an ideal location. I follow Chapin Street south across Broadway, cross Colburn, and go in the back way. When I am being smart I use the Internet to search for something I'm interested in, and reserve it over the Internet. Otherwise, I just browse the shelves. But are some people "too far" from their branch? I regularly use the Main Library, Heatherdowns (when I shop over by Southland), Toledo Heights (when I take an ambitios walk), and the Holland Branch (when I go out to Spring Meadows), and, of course, the South Branch.

posted by oldsendbrdy on Oct 23, 2007 at 12:28:25 pm     #



The above should have been "Chapin Street south across South Avenue". What the hell, it's all Toledo.

posted by oldsendbrdy on Oct 23, 2007 at 12:33:29 pm     #



Liberries also double as community centers/public forums/shoplifting training grounds:) So they have that going for them.

If you read some books in the 330ish section, you might see that dignified wages that rise with productivity, isolationist economics, low interest rates create affordable higher standards of livings where a few Andy Jackson's for the community are pittance well spent.

posted by charlatan on Oct 23, 2007 at 03:09:04 pm     #



Found this link on the net, http://nces.ed.gov/surveys/libraries/librarysearch/library_detail.asp?Search=1&LibraryID=OH0215&LibraryType=LS&LibraryType=CE&LibraryType=BR&LibraryType=BS&LibraryType=BM&ID=OH0215&details=2. It gives some information about what what is spent on our libraries, and where the funds come from. Click on "Income and Expenditure" at the bottom of the "box".

posted by oldsendbrdy on Oct 23, 2007 at 03:13:43 pm     #



The following .pdf, http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2007/2007327.pdf, off the NCES site provides a lot of information about library use by state. It was published in January 2007 but seems to rely on data collected in 2002.

posted by oldsendbrdy on Oct 23, 2007 at 03:55:37 pm     #



If you go to this link, http://nces.ed.gov/globallocator/index.asp?search=1&State=OH&city=Toledo&zipcode=43624&miles=&itemname=&sortby=name&Library=1&Status=Search+Finished&Records=2&CS=34ABE0F1, and click on the top entry for Toledo you get data going back to 2002. One thing of interest is that every other year shows a decrease in circulation.

posted by oldsendbrdy on Oct 23, 2007 at 04:28:50 pm     #



I went to the South Branch about 5:30 PM, and returned a couple of items. Since I was there I asked the librarian if she new how many members (cards) the T-LCPL had. She provided me with this "fact sheet" that has a lot of updated information.

2007 Replacement Levy Fact Sheet

Demand

The demand for services and programs offered by the Toledo-Lucas County Public Library has never been greater.

  • The Toledo-Lucas County Public Library circulated nearly 6.4 million items in 2006.
  • 3.8 million people visited the Toledo-Lucas County Public Libary system in 2006.
  • There are 299,941 registered borrowers, or over 66 percent of the population of Lucas County have registered for a library card.
  • The average Lucas County resident checked out 21 materials in 2006.
  • The Toledo-Lucas County Public Libary was asked 611,156 questions last year.
  • Last year, approximately 4,307 programs attracted more than 112,480 people system wide.
  • The vast majority of them were free and educational for adults and children.

Funding

State-based funds, which account for 53 percent of our Library's budget, have been frozen since 2002, despite the fact that cost have continued to increase.

With the local levies, our Library could lose about 47 percent of its operating budget.

Our Library could be forced to curtail a number of branch services including

  • Shortening hours of operation system-wide
  • Eliminating Sunday hours
  • Reducing or eliminating building maintenance
  • Cutting down on the number of materials available
  • Discontinuing replacement of computers.

Goals

Funds secured from this operating levy will be used to

  • Purchase new materials
  • Maintain upkeep of buildings
  • Promote cultural events
  • Continue to build the Web site so patrons can continue to search for books, digital records, images and periodicals
  • Keep computers and software current, including Kids Place and Early Literacy Stations, computers designed for youth.

posted by oldsendbrdy on Oct 23, 2007 at 10:34:18 pm     #



When you take 18.3 million dollars (the share that will be filled by the levy next year), and divide that by 299,941 card members that comes out to $61.01 a member if we paid by "membership". If the state removed its share (53%) we would pay $129.81 next year for each card-carrying member of the T-LCPL.

posted by oldsendbrdy on Oct 23, 2007 at 10:42:49 pm     #



Does anyone care to point out the bullshit in the Funding cuts listed above? I don't feel like shooting fish in a barrel right now.

posted by GuestZero on Oct 23, 2007 at 11:23:22 pm     #



These are the figures for staff:

Total Staff: 360.05


Librarians with ALA-accredited MLS: ___100.75
Librarians without ALA-accredited MLS: __33.80
Other Staff:_______________________ 225.50

Any cuts to the budget would probably require cuts in staffing which would require cuts in hours.

posted by oldsendbrdy on Oct 24, 2007 at 12:27:44 am     #



The above link to NCES shows these figures: total expenditures for FY 2005 was $30, 808,128 of which $14,666,761 was for salaries and wages, and $5,363,763 for benefits for a total of $20,030,524 (the largest single expenditure for the library). People cost money. That's were the cuts would be made, and those cuts would result in loss of hours. No way around that. If the majority of Lucas County voters are against the levy then cuts have to be made. Even if no new books were bought that isn't the major expenditure. People (with their expertise) cost money. If cuts have to be made that really give a "bang for the buck" they would have to be made in personnel which would have to affect the hours of operation.

posted by oldsendbrdy on Oct 24, 2007 at 12:39:10 am     #



Does anyone know this: are the state funds related in any way to local funds? For example, if we decide that we don't want to support a local library system would the state withhold funds for other, more liberal counties?

posted by oldsendbrdy on Oct 24, 2007 at 12:49:54 am     #



From what I could find on Salary.com for the Toledo area an MLS librarian would make between $45,000 (25%, maybe just starting out), and $59,000 (75%, shows promise as an admistrator maybe). We have 100 of these so that is $5,-$6,000,000 in salaries right there.

posted by oldsendbrdy on Oct 24, 2007 at 01:11:16 am     #



I sent this email to the T-LCPL this morning:

"I found out through a fact sheet I got from the South Branch that there are over 299,000 members (those with cards, I suppose) of the T-LCPL. How many of those would be children (18 or younger)?"

This is of interest to me because it would help frame some additional questions. When I asked the librarian at the South Branch this question yesterday she talked to another member of her staff, and I think looked at some documents. The figures she gave were 75,000 children and 225,000 adults.

The reason why this would be important, if we were looking at basing revenue on memberships, is because the T-LCPL (like many businesses) might have a different "cost" for memberships for children as opposed to memberships for adults.

I don't know how businesses would arrive at such a figure, but let's assume that we charged a straight $20 per child for children under 18 per year. This would bring in $20 ×75,000 children or 1.5 million dollars. If the operating expense next year is 18.3 million then 16.8 million would have to come from the 225,000 adults who are members, or 74.67 for each adult member. If we remove the state's contribution (based on FY 2005)then an adult member would have to $131.11 per year. If we feel really sorry for the kids, and drop their contribution to $10 a year then adults pay $133.59.

Now to me the interesting part would come when we surveyed the members of the library to see how many would be prepared to pay such a sum. I'd like to see enough people surveyed so that we have an accuracy of at +/-5%. What would a business want as accuracy?

I am sure that once such a survey was completed that we found find that a smaller base was available to spread the costs. Another survey would see even fewer in number. At some point it might be decided that memberships were generting enough revenue to maybe make competition a possibilty ("I can start a library and make money on memberships at those costs"), but too many businesses chasing the market isn't good either.

posted by oldsendbrdy on Oct 24, 2007 at 04:54:07 pm     #



I meant this for everyone so if you have questions on how the library is run please feel free to put them here. I thought that if I can't get answers from the library myself I might interest the Blade into doing the research and reporting. I often find that the questions I have aren't the ones that the reporter asked. Maybe, if we show enough interest, we can cause them to look at this for us.

posted by oldsendbrdy on Oct 24, 2007 at 04:59:47 pm     #



OSEB, I almost posted on this last night, but held off because I was waiting to see what other people had to say. But since you brought up the point I was going discuss...

In my house, we have four people. All of us have library cards. There is no way that I would shell out memberships for all four of us. If forced to buy a membership, I would purchase one and we'd all share it. Which means that you'd have to charge more per membership or go out and find more people to purchase memberships in order to keep the costs lower.

And actually, since I work in UT's library and I already have access to OhioLink's 87 participants, I'd skip a membership at T-LCPL completely. Even if I didn't work at UT's library, it'd be cheaper for me to buy a courtesy card for $25 per year than pay the numbers you're coming up with. For that matter, paid members of the alumni association (minimum annual dues are $35) have free courtesy card privileges. How many cardholders do you think would jump ship as a result?

posted by valbee on Oct 24, 2007 at 07:11:04 pm     #



Valbee, I think a lot would, but I am researching this because there are those who politically favor the "free market" over taxation as a way to run most things. I usually favor the free market myself, but the numbers I am coming up with (plus the fact that this system has been in place since the time of Dewey) would seem to make the idea of a library either through the "renting of materials" or "memberships" impractical for most people. I think a lot of this is "mind-set".

I pay maybe $50 a month ($600 a year) for DSL, and enjoy the speed of access. Maybe I could find better on the "free market" but that is what I am using (at least partly because of sloth). Yet I, as most people, would balk at the numbers I am showing for a "public library" with the budget we now have in Toledo (which is much less than my DSL). We would probably forego a membership, and (if we are could) use the library system of the university (also paid for with tax dollars). The only obvious advantage of "memberships" is that it would open the market to "entrepreneurs" who would compete with the "non-profit" T-LCPL for the "market".

posted by oldsendbrdy on Oct 24, 2007 at 11:24:07 pm     #



Valbee, for the heck of it I went over to Amazon.com to see how many books I would have to buy to even equal a membership were I paid $133.59 a year. I was able to put 11 of the most popular books in the history segment (with a $30 rebate on a Amazon Visa which I don't have) into my shopping cart to go above that amount before I deleted them. So for that segment of the population who "consume" books by buying them it might seem that a "membership" of $130+ a year would be a real bargain. Of course, then these books have to stored someplace until we can either dispose of them in a garage sale, give them to a church, or to a library. That is another advantage of a library -- they become the "attic" that the rest of us use to go to to find a favored classic, return to their shelves, and go back to our uncluttered homes.

posted by oldsendbrdy on Oct 24, 2007 at 11:57:39 pm     #



"Does anyone know this: are the state funds related in any way to local funds? For example, if we decide that we don't want to support a local library system would the state withhold funds for other, more liberal counties?

The libraries get 'local government funds' just like your local municipalities do. This used to be a set percentage (much of it based upon revenues from the state portion of sales taxes). That was changed a while back to a 'line item' amount which made the monies subject to the whims of the legislators...the figure has been roughly the same since around 2002.

The amount of local support you provide to such entities does NOT impact their state allocation.

On another note, so far, the conversation about paid memberships assumes that all costs would need to be covered by such memberships. This is a very interesting conversation, btw. However, most entities who rely upon membership dues for their primary source of funds do not rely solely upon such funds. Fundraisers, endowments, planned giving, donations from estates, etc...all provide additional sources of revenue for such organizations.

If our library had to reduce hours, I wouldn't have a problem with that. But - I'd want to make sure that they cut out the hours with the least business. Often, the cuts made by such entities are designed to impose the most inconvenience in an effort to generate more public support for any additional funding (cities do this with police and fire/schools do this with sports, etc.).

I'd speculate that most people who can go to the library during the morning could also go there in the afternoon. So maybe a reduction in morning hours might make sense in order to 'help' our 'working class families' who 'can't afford' to pay more and more every year and who are busy working during the daytime hours.

posted by MaggieThurber on Oct 25, 2007 at 07:54:28 am     #



I kind of agree with you, Maggie, concerning the most "inconvenience". The closing of the branches on Sunday I think has had an impact on many people who work six day weeks. I see a greater need for the branches to be open in the evenings than during the day, but I may be wrong.

I was joking with the librarian at the South Branch on how I come in sometimes two or three times a day. She said that I'm not the only one. If the doors are equiped with "counters" then the new branches probably can tell how many people are utilizing the branches on an hourly basis, and which days are busiest. Of oourse, there are functions besides direct service to the "borrowers" and "researchers". The libarians seem to be busy functioning as administrators, and helping to get the books on and off the shelves. With the advent of the Internet, and web connections I can research something I want on the Internet and order from the library. Sometimes I do have to be patient, though.

I know the South Branch is filled with kids at the terminals. Some seem to be playing games, and some doing research, but who am I to judge? One thing that I think the libary may be mistaken about is only one kid to a terminal. Such regimentation works against the kids when it comes to learning. It doesn't seem "natural". If they aren't disruptive I see nothing wrong with two or three or more kids gathered around a console "kibitzing" over some fellow's shoulder.

I am reading an interesting book at present titled "Everything Is Miscellaneous" by David Weingberger. I will quote a selection that shows his view of what is happening with education and the computer (and how this may relate to our libraries if we would let it):

"Nor could the disconnect get much wider between the official state view of education and how our children are learning. In most American households, the computer on which students do their homework is likely to be connected to the Net. Even if their teachers let them use only approved sources on the Web, chances are good that any particular student, including your son or daugher, has four or five instant-messaging sessions open as he or she does homework. They have their friends with them as they learn. In between chitchat about the latest alliances and factions among their social set, they are comparing answers, asking for help on tough questions, and complaining. Our children are doing their homework socially, even though they're being graded and tested as if they're doing their work in isolation booths. But in the digital order, their approach is appropriate: Memorizing facts is often now a skill more relevant to quiz shows than to life."

"One thing is sure: When our kids become teachers, they're not going to be administering tests to students sitting in a neat grid of separated desks with the shades drawn." (pp.144-145, "Everything Is Miscellaneous")

This books main thrust is that we are able to use the third order of order. The first order is the physical organization of things: shelvig books, organizing photos, etc. The second order examples would be card catalogs, Dewey numbers, and other ordering system that try to encompass a universe but eventually break down (Dewey developed his method to encompass his culture, and that is why Christianity has a broad swath of Dewey numbers and Buddhism falls under a narrow swath). The "third order of order" is what the web allows. For example, "Amazon itself is about as far from a Dewey-compliant library as one can get. Dewey created a single way to cluster books; Amazon finds as many ways as it can." (p.61 middle, "Everything Is Miscellaneous). He talks abot the value of the open-ended, never ending, miscellaneous web in which connection can be made both by the originators and their customers. Go to Amazon and you find not only the original review but those of customers for you may have an "affinity". I can't recommend this book highly enough. I think it is an eye-opener for any discussion of the web and education (although he spends a lot of the book looking at how this is affecting the ways we do "business).

Just like on the Internet we bring our own individual "baggage", the give and take leads to new answers, and "consensus" (at least for a time) that allows things to succeed.

posted by oldsendbrdy on Oct 25, 2007 at 11:46:30 pm     #



When I was in Hungary for the 10-year anniversary of the sister county relationship between Lucas and Csongrad, one of my 'stops' was a tour of the new library at the Univ. of Szeged (which also has ties with UT for student and professor exchanges, including in their colleges of law and pharmacy)...anyway...

Based upon their studies, they provided 'quiet sections' in among the book stacks and separated by thicker glass from other areas of the library. Opposite the atrium from the quiet section was the computer area (both sections took up multiple floors).

In the computer area, they had banks of single computer stations for individuals to use - but they also had about 20 or so tables joined into squares with a single computer for group activies and 'study groups' to use. Your post reminded me of this ...

In our Point Place branch - and in the OWE branch - the computer tables are in the middle of the large open area of the library. Neither branch has areas that could be considered 'quiet' though some are less noisy than others. This might be something for the libary to consider as they go forward.

And I'm with you about the hours...probably more evening/weekend hours - less early morning hours - if they had to make reductions for cost savings...

posted by MaggieThurber on Oct 26, 2007 at 10:05:59 am     #



I am a big fan/supporter of the Ohio library system and I think we have great local libraries. I use them for borrowing books, DVDs, and CDs. I also use the Local History room for genealogy and their on-line databases Heritage Quest and AncestryPlus.

However, I sometimes wonder if they are using our monies as efficiently as possible. There seems to be an awful lot of staff working in the branches and I really have no idea what they all do. It seems that with all the technological advances, the need for the visible staff at each branch should be reduced. Remember how long it used to take to check out a book? They'd have to remove the card from the book, grab another card with the correct due date, run it through their machine with your library card and then put the cards back in the book. Now, they scan your card, scan the book, and print out a tape with your due dates -- a fraction of the time. You can renew your books on-line. Returns no longer require a person at the counter unless it's overdue. If you've requested a book, you're notified via computer (either email or computerized phone call) that it is in. I realize that staff is needed to make this technology work, but it shouldn't be needed at each branch.

I'd like to see our local library continue to put money into technology. There is no reason why there cannot be self-checkout for books and magazines -- we do it in nearly every grocery store. They did have a machine at Sanger that allowed self checkout but it was terrible. I don't know if it is still there or not.

I'd also like to see a better volunteer program. I looked into volunteering and all they let you do is re-shelve books, work at their book sales, or work in the gift shop. A trained volunteer could be the first person talked to at the Information counter -- I bet a volunteer could take care of the majority of those questions. I'd love to volunteer in the Local History room which, at least last year, was staffed by 2 people. Why not just one person and a knowledgeable volunteer?

They'll probably immediately cut Sunday hours if the levy doesn't pass because I think they have to pay time and a half for the staff on Sundays.

But if they need further cuts, I hope they do some creative thinking. How about a two-tiered library card -- free for borrowing items but you pay a yearly fee for access to their on-line databases and local history room? Maybe more flexible use of staff, e.g. the information desks only staffed certain times of the day. Publicize these times so you'd know when to go if you need to get help from a staff member.

That said, I hope the levy passes. I love our libraries -- they are some of the best in the country!

posted by surfer341 on Oct 27, 2007 at 09:48:48 am     #



surfer341 - some really good ideas.

posted by MaggieThurber on Oct 27, 2007 at 12:23:31 pm     #



Well, I guess I'm not so off-the-wall about the way the computers are used. I remember going to the Main Library about three months ago, and using one their computers in the afternoon (around 3:30, I seem to remember). One of the staff, and finally one of the guards, kept coming to a couple of boys (looked about 16) who were sittng together looking at a console, and telling them they couldn't do that. Finally they were told to leave.

I was a little bothered by the kids, but the efforts of the staff to get them to quit was more annoying. I think they may have been trying to look at something that the "nanny" software didn't catch, and that the staff thought was a little to risque. I wondered why anyone would bother to use the computers except the kids since the environment wasn't really conducive to "research".

posted by oldsendbrdy on Oct 27, 2007 at 12:50:27 pm     #



I'm disturbed by the desire expressed in some of these posts for a return to subscription libraries: i.e., libraries only for those who pay a fee. Public libraries make the continuing education of everyone in a community possible. When I was a child growing up in Detroit, our family didn't have much money, and often our "day out" on the weekend was a trip to the branch library. Libraries are not only for casual readers--they are for engineering firms that use the library's access to standards to help create products for the marketplace, for students who use our online full text periodicals to write term papers from the comfort and convenience of their own homes, and job seekers that use library books and online resources to research jobs. The business who needs the phone or fax to another business in a hurry would be very inconvenienced by a librarian on the phone asking, "Are you a member?" if they did not have a membership. So would the average citizen who finds themselves needing help.

Industrialist Andrew Carnegie believed so strongly in the full public funding of libraries that he stipulated that any community he donated a building to had to raise taxes equal to one tenth of the value of the building each year, because he felt this made the community a real partner in his work.

As to the "rising costs" of libraries, let me ask you this: if you bought a car this year, would it cost more than 5 years ago? Or a gallon of milk? Nobody wonders if the cost of products or services steadily increases in the private sector, but the public sector is expected to be caught on some past century. I would argue that the library is a bargain. It subscribes not only to books, but to legitimate online information sources that are NOT free on the internet, like electronic references and full text magazine articles. For many in our community without personal internet access, it is the only source of many online resources. The modern public library is an improvement on libraries years ago. Why do we consider their funding so onerous?

posted by Linda on Oct 28, 2007 at 08:06:04 am     #



Perhaps, Linda, I have a different perspective on this. I didn't see that people were saying we SHOULD go to subscription libraries, but I am seeing a very interesting discussion about how some communities are privatizing their library administration and what monetary value people put on their ability to access our library. In fact, I've not seen that anyone says our current library funding is onerous...only questioning about the levy and if the replacement levy is going to be supported.

I believe that public libraries are important, but, unlike private sector purchases, I must fund any additional costs if a majority pass this levy. In a private sector purchase, I get the option of deciding for myself whether or not I believe I'm getting value for my money.

Value for my money isn't an issue for me in this library levy, but when we've got people telling us daily that our neighbors can't afford food and all the food banks are running low on supplies, I cannot help but wonder if the library has done everything it can to reduce costs so that those who are in difficult times don't have to have another increase in another area of their spending.

What if our library went to more electronic services? Increase in the short term for the technology, but a long term savings (maybe) in other areas.

What if our library reduced hours in the mornings in order to reduce costs? Or if they looked at the hours of most usage and arranged their schedules accordingly? Would that reduce the need for an increase - at this time - in levy dollars?

What if our library replaced (through attrition) some paid staff with volunteers? Would that reduce their costs over time?

There are a lot of what ifs - and it may be that they've already done some of these things.

My biggest beef with all these levies is that they appeal to the emotional side for a vote, not to any documented financial need (that has been examined by any independent auditing committee). And most people will vote based upon the emotion of the issue for them personally, rather than the fiscal impact such increases in taxes have on the community as a whole.

Interestingly, the Census Bureau, in their American Community Survey, evaluates average property taxes paid by median residential property value. Our area is third highest in the state for taxes as a percent of property value ... at the same time that Lucas County has the highest unemployment rate of all the urban counties.

It may be that all these agencies need a levy increase - it may also be that many of our neighbors cannot afford even the 'modest' increases being advertised. It's a fair to question if these agencies have done all they can to reduce costs (or if they've examined other funding options like subscriptions/memberships) prior to asking for more money.

Your perspective on this has, of course, added to the discussion.

posted by MaggieThurber on Oct 28, 2007 at 10:11:59 am     #



There migh also be a "hidden" or "deferred" cost. When someone was complaining about the property taxes she paid I pointed out that "renters" paid property taxes too (through their landlord, and increased rents). But she returned with an argument that I hadn't heard before that makes some sense. In some parts of town renters are getting "subsidies" from government funds. This throws things kind of out of whack. Because they aren't paying any increased taxes through their rents, but we are paying not only real-estate taxes, but also subsidizing their landdord's real-estate taxes by other taxes we pay to allow them to be "subsidized" in their housing. I guess that does make me kind of angry and depressed at the same time. So they have no relationship between what they pay as real estate taxes, or rent, and what levies are passed they help vote in.

posted by oldsendbrdy on Oct 28, 2007 at 12:15:08 pm     #



OSEB- I'm wondering where you got your staffing information? Does the library really employ 33.8 librarians without their MLS degrees? What about 100.5 with degrees? I think they're saving us money by only hiring partial people.

There have been a few comments about too much visible staff. Books do not come to the libraries from the publisher ready to go on the shelves. It takes clerks and librarians to process them, check them in and out, find them, put them away. The library also has a system of requests where they will send books to other branches. patrons can also turn videos and books from any library to any library and the staff will get them where they belong. This saves driving around town.

It takes staff members to povide these conveniences.

The suggestion to only open libraries at busy times is also impractical. Like any business, there are many behind-the-scenes things that need to be done to ensure smooth day to day operation and to provide the customer service that we all enjoy.

While working people are at work, many families and school trips enjoy the library during the day. Who is to say that pre-schoolers should lose their storytimes because you're at work?

And when I have a question, I really appreciate someone sitting at the information desk ready and willing to helo me.

According to that fact sheet posted, I think that the library is doing an excellent jobs with funding that has not increased since 2002.

As technology is increasing, we are fortunate to have TAX-BASED library system that is keeping up with the times.

posted by Valentine_Wiggin on Oct 29, 2007 at 10:49:34 am     #



http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/editorials/articles/2007/10/22/for_profit_libraries_a_sad_story/

--Here's a little info about the shortcomings of privately owned libraries.

posted by Valentine_Wiggin on Oct 29, 2007 at 10:50:34 am     #



By the way, the library is and will continue to be a free source information to borrowers across the county. For less than the cost of a proposed "membership" people can check out an unlimited amount of materials every day. And OSEB, if you would really like to pay a membership this badly, please make your check out to 'The Friends of the Library.' I'm sure they'd appreciate your support.

On the other hand, I think I'll just vote FOR ISSUE 16 next Tuesday.

posted by Valentine_Wiggin on Oct 29, 2007 at 10:59:54 am     #



Valentine_Wiggin, this is the link, http://nces.ed.gov/surveys/libraries/librarysearch/library_detail.asp?Search=1&LibraryID=OH0215&LibraryType=LS&LibraryType=CE&LibraryType=BR&LibraryType=BS&LibraryType=BM&ID=OH0215&details=2., that shows "partial" employees. Probably accounted for people who work less than 40 hours per week. Click the link called "Show All" at bottom left of "box", and go down to "staffing".

posted by oldsendbrdy on Oct 29, 2007 at 02:54:29 pm     #



Valentin, I will vote yes on Issue 16, and also for COSI. This comparison of "membership" versus "taxation" has shown me (at least at present) what a bargain the library is. It has also shown me that COSI is probably doing as well as it can (even with a $55 individual membership). But I still believe in questioning things, and not assuming we live in the "best of all possible worlds".

posted by oldsendbrdy on Oct 29, 2007 at 03:01:11 pm     #



Thank you, This site also answers the questions as to how much funding is through taxes and how much is state funded. About 13 million locally and 18 million through the state. I'd say that's a little less than half.

Your questions are appreciated. And I'm glad that you have proven that the Toledo Public Library needs to be funded through taxes. In this case, a membership fee is just not logistical.

posted by Valentine_Wiggin on Oct 29, 2007 at 03:07:30 pm     #



Valentine_Wiggin, don't give credit where it's not due. My efforts have convinced me (at present) that there is no better way. But for a die-hard libertarian I have proved nothing. I tried to be fair, and put out numbers that I could fully reference, but that still may not be acceptable. Something may be "found" by someone that puts my analysis on its head, or it won't be acceptable on the basis of ideology, even though I tried to make the numbers plain.

posted by oldsendbrdy on Oct 29, 2007 at 04:44:46 pm     #