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isn't that the truth......I work downtown and all around our street are empty buildings....except for the produce company behind us. so sad. Toledo could have so much potential

posted by stooks on Nov 07, 2007 at 07:29:34 am     #

They ran 12 years without a business plan.

They had no business plan for going forward if they won the levy.

Go to WSPD's site and listen to these facts straight from Dave Waterman via podcast.

I was pro COSI right up until I heard Dave speak.

This is a private enterprise who pays no rent, and no utilities - and still they cannot make a go of it?

Sorry folks - it didnt deserve the levy.

posted by billy on Nov 07, 2007 at 07:53:14 am     #

So an empty building is worth it billy?

posted by apophistoledo on Nov 07, 2007 at 07:57:54 am     #

WSPD what a joke!

There were against all four levies and for Myers and Catlin for school board. Well they were 1 for 6 (COSI) and the Toledo Blade was 5 for 6.

WSPD has become even more irrelevant…they are a complete joke.
.

posted by SensorG on Nov 07, 2007 at 08:29:31 am     #

There are many different things that building could be used for, even if its not going to be a casino. How about entertainment? resturaunts, bars, etc. It worked for the Oliver house.

And a question: How mant times have you (anyone/everone) been to COSI? Me - Once.

posted by tm2 on Nov 07, 2007 at 08:42:05 am     #

It is a shame about COSI. We are trying to FILL buildings – not empty them. Maybe there is hope yet though.

As for WSPD, I have it on overnight because I love to sleep to Coast to Coast. It’s pretty entertaining (funny, but not trying to be). So when Fred “I know Everything” Levebre comes on he is so annoying he forces me to get out of bed and change the station. Works great as a motivator to get up and go to work.

posted by Ryan on Nov 07, 2007 at 08:42:54 am     #

"So an empty building is worth it billy?"

COSI is the only thing that could go there??

Sensor - so dont listen to the WSPD staff. Just listen to what the COSI director said. Nobody put words into his mouth.

Ryan - Yes we're trying to fill buildings - should we be doing it by funding all the expenses and letting people move in for nothing?

posted by billy on Nov 07, 2007 at 09:06:34 am     #

Fuck the Blade. The bastards STILL have most of the influence. As long as the blocks run lucas county, you can hang up any ideas of the area being 'reborn'.

posted by Darkseid on Nov 07, 2007 at 09:08:16 am     #

(not wasting time on the WSPD debate)

There are still possibilities for COSI, especially if a larger organization (Metroparks, Zoo, TMA, University of Toledo) sees opportunity in the concept.

Under the umbrella of an organization with some endowed capital, anything is possible.

As for me, I used to be a COSI member when my children were younger. When the programming stopped being relevant to teenagers, our membership lapsed. I think part of the problem with COSI is that is geared toward children ages 3-12 and their parents (or grandparents). COSI needs to expand the programming and broaden its appeal to a wider market.

Also: if COSI is to continue, it will need much more than 1.5 million in operating revenue. It will probably need $3-5 million more for a makeover, new exhibits, and new marketing to restore its image. The levy, IMHO, was nothing more than a BandAid, although I did vote for the levy.

posted by historymike on Nov 07, 2007 at 09:12:41 am     #

We have lost tourism and tax revenue from the people that visited.

Isn't it a wash if you're using tax dollars to keep open something that brings in "tax revenue"?

We have fewer educational opportunities for children.

The kids who went to COSI haven't learned anything new in years. How is it that 90% of the exhibits there today are the same exhibits that were there 10 years ago?

I've got 3 to 1 odds that COSI "finds" money to stay open another year, and comes begging again during the presidential election.

You want the empty buildings downtown to be filled? Make downtown a business friendly environment and lower the taxes.

posted by TheTalentedMrC on Nov 07, 2007 at 09:18:01 am     #

It is very sad. Toledo is indeed losing one of the places that makes this a family friendly town.

Kudos to the COSI staff for making it this far, I wish them all the best.

posted by MaumeeMom on Nov 07, 2007 at 09:57:10 am     #

I am not understanding why everyone thinks it so great to keep subsidizing places that do nothing but lose money. We do still live in America right? Until Hillary takes office (God forbid) we are still a capitalist society.

With COSI hopefully leaving, it will open up opportunities for something that's actually fun for adults. COSI sucked in my opinion. It was boring, dirty, and lame.

Downtown Toledo used to rock about 20 years ago. I loved Portside. It had cool restaurants, floating docks, and parties. We used to go down there all the time. The only reason it ever failed was because the CITY OF TOLEDO was involved and charged way too high of rent. The businesses only failed because they couldn't afford to pay the city the rent they charged.

I remember when our downtown riverfront was always jammed packed on the weekends. Hopefully when the Marina District is finished, there will be something relevant that has moved into the former COSI building similar to Portside.

The key is to stop letting the damn city subsidize everything in this town. Haven't you noticed that every time they do, it fails!?

posted by FatBabe44 on Nov 07, 2007 at 10:54:28 am     #

The title of this thread is : "Toledo Loses Another Gem"

What were the other gems that Toledo has lost over the years? I'd like to know what I missed.

posted by jr on Nov 07, 2007 at 11:02:21 am     #

no, how about the fact that people are tired of paying for lies.
First, these so-called saving levies are promoted as a "temporary" tax. So they get support and get passed. Then, when they come back up for election they are labeled "not a new tax". Of course not, they've been in effect since it was first passed and now they want it to continue.

I'm tired of levies that turn into permanent taxes. The zoo is a perfect example. Their beloved levy was promoted as a "save the animals" levy. OK, fine, let's save the animals. Then, as soon as it's passed, the zoo announces the plan for a multi-million dollar park for kids. What the heck? I thought we were supposed to save the animals, not build a park for parents to dump their kids and avoid being parents.
Sounds to me like the public has finally wised up and become tired of the lying.
You want to keep Cosi? Take Carty's shower room out and use that money. Take the money spent on Carty's dog clean up and dog-sitting by government employees and use that.
Give me a break Toledo!

posted by tommy1 on Nov 07, 2007 at 12:10:55 pm     #

What were the other gems that Toledo has lost over the years? I'd like to know what I missed

we lost Krispy Kreme. That was a gem I often miss.

posted by tommy1 on Nov 07, 2007 at 12:11:47 pm     #

krispy kreme still lives on at your local Speedway gas station...

posted by billy on Nov 07, 2007 at 12:33:05 pm     #

yeah, but you can't get them hot and right from the oven.

posted by tommy1 on Nov 07, 2007 at 12:35:14 pm     #

No but you can pop one in the microwave for a second or two and its almost the same. LOL (im kidding, i miss krispy kreme too and i dont even live over there)

posted by tm2 on Nov 07, 2007 at 12:49:50 pm     #

or we could do the cosi route and ask the taxpayers to kick in $5 bucks a household and help bolster their business.

posted by billy on Nov 07, 2007 at 12:56:34 pm     #

All the talk about using the COSI building for "something that's actually fun for adults" or "How about entertainment? restaurants, bars, etc." is funny and at the same time very much pointless.

I don't think any of you (well, maybe former commissioner Margie Thurber does) realize that since The State of Ohio invested funds in COSI, for new displays and repairs to the building, they have a management interest in the building that lasts for the next 15 years. The only type of "businesses" that can occupy the building are so called "cultural" attractions. Quoting form the Ohio Cultural Facilities Commission website, "the facility must be used as a cultural facility available to the public for the term of the bonds issued to fund the improvements, typically 15 years."

That pretty much rules out Casinos (illegal in the state of Ohio), or bars, or restaurants, or luxury housing, etc. You also can't just plow down the building to make a park on the riverfront. Pretty much the only thing you can move in is something like a COSI. To bad the citizens didn't support what they already had. I suppose the city could just let it sit idle for the 15 years of the bond issue. How long did they let the failed "Festival Marketplace" sit boarded up? Sounds like a typical strategy for the citizens of Lucas county.

posted by tomtom on Nov 07, 2007 at 01:10:31 pm     #

"... closure a certain thing ..."

I don't feel like checking the news, and I noticed no one posted any links to news stories in this thread, so has it been officially announced that COSI will close? Does a news story exist, indicating closure is certain? Does a commandment exist, stating COSI must reside in its current location?

I don't believe COSI will close. As mentioned the other day :

• Nov 4, 2007 Blade story titled COSI says levy is matter of survival

Yet, a year ago ...

• Oct 21, 2006 Blade op-ed titled Last chance for COSI

posted by jr on Nov 07, 2007 at 01:13:32 pm     #

FatBabe44, you said that the City of Toledo charged too high a rent to Portside's tenants. Did they charge higher than the surrounding "private" realtors? If they charged less wouldn't the realtors have a legitimate beef because the city government would be subsidizing businesses with lower rent. It's a fine line for a city to own property, and rent it out. There can always be the accusations of favoring one business over another. The city should really consider getting rid of this property, and letting private enterprise take the resulting criticisms from the public. What would be the fair market value of Portside?

posted by oldsendbrdy on Nov 07, 2007 at 01:27:13 pm     #

TomTom, I should have read the whole thread before I posted. You have the most informative post. It seems all we have to do is wait 15 years until the bond matures, or pay back the $11.9 million (according to my addition) to the state. I am sure we can come up with levy to pay that off so that we can sell the property to the lowest bidder, and give them tax breaks besides. I love the Toledo electorate. Always knowledgeable, and forward looking.

posted by oldsendbrdy on Nov 07, 2007 at 01:35:09 pm     #

TomTom, could we pay back the bond issue with the proceeds from the sale of Portside?

posted by oldsendbrdy on Nov 07, 2007 at 01:38:11 pm     #

OK, if COSi is so great then let me ask a few questions: What is their daily attendence? weekly? monthly? What are thier gift store sales numbers? number of memberships? I haven't really heard much on how much its actually visited. Does someone have more info on this? Becasue if the figures are low, then no one wants to really visit, and if the figures are high, well then management cant balance a budget and wrk within their means. (just a guess but perhaps?)

posted by tm2 on Nov 07, 2007 at 01:43:50 pm     #

TomTom, what you posted is really interesting. If Portside loses its only tenant (COSI) what does that mean to the bottom line? If the electorate of the city of Toledo decide to make decisions that violate the terms of this bond what is the result? Is there some kind of financial burden that is suddenly added to our tax burden? If we say to hell with the Ohio Cultural Facilities Commission, and rent space at portside to restaurants are we required to pay the proceeds on the bond back early as a penalty? Are we stuck with something like COSI (maybe a strip club or a "Dave and Buster's" could be considered a "cultural facility available to the public") for the length of the bond issue?

posted by oldsendbrdy on Nov 07, 2007 at 01:55:35 pm     #

JR, I think you're right. The last article stated that COSI would run out of cash in December, and close. But I think a bunch of people (lured for their "last chance" to go to COSI) will save it for another month. Unless there are fiscal reasons why it is better to close in December (tax purposes, debt to be serviced, etc.).

posted by oldsendbrdy on Nov 07, 2007 at 02:03:18 pm     #

13 ABC is reporting that COSI "could" close in 6 months.
http://abclocal.go.com/wtvg/story?section=local&id=5748030

posted by justsimplyholly on Nov 07, 2007 at 02:07:51 pm     #

TomTom is correct about the restricted use. However, I've not been able to find the term of the bonds issued initially in 1997 ($10 mil) so if it was for 15 years, we've got a 5-year restriction for "cultural" uses ... but that is not to say that something couldn't be worked out with the state for the repayment of any amount of outstanding debt so that the facility could be used for something else, if we want.

As for closing, according to this 13ABC story ... they could close as soon as six months.

posted by MaggieThurber on Nov 07, 2007 at 02:10:37 pm     #

TomTom, I wonder why the management of COSI didn't bring this up (the debt to the Ohio Cutural Facilities Commission)? It is, to me, the one thing that made sense to ensure COSI stayed at Portside. Now we're stuck with an empty shell. I have no idea what kind of "cultural facility" could take the place of Portside. But then the state doesn't want to lose money, either, and they are taking a chance leaving this empty shell in Toledo. Maybe they'll take pity on the knot-heads that didn't have the sense to look into things, and allow our "curtural facility" to be a casino. I voted against Portside. Could we have a "do-over"?

posted by oldsendbrdy on Nov 07, 2007 at 02:12:10 pm     #

"... they could close as soon as six months."

So time exists for another levy try in the spring.

posted by jr on Nov 07, 2007 at 02:15:19 pm     #

This link, http://www.culture.ohio.gov/commission/cultural.asp, shows a number of "cultural projects" that have been funded through bonds by this commission, if I have it correctly. Maybe we could get a larger venue for one of our community theater groups? It would be free rent to them, and maybe they wouldn't need to pay employees. At least it is something to fill the building, and the terms of the agreenment.

posted by oldsendbrdy on Nov 07, 2007 at 02:23:55 pm     #

COSI should try a different "business model" (whatever that is). Really scale back, live within their means, start charging maybe $20 for each individual adult, and $10 a kid. Or maybe have a "traveling" exhibit (taking the info to the public). Or reduce the exhibits to be in line with what they are charging. Maybe they need professional managers. Maybe they need to "contract" out the work. Have a lot of the stuff done remotely by people in India. Since the library is loved by the people maybe they need to insinuate themselves in that system. Or maybe they could move portions of the exhibits out to the MetroParks where the joggers can glance at them as they stream by. Or put some of them on TARTA where people could "ohh" and "ahh" on their way to work, and home again. COSI should work. It just needs a different "business model".

posted by oldsendbrdy on Nov 07, 2007 at 02:35:16 pm     #

Wow, less than 24 hours and the truth about the finances starts to come out. From "before the end of the year" to "as soon as 6 months".... Talk about credibility! If they do hang on and make it to a spring ballot, what threat can they come up with? They've already threatened to close, and then backed away from the threat. What will they do next time? Put a basket of kittens on the high-wire bike?

The fact remains that the Chairman of the Board has no funding ideas going forward. The only idea they've had for the past two years has been to dig into the taxpayers pocket. My Chamber of Commerce had a speaker from COSI this spring. Great speaker (I learned he left when I tried to get him to speak to my Rotary Club, smart man), but he admitted that the cost of having a visitor in the building was much higher than the charged in admission. That's not the type of private business model that should be rewarded with a taxpayer subsidy. Sorry COSI, but the support just isn't there for you in current form.

posted by MoveToTheBurbs on Nov 07, 2007 at 02:40:56 pm     #

This link to COSI Columbus, http://www.supportcosi.org/join/, shows that Columbus charges $80 a year, and Toledo only $55. Maybe Toledo needs to raise it rates.

posted by oldsendbrdy on Nov 07, 2007 at 02:41:50 pm     #

COSI Columbus also closed part of their building after an attempt to pass a levy in Franklin County failed. They leased that part of the building to WOSU radio, creating a source of revenue.

posted by MoveToTheBurbs on Nov 07, 2007 at 02:43:46 pm     #

The Toledo Museum of Art is about all the culture this town can handle. I don't want casinos in this city any more than I want a hole in my head. What I want is somewhere that is fun to shop, stroll, picnic, listen to music, eat, or just hang out (people-watch or window shop).

Tell me where else I can do that downtown. Does anyone besides me remember the Portside I mentioned earlier?

Oldsendbrdy - what other surrounding properties are you talking about? Does the city own any other properties around Portside that would require rent? I don't know where you're going with that.

posted by FatBabe44 on Nov 07, 2007 at 02:46:54 pm     #

This link, http://www.cosi.org/about/finance/, shows where COSI Columbus got its money in 2006. Only a small portion came from memberships. What do we really lose if COSI closes? Those who really want to go to a COSI can go to the one in Columbus (unless there is one nearer), and there are good restaurants in that town when you get hungry. You can make a day of it, and get out of the dead downtown of Toledo. I've only gone a couple of times to COSI myself. Unless it generates revenue for businesses downtown is it really worth the cost of up-keep? Now all we have to do is find something to fill the empty shell of Portside that doesn't violate any agreements made.

posted by oldsendbrdy on Nov 07, 2007 at 02:55:12 pm     #

FatBabe44,
I grew up in southern Michigan. Just before I graduated from high school, in the early 80's, a friend of mine brought me down to THE Portside. For me, it was love at first sight! I loved everything about it, the shops, the restaurants, the smells, all of the colors, etc! I would actually come down at least once a week, all by myself, just to grab a bite to eat and watch the people. Then again, I did grow up in farm country and "city people" were a new thing to me...LOL!

So no, you're not the only one that remembers that Portside! I'd love for something like that to be Downtown again! I spend a good amount of time downtown with my camera, weather permitting, and my teen agers love going downtown as well.

posted by justsimplyholly on Nov 07, 2007 at 02:55:14 pm     #

OK, if COSi is so great then let me ask a few questions: What is their daily attendence? weekly? monthly? What are thier gift store sales numbers? number of memberships? I haven't really heard much on how much its actually visited.

One of the news stories I read this morning (NBC 24 maybe?) said that they had 2 million visitors in 10 years. Compare that to 3+ million that Fifth Third Field has brought in since it opened in 2002 (and they only operate half the year!)

posted by TheTalentedMrC on Nov 07, 2007 at 02:55:22 pm     #

The city charged a certain monthly rate to the businesses. Could they have gotten a better deal in the other empty properties in the down-town? Did the city charge rates comparable to private enterprise? If they had charged less than private enterprise wouldn't the private realestate firms had a bitch? Since they charged more the businesses left, but did they relocate to any other place downtown? No. These businesses relied on a government hand-out to stay in business. Once Portside began to charge market-rates they died.

posted by oldsendbrdy on Nov 07, 2007 at 03:07:22 pm     #

COSI was created without debt. It received $10 million from the State of Ohio (aka taxpayers money) and another $5 million in corporate donations. On top of that the facility pays no real estate taxes according to Lucas County Aries website. It appears we the taxpayers have subsidized this one long enough. If COSI cannot make it with ALL OF THE PAST & CURRENT TAXPAYER FUNDING, additional taxes will be more "Erie Street Market" type money out the window! Until the politicians of this community attract more industry, business and housing to help us fund current programs, I say no to new taxes. Those of us who have stayed in this community are picking up the slack for all of those who have left. NO new taxes until we get new (additional) taxpayers in this community!

posted by RobRob on Nov 07, 2007 at 03:10:20 pm     #

"What I want is somewhere that is fun to shop, stroll, picnic, listen to music, eat, or just hang out (people-watch or window shop)"

It's called Ann Arbor.

posted by jr on Nov 07, 2007 at 03:48:52 pm     #

The population of Toledo is down 25% in the last 30 years. The continued decline of population negatively impacts the resale prices of the homes your living in. You already have more homes than people to occupy them.

The loss of population makes the talent used by industries in Toledo to become more and more scarce, and will force the companies that employ the current population of Toledo to relocate where the talent went.

In order to attract younger people to move to Toledo it has to be viewed in a way that doesn't embarass the person telling his friends that he is moving to Toledo. In effect it has to be viewed as robust, entertaining, and culturally relevant.

For all the people on this thread who claim all it takes is lower taxes I say Bull. Talented people would much prefer to move to Ann Arbor than Toledo even with the higher Michigan taxes. It is also an indication why Ann Arbor is growing while cities like Toledo and Detroit are failing.

As residents of Toledo YOU have to market the city, YOU have to want to make people move there. Eliminating cultural institutions like COSI just dig you deeper in the hole. The $10 it may have cost you per year in taxes is nothing compared to the decline you're facing in the value of your property as this trend continues.

Competition between cities for jobs is really competition bewteen cities to attract talented people. Talent brings companies and creates jobs. It seems that Lucas County residents either don't know they are in that battle, or they have already given up, hoping they have saved enough to live on until they die... all the while the city crumbles around them.

posted by econbob on Nov 07, 2007 at 04:31:18 pm     #

I think you have this backwards, econbob...companies create jobs and that brings people and talent - that then also gives us the disposable income to increase the economic picture of the area, thus contributing PRIVATELY to such amenities.

When was the last time you heard some company say "I'm relocating to Toledo because they have COSI!" ???

Companies will locate or expand here if they can make a profit - and that has nothing to do with whether or not they've got a Library - but a LOT to do with their costs of operating, like the impact of property and other taxes...

posted by MaggieThurber on Nov 07, 2007 at 04:42:08 pm     #

From the COSI Web site, the endorsements for the 2007 version of the COSI levy :

• The Toledo Regional Chamber of Commerce
• Toledo Federation of Teachers
• Northwestern Ohio Building and Construction Trades Council
• Junior League of Toledo
• Ironworkers Local #55

A February 2006 comment about the local MathCounts competition, which pointed to a Feb 5, 2006 Blade story :

Hosted by the Toledo Society of Professional Engineers and sponsored locally by the BP Toledo Refinery, the [MathCounts] competition tests the area's top math students in sixth, seventh, and eighth grades.

Why didn't the TSPE endorse the levy? Their Web site still exists, but does the TSPE still exist?

From the COSI FAQ

Why was COSI Toledo asking for public support?

COSI Toledo’s current funding model calls for 100% private support. After years of operating under a funding model that included no public funding of operating expenses – something that is nearly unheard of for science and children’s museums – the COSI Board of Directors has determined that 100% private funding of COSI is unsustainable. COSI has lost money each year as a direct result of this funding model.

Is that report or data available for public viewing that says 100% private funding of COSI is unsustainable? How was this determined?

Business contribut to COSI, right? What businesses? Does COSI list the businesses who donate to COSI?

From a Dec 27, 2006 Blade story titled Donations keep COSI doors open - for now :

Although the hands-on children’s science museum will end 2006 with a measly $35,000 in its operating budget, contributions amounting to “a couple hundred thousand dollars” from The Anderson Foundation, KeyBank, and others may keep the institution operating long enough to forge a future, said Dr. F. Michael Walsh, chairman of COSI’s executive board.

Has COSI contacted every science, engineering, computer, and architectural firm in the area regardless of the company's size? The nerdy companies or companies that employ a lot of engineers or scientists. And I don't mean businesses only in Toledo or Lucas County but in the metro area.

Once enough investors have been gathered, get a new board that determines whether or not the current COSI building makes sense financially. Despite the current maintenance costs, that $1 rent may mean COSI stays at the current location, but who knows?

Maybe a new group of investors and a new board can find a new location and create a new business plan that means COSI can be sustainable with 100% private funding. We've got big vacant Food Town and Giant Eagle stores in Toledo. Those may not make financial sense either, since the property needs to be purchased or leased and the building renovated, but how do we know for sure that a new location is a bad idea?

"[T]he COSI Board of Directors has determined that 100% private funding of COSI is unsustainable."

How was that determined? How do we, the public, know that every possible idea has been tried? A levy fails, so just give up. That's a solution? Just give up? Pretty damn weak and spineless.

COSI has been losing attendance since 2001. Why? Again, maybe a new team, a new location, and a new plan can turn that around. But we may never know because the answer here seems to be to just give up.

If public COSI information exists that says every nerdy company or company that employs nerds has been hit up for money, and the current management has explored other locations in Toledo, and every idea possible has been examined, but COSI still will not work without taxpayer contributions, then fine, close it up.

I don't believe that everything has been done to keep COSI going with 100% private funding. Until someone can point me to the information that says otherwise, I don't believe the statement that 100% private funding of COSI is unsustainable. Maybe it's unsustainable with the current management and their plan.

posted by jr on Nov 07, 2007 at 04:45:56 pm     #

"create jobs and that brings people and talent"

When companies decide where to locate their primary concern is the availability of talent at the proposed site. If talent is available almost any business can be profitable. If the talent isn't available it is almost impossible to make a profit.

Nobody is relocating to Toledo because of COSI, however the declining cultural base of Toledo makes Toledo less attractive to other companies that may consider moving to or opening an office in Toledo.

It really is a chicken and egg scenario. Talent begets jobs which begets more talent and so on. Toledo is in a reverse situation losing talent drives loss of jobs which drives loss of talent. The only way to reverse the cycle is to start to give people a reason to want to live in Toledo.

I'll agree that COSI isn't a big part of the overall draw of Toledo, however the result of the voting yesterday is very telling how backward people are thinking of the downward cycle the city is in.

posted by econbob on Nov 07, 2007 at 05:01:55 pm     #

I just love the logic that says we should pass levies in order to prevent an building from becoming vacant downtown. It's only $20 a year, right? In fact, why stop with just passing levies to support COSI? Maybe we should pass a levy supporting the creation of a Toledo Mudhens museum that would fill a building downtown. Then maybe we can pass a levy that would support the Erie Street Market so that building doesn't become vacant. After these two have passed let's pass a levy that would create a museum in dedication of Carty and his political gaffs over two terms in office. We might be able to fill up the whole Fiberglas Tower downtown if we did that!

Each one of these levies adds to the economic burden for those living in Toledo. While one levy may not break someone financially, 10 or 15 of them can. Every time we add a new levy to our already overtaxed real estate we get closer and closer (or further and futher depending on how you look at it) from the point that people become economically overburdened. There has to be a time that we collectively say "no," and this was that time.

posted by HeyHey on Nov 07, 2007 at 05:07:45 pm     #

I realize this may not be in the same arena as a COSI, but Ann Arbor has the Hands-On Museum.

The Mission of the Ann Arbor Hands-On Museum is to inspire people to discover the wonder of science, math and technology. The Ann Arbor Hands-On Museum is a 501(c)3 nonprofit organization. As a nonprofit in the Ann Arbor community serving southeastern Michigan and northern Ohio, your support is needed and appreciated.

I'm not familiar with this place. Do taxpayer dollars help support it? The museum charges admission, offers a membership, and provides multiple ways to donate. Does this museum have an idea or two that may help COSI?

posted by jr on Nov 07, 2007 at 05:11:41 pm     #

JR -

You are correct, COSI certainly hasn't looked at every possible funding option. Right now, they can tell us that the current model isn't sustainable, but they don't have to show us the books, because they are a private business!

Oh, and as to you comment about Ann Arbor, I believe she's a dirty whore.... ;-)

Econbob -
We didn't move to Toledo 4 years ago because of COSI. We did so because the cost of living was cheaper than it was in Michigan. The closing of COSI will have no effect on those moving to the area. Nor will it have a detrimental effect on local schools because there are plenty of other resources to draw from. It's obvious that even the local schools don't use it as much, since attendance is down. Why do you call me "backward thinking" when I say that I simply can't afford more taxes. Especially taxes for a private business that can't survive on its own?

posted by MoveToTheBurbs on Nov 07, 2007 at 05:14:11 pm     #

MoveToTheBurbs, I didn't claim that you or anyone moved because of COSI. What I said was "When companies decide where to locate their primary concern is the availability of talent at the proposed site." Then I went on to make the link that "the declining cultural base of Toledo makes Toledo less attractive". By making Toledo more attractive to talented people to live, Toledo will be more attractive to companies that will bring jobs.

You state "the cost of living was cheaper than it was in Michigan" and "I simply can't afford more taxes". As more and more people choose to leave Toledo (Population down over 8% since 2000, and 25% since 1975) your taxes will continue to climb as the fixed costs of operating the city are spread across fewer and fewer people.

I consult with large corporations on the issues around real estate and site location. All I can say is that Toledo is a tough sell because the people who live there seem to have given up on the city and those things that could be attractive for other people to move there. I'm not talking about COSI, but about the general attitude to gut cultural insitutions in order to minimize short term taxes. It IS counter productive and backward thinking.

Also... As a point of fact COSI is (was) not a "private business".

posted by econbob on Nov 07, 2007 at 05:34:04 pm     #

Bob -

There was a time that cities like Atlanta and Charlotte did not have the "cultural facilities" that Toledo has today. Little Rock and Albuquerque were not as "attractive to talented people to live". Yet they moved there. Why? Because they were low-tax, business friendly places to do business. Not because the cultural elites would have a science center to go to once a year.

Toledo needs to rebuild from the ground up. That means that we may not be able to afford some of the cultural items you claim are necessary to draw new residents. However, if we become able to compete with low tax states, we can create those items. They can be funded with private dollars because people are not taxed to death.

Toledo has a lot offer. Great transportation links, plenty of water, and an educated workforce. We can compete with the Charlottes and Albuquerques of the world. But we need to take those painful steps and start making ourselves able to compete on taxes as well.

Point of fact, COSI is a private not-for-profit corporation. A 501©3. Perhaps they are not a "private business" like Ace Hardware, but they are not a government entity.

posted by MoveToTheBurbs on Nov 07, 2007 at 05:48:50 pm     #

It's all part of the Fed's natural business cycle:

posted by charlatan on Nov 07, 2007 at 05:52:11 pm     #

Maybe some kind of hands-on science museum, not necessarily COSI, would work at the DeVeaux Village Shopping Center, located at Sylvania and Douglas. Over the past year, that's become a hot little corner for new development.

DeVeaux Jr. High is next door, and several other schools are nearby. That location is close to a lot of residential housing, making it a walkable option for many. And it's only a mile or two away from the Secor-Sylvania-Monroe-Talmadge sprawl of shopping and dining.

New development activity seems to be spreading eastward along Sylvania, east of Secor. A new location might attract more people. It's still Toledo, although it's not downtown Toledo.

The Westfield Mall and Westgate redevelopments were lead by the business owners not government. Some taxpayer support was used for infrastructure or something, but it's peanuts compared to the revenue Toledo collects and will collect from these two new developments. This area of Toledo knows it can accomplish something positive without a bunch of government crapola. This ain't no Southwyck area.

posted by jr on Nov 07, 2007 at 06:08:56 pm     #

Econbob - Thanks for trying to inject some logic into the fray -- it's a tough case to make against the anti-tax zealots in these parts!

posted by bam2 on Nov 07, 2007 at 06:15:56 pm     #

Get outta dodge, the Elliott Wave Theory is bunk, like most TA. It's a good story though. Always looks good in the rearview mirror, but heck if it does much good trying to predict the future.

And didn't some sods declare that the business cycle was dead anyway? Nice try.

posted by bam2 on Nov 07, 2007 at 06:31:28 pm     #

"... anti-tax zealots in these parts!"

The three replacement levies all passed. The library and the metroparks got around two-thirds of the votes. Granted, voter turnout for Lucas County was less than 30%, but still, what anti-tax zealots?

posted by jr on Nov 07, 2007 at 08:05:09 pm     #

You state "the cost of living was cheaper than it was in Michigan" and "I simply can't afford more taxes". As more and more people choose to leave Toledo (Population down over 8% since 2000, and 25% since 1975) your taxes will continue to climb as the fixed costs of operating the city are spread across fewer and fewer people.

Here's the problem, the costs of running the city need not be fixed. If the people are fleeing the city, and they are, then why shouldn't the budget of the city decrease? Less people to serve, less money going out, right? Except you'll never see a government shrink, because that's a concession of power.

All I can say is that Toledo is a tough sell because the people who live there seem to have given up on the city and those things that could be attractive for other people to move there. I'm not talking about COSI, but about the general attitude to gut cultural insitutions in order to minimize short term taxes.

Show me the last time a tax expired, and I'll show you a "short term tax". There's no such thing.

Aside from that fact, these cultural institutions that are oh so important aren't keeping the companies we HAVE in town in the first place! OI was a stone's throw away from COSI, yet they felt that they'd be better served in Wood County.

posted by TheTalentedMrC on Nov 07, 2007 at 08:11:20 pm     #

We have lots of great things to offer people and businesses, but low(er) taxes is not one of them.

Everyone seems to say that the presence or absence of cultural amenities is a detriment to people looking at this area. Perhaps we should look at this from a different angle. Rather than say that the 'loss' of COSI (yet to be determined) is a detriment, it might be that potential residents will look at us and say 'wow - there's a community that knows what's important - a community that won't vote to increase my tax burden simply because a non-profit can't make a go of it in a bad location.' This perspective is just as likely as the one that could look at us in a negative light because we didn't fund an organization who told us they'd never come to the voters for a levy...

And no matter how many cultural amenities we have, Toledo's major drawback for residents is the schools. TPS, more than most other factors, limit our ability to attract new families into the city.

We're paying for our champaign tastes (increases for Library, MetroParks, TARTA) with the credit card because all we can afford is the beer. At some point, the bill comes due ...

In difficult economic times, its the amenities that get cut - except here ... as we saw yesterday, they're the ones getting MORE money while we issue gasoline cards, pay for heating, host forclosure seminars, etc...

And I've never advocated eliminating all these things, but I do believe that if we are cutting back because of less funds, they should be as well - and certainly not asking us for MORE money that so many just don't have.

posted by MaggieThurber on Nov 07, 2007 at 08:12:14 pm     #

The Toledo Museum of Art is about all the culture this town can handle.

Ain't that the truth. I don't know how much traffic the museum gets, but having lived in various parts of the US of A and visited other museums, I've concluded that Toledo's is one of the finest available anywhere.

I don't want casinos in this city any more than I want a hole in my head. What I want is somewhere that is fun to shop, stroll, picnic, listen to music, eat, or just hang out (people-watch or window shop).

So move. Who's stopping you?

Tell me where else I can do that downtown. Does anyone besides me remember the Portside I mentioned earlier?

Yes, I remember the old Portside. Anyone with reasonable intelligence said that Portside wouldn't last, would fail completely, and it did. What happened? You don't need me to tell you, but I will.

Sky High Rent. The cost of rent is relative to the net profit. Rent for commercial space at Portside was higher than anywhere else in Lucas County, unless you were one of the anchor stores. Profit, however, was lower.

Sky High Utilities. The only thing higher than the rent were the utility rates. Check the ceiling height, the insulation, the lights. It all adds up.

Traffic. Foot traffic depends on being able to park and walk. The competition to Portside is any mall in the area, all of which have acres of free parking and all of which are easy to get to.

Crime. What do we have plenty of downtown? Homeless people! Panhandlers! Groups of unsupervised economically challenged youth! Petty and serious crime! Ok, what don't we have? Police walking the beat.

And finally, we have Ohio Winter. You want to freeze your whatsis off, just walk around downtown Toledo in the good old winter time.

When Portside first opened up, my friends and I tried to come up with a business that would succeed at Portside. The only thing I could think of was a beer and hot dog stand. So imagine this. I somehow manage to clear the incredible hurdles of red tape, bureaucratic snarls and petty tyrants, and finally get my stand open. I'm outside near the party. I've got four attractive young ladies who can make change, say "Hi! What can I get you?" and, upon request, recite "BudBudLightMickMickLightCoorsCoorsLightandEmGeeDee" I stop in to count the receipts and pray that they don't steal me blind. I can't really lose with a setup like this, right? Who doesn't want beer, right? Just try this in the middle of winter, and I'll bet you couldn't give the beer away.

Me, I think it was winter, rent and utilities that killed Portside.

posted by madjack on Nov 07, 2007 at 08:25:46 pm     #

From lew's comment in last week's COSI thread :

Already BP,Sunoco, and others pay for parts of COSI. Others will climb aboard if we sell it properly ( Owens Corning makes 70% of the world's wind turbine blades, First Solar is a global leader in photovoltaic energy, The Andersons are leaders in Ethanol development). They all can help fund COSI in the future, and transfer the financial burden from the public sector to the private sector.

Why wait for the future? Instead of ever having a burden on the public sector, get those other companies involved now, if possible.

Has First Solar donated to COSI? If not, has COSI ever contacted First Solar? If not, why the hell not? It's possible that First Solar has zero interest in funding alternative energy exhibits at a hands-on science museum. Fine. Then keep contacting other companies in the metro area.

From the Lake Erie West article Open for Business :

But, while public agencies like the LCIC "have a supportive role to play, only the private sector can drive economic development at a regional level," says Nicholson.

OK, so maybe a hands-on science museum doesn't count as economic development. I don't know. But why can't the private sector also be the driving force behind a hands-on science museum?

COSI began in 1997. Whose idea was it to start a COSI in Toledo? Was it something from Carty's regime back then? Was it an idea from a councilperson or a county commissioner? And how did it wind up in the old Portside building?

Was this a government-led initiative back then, or did a bunch of engineers and scientists from local businesses band together to help bring a hands-on science museum to Toledo with the goal of encouraging the youth to think about an engineering career?

Back to the December 2006 Blade story

Dr. Walsh is talking to the Toledo Zoo and the University of Toledo to form partnerships for science education that might help fund some COSI operations.

What happened with this partnership idea, especially with UT?

Since COSI is asking all of Lucas County to help fund the museum, why does it have to be in Toledo? Maybe it works better in Maumee or Sylvania. Or give a little love to Berkey.

And since the word "regionalism" likes to be tossed around by public officials, maybe a hands-on science museum would work best if it was located in northern Wood County near the Bass Pro development.

If we're truly concerned about providing some kind of scientific educational org for our area's children, then it needs to be situated in the best possible location where it can have the most financial success, and maybe downtown Toledo is not the place. It's been there 10 years, and it's been struggling for the past several years. Hello. Relocate.

• Near the Westfield Mall vs. downtown Toledo
• Near Bass Pro vs. downtown Toledo

posted by jr on Nov 07, 2007 at 08:42:26 pm     #

The above comments still don't address this issue: "Q. Is it true that the Commission requires that the state obtain a leasehold interest in projects that it funds?

A. Projects that received bond funds issued prior to July 1, 2005, did have to sign a lease; however, for projects funded with bonds issued by the Treasurer of State (July 2005 or later), the facility must be used as a cultural facility available to the public for the term of the bonds issued to fund the improvements, typically 15 years. This is accomplished through a Cooperative Use Agreement.

For bond-funded sports facilities, the term of the Cooperative Use Agreement is typically 20 years.

Neither cultural nor sports facilities projects that receive General Revenue Funds are subject to this agreement."

So who is on the hook to the state? Is it COSI, or Portside? If it is Portside then won't a "cultural facility" have to go into Portside? So if COSI goes elsewhere will we have to find some other "cultural facility" to fill the void? Who pays the piper?

posted by oldsendbrdy on Nov 07, 2007 at 09:56:15 pm     #

We certainly need better oversight of the downtown. Whoever thought that taking that money from the state was a good idea might have really screwed up. I sure hope we can get control of Portside back into the city's hands, or maybe private enterprise. If we have no control over the structure we can't even tear it down. That might be bad news.

posted by oldsendbrdy on Nov 07, 2007 at 10:12:21 pm     #

This is a great link, http://www.governing.com/archive/1990/aug/mall.txt, that talks about the dream (and nightmare) of Portside. Where Madjack talks about the problems of winter, this article talks about the problems of summer (including the high costs of air-conditioning in a mostly glass structure), and the wasted space that couldn't be rented.

posted by oldsendbrdy on Nov 07, 2007 at 10:26:46 pm     #

What about this option for Portside? I can't quite remember the layout, but could it work as an educational institution? Could TU, or Owens Illinois make it work as a place to bring students? Maybe there are lots of places that can serve as schools, but is there any value to having classes down-town? Could it appeal to law students (since it is near the courts)? A faculty would be a fairly large middle-class that would bring money to the eating places in Toledo (especially if there were no cafeteria at Portside), and the student body would need services from the downtown.

posted by oldsendbrdy on Nov 07, 2007 at 10:39:18 pm     #

One thing brought out in the link concerning the history of COSI was that back in the 1980's and 1990's it cost $20,000 a month to air condition the largely glass structure. I guess there's a cost to being "the glass capital of the world".

posted by oldsendbrdy on Nov 07, 2007 at 11:29:06 pm     #

According to this link, http://www.culture.ohio.gov/docs/1998annual_report.pdf, Toledo COSI got the money from the state in FY 1998.

posted by oldsendbrdy on Nov 07, 2007 at 11:40:26 pm     #

Toledo COSI also received another $1.9 million, http://www.culture.ohio.gov/docs/2005annual_report.pdf, in 2005. Is this a poor business model? Does the state's citizens get stiffed if COSI goes under?

posted by oldsendbrdy on Nov 07, 2007 at 11:48:54 pm     #

One thing about voting against the levy. At least there will be no doubt that COSI doesn't have the "regional support" to keep getting money through bonds from the state. And that is probably a good thing.

posted by oldsendbrdy on Nov 07, 2007 at 11:51:53 pm     #

So I wonder how much of that $11.9 million debt has been repaid to the state? If the COSI "culture facility" was paying a substantial portion back that might have been why it never "broke even". From what I am reading Portside will have to stay a "culture facility" whether COSI is there or not.

Let's say $6 million of the debt has been paid so far, that means over $400,000 per year would have to be paid to the state to retire the bond (s). Of course, it could be more. They should have never applied for the bond.

posted by oldsendbrdy on Nov 08, 2007 at 12:40:35 am     #

Reading the above link about the history of Portside I can just see what a disaster the marina will be. There were visions then of traffic off the river coming there. Depending on any boat traffice to float commerce will die when fuel begins to top $4.50 a gallon. So in a few years we can go through this disaster all over again.

posted by oldsendbrdy on Nov 08, 2007 at 12:45:45 am     #

Somewhere in these charts are the American Dream(Mr. Cosi is merely a symptom of a larger travesty):

posted by charlatan on Nov 08, 2007 at 02:42:16 am     #

Thanks Charlatan for providing visual indicators of how collectivism is destroying not only our moral fiber but our economy too. I'm with John Galt:

************************
For twelve years you've been asking "Who is John Galt?" This is John Galt speaking. I'm the man who's taken away your victims and thus destroyed your world. You've heard it said that this is an age of moral crisis and that Man's sins are destroying the world. But your chief virtue has been sacrifice, and you've demanded more sacrifices at every disaster. You've sacrificed justice to mercy and happiness to duty. So why should you be afraid of the world around you?

Your world is only the product of your sacrifices. While you were dragging the men who made your happiness possible to your sacrificial altars, I beat you to it. I reached them first and told them about the game you were playing and where it would take them. I explained the consequences of your 'brother-love' morality, which they had been too innocently generous to understand. You won't find them now, when you need them more than ever.

We're on strike against your creed of unearned rewards and unrewarded duties. If you want to know how I made them quit, I told them exactly what I'm telling you tonight. I taught them the morality of Reason -- that it was right to pursue one's own happiness as one's principal goal in life. I don't consider the pleasure of others my goal in life, nor do I consider my pleasure the goal of anyone else's life.

I am a trader. I earn what I get in trade for what I produce. I ask for nothing more or nothing less than what I earn. That is justice. I don't force anyone to trade with me; I only trade for mutual benefit. Force is the great evil that has no place in a rational world. One may never force another human to act against his/her judgment. If you deny a man's right to Reason, you must also deny your right to your own judgment. Yet you have allowed your world to be run by means of force, by men who claim that fear and joy are equal incentives, but that fear and force are more practical.

You've allowed such men to occupy positions of power in your world by preaching that all men are evil from the moment they're born. When men believe this, they see nothing wrong in acting in any way they please. The name of this absurdity is 'original sin'. That's inmpossible. That which is outside the possibility of choice is also outside the province of morality. To call sin that which is outside man's choice is a mockery of justice. To say that men are born with a free will but with a tendency toward evil is ridiculous. If the tendency is one of choice, it doesn't come at birth. If it is not a tendency of choice, then man's will is not free.

And then there's your 'brother-love' morality. Why is it moral to serve others, but not yourself? If enjoyment is a value, why is it moral when experienced by others, but not by you? Why is it immoral to produce something of value and keep it for yourself, when it is moral for others who haven't earned it to accept it? If it's virtuous to give, isn't it then selfish to take?

Your acceptance of the code of selflessness has made you fear the man who has a dollar less than you because it makes you feel that that dollar is rightfully his. You hate the man with a dollar more than you because the dollar he's keeping is rightfully yours. Your code has made it impossible to know when to give and when to grab.

You know that you can't give away everything and starve yourself. You've forced yourselves to live with undeserved, irrational guilt. Is it ever proper to help another man? No, if he demands it as his right or as a duty that you owe him. Yes, if it's your own free choice based on your judgment of the value of that person and his struggle. This country wasn't built by men who sought handouts. In its brilliant youth, this country showed the rest of the world what greatness was possible to Man and what happiness is possible on Earth.

Then it began apologizing for its greatness and began giving away its wealth, feeling guilty for having produced more than ikts neighbors. Twelve years ago, I saw what was wrong with the world and where the battle for Life had to be fought. I saw that the enemy was an inverted morality and that my acceptance of that morality was its only power. I was the first of the men who refused to give up the pursuit of his own happiness in order to serve others.

To those of you who retain some remnant of dignity and the will to live your lives for yourselves, you have the chance to make the same choice. Examine your values and understand that you must choose one side or the other. Any compromise between good and evil only hurts the good and helps the evil.

If you've understood what I've said, stop supporting your destroyers. Don't accept their philosophy. Your destroyers hold you by means of your endurance, your generosity, your innocence, and your love. Don't exhaust yourself to help build the kind of world that you see around you now. In the name of the best within you, don't sacrifice the world to those who will take away your happiness for it.

The world will change when you are ready to pronounce this oath: I swear by my Life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for the sake of mine.

John Galt
The Twentieth Century Motor Company
From Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand

posted by babbleman on Nov 08, 2007 at 07:23:03 am     #

Someone asked ... "So who is on the hook to the state? Is it COSI, or Portside? If it is Portside then won't a "cultural facility" have to go into Portside? So if COSI goes elsewhere will we have to find some other "cultural facility" to fill the void? Who pays the piper?"

First off, "Portside" is the failed festival marketplace from the 80's - PORTSIDE no longer exists The state of Ohio provided funds to repair the building (owned by the city of toledo) and to purchase displays (owned by the state of Ohio via the Cultural Facilities Commission, and on display at COSI). So if COSI closes, the state takes back possession of their funded displays to do with them what they will - ebay, give them away, destroy them, etc.

The city of toledo is still in an agreement with the state for management of the building for the term of the bonds. As long as the city wants to put a cultural attraction in the COSI building then they can. Otherwise, it sits vacant.

So you and the city pay the piper with an empty building.

posted by tomtom on Nov 08, 2007 at 07:50:12 am     #

Portside, modeled after the pavillions in Baltimore's Inner Harbor, is now about to have it's plug pulled. When Baltimore went through the same type of downward spiral a decade ago, the city stepped in and charged local business pennies on the dollar to rent the spaces. They also courted a FEW nationally recognized stores and restaurants to act as an anchor. This took many years and many trial and errors, but eventually enough businesses thrived to become what it is today.

posted by Newbie on Nov 08, 2007 at 07:55:42 am     #

tomtom - there's usually some clause in the agreements that allow for the early repayment of the bonds...do you know if the agreement for COSI has such a clause?

If it does, then sale of the building to a private entity might generate enough money to get out of the obligation.

posted by MaggieThurber on Nov 08, 2007 at 08:51:30 am     #

Pick the successful, vibrant, future looking region that you want NWO to be like.

Then look at the underlying engine of that region: It will be made up exclusively of economically viable entities. That is, companies that make a profit. On top of that engine, like fruit on a tree, will be any number of economically non-viable entities that are supported by the profits of the engine.

Now look at COSI. Is that a company that makes a profit? No.

So if you want to be like other successful regions, why would you want to model behavior that is exactly the opposite?

The classic answer is that the economically non-viable entities will attract economically viable ones. But economically non-viable entities are fed by the profit that economically viable entities need to get started.

So the entire premise is economically backwards.

You don't start with the fruit. You start with the roots.

posted by babbleman on Nov 08, 2007 at 09:14:07 am     #

The solution for NWO is that every single person is going to become greedy bastards of the highest order, relentlessly worshipping profit.

Sorry, that's just how it works.

posted by babbleman on Nov 08, 2007 at 09:19:29 am     #

One may never force another human to act against his/her judgment.

And here we have the Big Lie. Hold food, clothing and shelter hostage against the desired behavior and you'll win ten times out of ten.

From TheTalentedMrC: Except you'll never see a government shrink, because that's a concession of power.

It's also contrary to the precepts of survival. For an organism to survive, it must continue to grow. It must seek more and better food, which in this case translates into authority, which allows the government to harvest more and larger taxes.

OI was a stone's throw away from COSI, yet they felt that they'd be better served in Wood County

Nice point.

posted by madjack on Nov 08, 2007 at 09:36:52 am     #

"For an organism to survive, it must continue to grow. It must seek more and better food". I think this might be a failed analogy. From the latest research I read making an effort to deprive oneself of nutrients may increase life-span. We have plenty of research that indicates that gluttony ("more and better food") shorters lifespans.

I think a better analogy would have been "for an organism to survive, it needs sufficient resources." Taking that as a true analogy, it should be possible for governments to survive in a "steady state" if the resources that come in match the services that go out. So maybe we need a Toledo that does what the majority decides what a government is supposed to do. And that means educating a majority ("good schools") in what a government can (and can't do). If government can't provide jobs then why do we have economic developement corporations as government entities? That needs to change.

posted by oldsendbrdy on Nov 08, 2007 at 12:32:33 pm     #

Tomtom, I can't believe that $11.9 million dollars went into just displays. I think the state (and us taspayers) just got taken for a ride. Oh, well, a million here, a million there, pretty soon were talking real money (to paraphrase Everett Dirksen).

posted by oldsendbrdy on Nov 08, 2007 at 12:35:20 pm     #

Maggie, if I was a real-estate buyer I wouldn't be eager to buy Portside. I'd bide my time, and maybe get that property, and some of our abandoned multi-storied buildings for a pittance. Things are likely to get worse (economically) before they get better. Why would any real-estate developer waste resources when he'll be able to get a better deal in four or five years. Let weather work on the property if he wants to demolish it. The weather (and vandals) will do a lot of the work for any potential buyer.

posted by oldsendbrdy on Nov 08, 2007 at 12:40:17 pm     #

I was one of the original COSI Toledo Team members. I worked there for 8 years, and I was very pleased that the levy for COSI failed. I can say with total confidence, that as long as the same people that put COSI in the mess it's in, are in charge (which they are), it doesn't matter how much money they get to bail them out. They will just over spend whatever they get. When the board chose to bring in a consultant, and give him free reign, they killed COSI. Firing Bill Booth was the worst thing they could have done. Bill was the heart and soul of COSI, and without the backing of the board his hands were tied. This mess could serve as a textbook case of how not to save an institution in a bit of trouble. Am I bitter? You bet!

posted by beenthere on Nov 08, 2007 at 12:56:13 pm     #

To talk about the original post I don't know if I'd describe COSI as a "gem". I went once I found it overpriced and not enough to interest my 5 yr old nephew for 2 hours.

The zoo was more entertaining despite an equally high price.

Had COSI asked for 1.5 mil in order to move to the zoo or to UT I'd have gladly paid for it. However I don't think a non-profit taking up valuable real estate for the sake of "filling space" is appropriate.

If all the space is filled and I have no money because of it I doubt I'd be happy.

posted by MikeyA on Nov 08, 2007 at 12:59:37 pm     #

No levy needed in Detroit.

Toyota Motor Corp. announced this morning it was donating $2 million to the Detroit Science Center to build the Toyota Engineering Theater.

The theater, scheduled to open in December 2008, will feature active seating, a rotating stage and a system that allows live hosts to interact with virtual 3D presenters to profile stories of engineers from across the state.

http://freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071108/BUSINESS01/71108025

posted by Toledolaw05 on Nov 08, 2007 at 02:33:49 pm     #

Toledolaw05, I bet every bright young kid who thinks about engineering in the future after being at that theater thinks of Toyota.

posted by oldsendbrdy on Nov 08, 2007 at 02:59:30 pm     #

Here is a section of an email I received regarding the whole COSI issue:

It is so frustrating to think that a place where daily I see children learning, and having fun while learning is going to no longer be available. Where are our priorities in life when the thought of having shopping, nightclubs, adult entertainment overshadow the future of our city. Providing one more place for adults to drink and party is not responsible as a society. Our children whom we are abysmally failing are the future of our town. If we continue to lose sight of what is really important where will Toledo be in just a matter of a few short years? COSI is a valuable asset to Toledoans and no one really wants to admit that. I am just so upset about it all.

You know the thing is that COSI was first and foremost a place of employment for me. I could easily go out to the mall and fill out a couple of applications and work in retail doing exactly what I do at COSI now...but its not about that really. For me COSI was the cool place to be. Watching the kids come in and have wonder, and ask questions, and want to know whats going on....it was fun. I love having the opportunity to get to teach for a moment. Even if it was just a small demonstration of a product we carry in the gift shop....but teaching the scientific principles behind the toys that they were buying and having fun with was such a great thing. It happend everywhere you went in COSI and now all of that wonder and questioning and excitement will be gone. It is a sad day for us all who have invested time in making COSI the best it could be in the circumstances we were handed.

posted by apophistoledo on Nov 08, 2007 at 03:34:59 pm     #

I'm grateful to the employees at COSI - I just regret that they will suffer the consequences for bad decisions made by their board.

But, of course, this applies to all my fellow citizens who are without jobs due to bad business decisions of their employer - and who are probably grateful that they don't have to pay the additional tax (no matter how 'little' it was).

posted by MaggieThurber on Nov 08, 2007 at 03:43:18 pm     #

Maybe they could rent some space to http://www.toledohistorymuseum.org/

posted by tm2 on Nov 08, 2007 at 04:17:29 pm     #

apop, you and your email sender are both assuming a position in which government should control the economy and the lifestyle that becomes a reflection of it. So from that position, you are arguing various value judgements on how the lifestyle should be controlled. For instance, "should we control the economy to create things for the kids or should we control the economy to create things for nightclubs."

What you are missing is that your detractors do not agree that the economy should be controlled in the first place. Kids are irrelevant. Its not that kids aren't important - it is that they have nothing to do with it.

It is controlling the economy that is the issue. You are arguing one issue (how it should be controlled) and you opponants are arguing another (whether it should be controlled).

It would seem to me that you first have to persuade the other side that the economy should be controlled. Then you can fight over kids and nightclubs.

posted by babbleman on Nov 08, 2007 at 04:20:24 pm     #

I heard Maggie Thurber say on her radio show that Carty and the Lucas County Commissioners have officially released a statement, encouraging COSI to keep its doors open. Will taxpayer money be used to fund COSI despite the Nov 6 vote? If so, why vote? Maybe that's why the majority of people don't vote because they know their vote sometimes doesn't count.

posted by jr on Nov 08, 2007 at 06:48:41 pm     #

The metroparks and the libraries are scattered around Lucas County while COSI is only in downtown Toledo.

I don't know if the vote details of the Nov 6 election are out yet, but I'd like to see how the vote count went for COSI among Toledoans compared to the rest of Lucas County.

Maybe the COSI levy barely passed among Toledo voters, but it was overwhelmingly defeated in the rest of the county. If that's the case, maybe COSI should make their next levy apply only to Toledo residents.

posted by jr on Nov 08, 2007 at 06:55:23 pm     #

Apparently, COSI announced today that they would close in mid-November. I guess that's what prompted the letter from Carty and the county commissioners, begging COSI to remain open "... until a logical future funding plan can be discussed ..." Something like that.

Be very afraid when government uses the word "logic."

posted by jr on Nov 08, 2007 at 06:59:58 pm     #

Just out of curiosity, how often did TPS take the students to COSI on a field trip? Does anyone know?

posted by madjack on Nov 08, 2007 at 07:09:37 pm     #

Did TPS get a "free ride" at COSI, or did they pay so much per child?

posted by oldsendbrdy on Nov 08, 2007 at 08:59:58 pm     #

Hotel Wino (formerly COSI) is now open for "business". Send me your poor, your drunk, your "space cadets". There's room in the inn. At least the "homeless" will be out of the cold.

posted by oldsendbrdy on Nov 08, 2007 at 09:02:55 pm     #

Here is the text of the letter sent to all board members of COSI. And, jr, I'm waiting for the precinct-by-precinct results for all the levies. Very curious about the results by jurisdiction...

November 8, 2007

Mr. David F. Waterman
Chair - COSI Toledo
Shumaker, Kendrick & Loop
100 Jackson Street
Toledo, Ohio 43604

Dear Mr. Waterman,

On behalf of the citizens of the City of Toledo and Lucas County, we encourage COSI to stay open until a logical future-funding plan can be discussed. We will work to seek the help that you need in order to make this happen.

In the meantime, we encourage you to keep your doors open. We fear if you close, we may lose this valuable resource forever.

Yours from Toledo – a City of the Future! *

Carty Finkbeiner Tina Skeldon Wozniak
Mayor President - Lucas County Commissioner

Pete Gerken Ben Konop
Lucas County Commissioner Lucas County Commissioner

• fDi Magazine – April 2007
  

posted by MaggieThurber on Nov 08, 2007 at 09:24:43 pm     #

No one has yet to comment on why COSI couldn't have attached itself to another entity of the are like the Zoo or the County.

My biggest problem with COSI wasn't even the funding it want it was the $$ it ties up in real estate that could be sold to profitable private company.

posted by MikeyA on Nov 09, 2007 at 09:33:20 am     #

MikeyA, this quote from the Toledo Blade I think gives as good an explanation as any: "Andi Norman, a zoo spokesman, agreed that the zoo is not in a position to help keep COSI afloat."

'When voters approved our levies, they placed a trust in us to fund the projects we outlined in our campaign,' she said."

Now funding from the county might be possible (oh, we voted down the levy, so I guess not). Now let's see what "profitable private company" will want to buy the real estate.

posted by oldsendbrdy on Nov 09, 2007 at 10:17:37 am     #

I read that article and I didn't think it had anything to do with moving only financing.

The only thing I read about moving was where COSI said that moving their exhibits would cost millions of dollars. I seriously doubt that because most of them are temporary exhibits. When I was there other than plumbing I didn't see anything that would cost millions.

posted by MikeyA on Nov 09, 2007 at 10:59:13 am     #

Mikey, Mikey, Mikey,

I think it would be really cool if COSI had a teleporter like on star trek, so they could instantly move their stuff, but sadly that is not reality. (Oh wait, I'm talking to someone that lives in toledo...) In order to relocate any business there will be costs (transportation, labor to tear down and reinstall) associated with the move. Not to mention that there would have to be some sort of renovation costs at the new location. That is unless the City of Toledo would pick up that tab, or has a nice new clean building ready for relocation.

I really doubt that their bike-on-a-cable ride could just be thrown in the back of your pickup and then re-installed by a temp worker using a slotted screwdriver. Get a grip, things cost money. By any measure, fact or fantasy, their $5/year levy would have been the cheapest way to keep them in town. I wonder how much money Carty and crew will end up spending to help COSI stay. My guess? More then $5/year.

posted by tomtom on Nov 09, 2007 at 11:52:04 am     #

There is no doubt that it would take some number of millions (plural) to setup a new facility, move the contents of the existing facility and pay for all the other general costs associated with relocating a business.

However, I'm not sure why any of this matters. The market can't support this business. So unless you are moving it to a different market, what is the point?

posted by babbleman on Nov 09, 2007 at 12:00:32 pm     #

I was one of the original COSI Toledo Team members. I worked there for 8 years, and I was very pleased that the levy for COSI failed. I can say with total confidence, that as long as the same people that put COSI in the mess it's in, are in charge (which they are), it doesn't matter how much money they get to bail them out. They will just over spend whatever they get. When the board chose to bring in a consultant, and give him free reign, they killed COSI. Firing Bill Booth was the worst thing they could have done. Bill was the heart and soul of COSI, and without the backing of the board his hands were tied. This mess could serve as a textbook case of how not to save an institution in a bit of trouble. Am I bitter? You bet!

Oh please, how naive are you? "heart and soul" don't run businesses, be it a non-profit or for-profit. I believe you are speaking more with your heart than your brain.

After being involved with several successful (and a few not-so successful) business ventures I find it difficult to believe that COSI's financial woe's started right after their board fired Bill Booth. Mistakes of that magnitude generally don't happen overnight. Perhaps "the worst thing they could have done" was not getting rid of the bad financial management of Mr. Booth sooner. Had they taken action sooner perhaps COSI would not be asking the voters of Lucas county for financial support or shutting their doors.

It's interesting that you say, "They [the current management] will just over spend whatever they get" since I thought that was exactly what the Toledo Blade criticized Bill Booth for doing with their money.

posted by bassam on Nov 09, 2007 at 12:53:58 pm     #

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