Toledo Talk

Kasich = 20% Education Cut

This should make high-tech businesses, professionals, quality people, and entrepreneurs flock to Ohio.

http://www.newsrecord.org/mobile/news/sg-kasich-s-cuts-too-much-1.2410530

created by ilovetoledo on Nov 19, 2010 at 11:30:17 am     Politics     Comments: 119

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Comments ... #

You mean, like people have been flocking to Ohio for the past 4 years under Gov. Strickland?

Locally, we have enough evidence to choke a horse that the funds allocated for "the schools" and "the kids" actually go to "the bloated administration" and "the bloated unsustainable union contracts". When federal money (i.e. stimulus) money was granted over the past 2 years, budget steps were not taken to cut spending, to reduce expenditures to sustainable levels, etc. It all went to funding more of the same lunacy with a stimulus band-aid.

If you didn't notice--with all that money thrown in the pot--not only did quality of education not go up over the years, our local wizards of finance couldn't even keep track of the money they had. 10.1 million lost--no, wait, we found it--no, wait, 5 million is missing--no, wait the state shortchanged us 15 years ago--no, wait, we paid a copy boy $100,000 a year while a beginning teacher makes $40,000--no, wait--we're prosecuting someone for internal graft of funds--and on it goes.

Any of the big city school systems in this state are in the same boat. Hell, the s#@thead who used to run our school system and pushed through all the expenditure on new school buildings (which look like some will have to be shut down from lack of students) is running the Cleveland schools. Great system--wreck one districts finances, move on to another (with a pay raise no doubt) and blow that up too.

I hope Kasich does throw down the guantlet on this bulls#@t. Tell districts that the unlimited money train has stopped. I think this is just a simple way to announce across the board "no more.

For an appeal, how 'bout this: tell each district that an accounting firm chosen by Kasich will conduct reviews and audits of every single district in the state over the next year and anything that auditor doesn't like won't be funded. If the districts can prove they are keeping administrative costs low, student facilities and acheivement at a high level, and have a plan to maintain that balance long into the future, then they can keep their funding. If they can't, f@ck 'em...let 'em raise taxes in their own community to fund what happens in their local schools.

It's called accountability. Some of us that run businesses have to live with our decisions. The shame of this plan is that small district schools that may be run extremely well will feel the same pinch as big city schools with bloat. That's the main flaw I see--which is why I suggest having an appeal.

posted by oldhometown on Nov 19, 2010 at 12:32:14 pm     #  

"Undergraduate Student Government" - lol

So now Student Governments are the all knowing economic advisors? You mean the same group that is fighting with their parents about the dress they wear to prom?

No wonder I have trouble following Dem logic, years ago I stopped worrying about what I was doing on Friday night after the football game.

posted by dbw8906 on Nov 19, 2010 at 12:53:38 pm     #  

"Student Government Body President Drew Smith also said Kasich should continue the 3C passenger rail program.

"[My interns] are working on the 3C rail program, which Gov.-elect Kasich wants to terminate, but we'll see how that turns out," Smith said."

WTF?? Did I just read that right?? I must be missing something?!? The Student Gov Body President has interns???

Please interpret this for me, as this sounds totally absurd. I applaud any students that are willing to take stands on issues, but.. interns??!!??

posted by JJFad on Nov 19, 2010 at 01:22:43 pm     #  

You know as well as I do that the forces affecting the state were well beyond Strickland's control. He confronted those problems well and followed repub's example to cut government. He was strategically investing in the state in education and infrastructure. He was very successful in limiting the effect of the Great Republican Recession and in laying the ground work for the long term restoration of a sound economy that the GOP trainwrecked. Now we got a Wall Street stock broker in charge. Heaven help us!

posted by ilovetoledo on Nov 19, 2010 at 02:04:48 pm     #  

The party is over, but some people still want to guzzle even though the keg is empty.

posted by 6th_Floor on Nov 19, 2010 at 04:07:36 pm     #  

Maybe this will be a good thing in the long run. Every year the cost of higher education keeps rising regardless of if we fund or cut their budget.

It is time to cut the fat out of education and rethink how our schools and colleges are run.

posted by toledoramblingman on Nov 19, 2010 at 04:30:56 pm     #  

Yes, let's "cut the fat out of education."

It's OK if the kids only know how to use Wikipedia to research, have decade old computers and books, are fed cheap processed foods fit for animals, and have teachers without adequate credentials or background checks. Cut away. Soon enough, an education worth anything will only be for those who can afford it. Sounds pretty archaic to me.

This is the kind of mentality that breeds the delinquents of tomorrow. This mentality is part of the reason that the U.S. is falling behind the rest of the world in terms of public education.

Conservative aren't willing to invest in the future generations, but they sure are concerned about straddling them with public debt. Seems sort of hypocritical to me.

It is possible to have an audit and keep closer tabs over spending without making a 20% cut. What a novel idea.

posted by brainswell on Nov 19, 2010 at 04:56:20 pm     #  

Tuition has gone up exactly because the repubs keep cutting funding for it. In the 1970s and 1980s, students paid for 1/3 of the cost of their education, and taxes paid 2/3, today it is exactly the opposite, students pay 2/3 and taxes pay 1/3. Reminds me of a saying I once heard, "If you think the cost of education is expense, you should try ignorance."

For all you tax haters, good luck finding competent employees to do your work for you, or qualified nurses, and health care workers to take care of you in your sickness and in your old age.

We are going back to the way things were before the 1940s when really only rich received a decent education.

posted by ilovetoledo on Nov 19, 2010 at 05:00:36 pm     #  

ilovetoledo, if you believe that the state has any business investing in anything, then you're long past understanding government.

The education industry in the state is a bloated mess. Cuts must be made. Deep cuts should have been decades ago, but we can't fix the past. We can fix the present in preparation for a limited future. All politicians should be sanely doing now is preparing for a limited future. Instead, you believe that they should be preparing for the usual set of lies about increased businesses and increased taxable economic activity. So you're so delusional that it's painful to even come on here and lay out reality for you.

posted by GuestZero on Nov 19, 2010 at 05:08:53 pm     #  

Brainswell, the US has fallen behind the rest of the world since we're saddled with a legacy union system that expects to get paid for performing literally no productive work whatsoever.

When your system costs the most and produces little, then budget cuts are the only rational solution. Instead, you seem to think that keeping the system buoyed up with bloated budgets is somehow-- and in direct contravention of historical evidence-- going to fix itself. Unions and pampered yuppies will never fix themselves. They just keep demanding more and more until the system collapses.

posted by GuestZero on Nov 19, 2010 at 05:13:18 pm     #  

You can research the topic yourself. Here is a good place to start:http://regents.ohio.gov/kea/Final-Success-Strategies-1029.pdf

The charts will show you that the trend has been clearly to cut higher education in inflation adjusted dollars. We continue to have cuts to state services and it does not seem to be helping.

GuestZero: Paradoxically, the Chinese, in their massive state-sponsored efforts at capitalism and subsidies of energy and education are kicking our butts.

Also, the unions that you speak of never reflected most workers. Whether it is slackers and malingerers at the top or the bottom, they have always existed. Union power has been gutted for decades so you can't use that excuse, even if it were valid.

posted by ilovetoledo on Nov 19, 2010 at 05:19:06 pm     #  

My aim is not to go around and around about the issue. For those who think cutting public education and other public services are good, then you will be very happy for at least the next four years. So, enjoy.

posted by ilovetoledo on Nov 19, 2010 at 05:38:37 pm     #  

Germany, Japan and Canada all have uninized teachers and unionized auto manufactures...yet here in the US, "they are the root cause of everything wrong."

posted by SensorG on Nov 19, 2010 at 05:41:33 pm     #  

Typical GZ fashion. Does not respond to any of the arguments put forth and asserts his own opinions as fact. Have you applied at Fox news yet?

I'm not even going to waste my time arguing with such ignorance. It's always the fault of the unions, isn't it?

What's that overused business cookie-cutter piece of business wisdom again? You have to spend money to make money. It applies to students too. You cannot expect to get a productive member of society with an education system that refuses to invest in itself.

I don't have a problem with auditing the administration, reducing the benefits for new hires, or decreasing spending not related to increased student productivity. Punishing the students is the worst choice that can be made, and it will definitely happen with a 20% cut.

posted by brainswell on Nov 19, 2010 at 05:45:43 pm     #  

I don't have a problem with auditing the administration, reducing the benefits for new hires, or decreasing spending not related to increased student productivity.
______________

Maybe you ought to focus on ensuring ^^^ those items are the focus of the 20% cuts.

Instead you just want to whine and claim Ohio is going to fall apart with education being cut in the first place.

I personally think both current salaries and retirement benefits should be a major part of future cuts in education spending.

SensorG, much of the Japanese economy has been in the toilet for the better part of 20 years.

posted by 6th_Floor on Nov 19, 2010 at 06:18:33 pm     #  

ilovetoledo,

Has it ever occurred to you that maybe educational labor costs are too high?

Additionally, has it ever occurred to you that a number of students don't pay anything to attend college? What tuition price are those students paying out of their pocket? Answer: 0.

In fact, many students are being paid a stipend to attend college.

Factor that into your equation and then tell us the average amount students' are paying.

Along with labor costs that are too high, the number of students attending free of charge have helped create the high tuition you are complaining about.

UT employees just "negotiated" themselves pay raises. They could give a damn about parents paying higher tuition, even during these difficult economic times.

posted by 6th_Floor on Nov 19, 2010 at 06:26:06 pm     #  

A few days ago, the Blade had a story how the schools pay 14% of their salary to their pension and they kick in 10%.

I wonder that number is at the college level. I know my boss only throws in 3% to my 401k. It sure would be nice to get an extra 10% from the tax payers to my retirement account.

posted by toledoramblingman on Nov 19, 2010 at 06:45:48 pm     #  

Brainswell: "I don't have a problem with auditing the administration, reducing the benefits for new hires, or decreasing spending not related to increased student productivity."

Awesome! We are in complete agreement on this.

Brainswell: "Punishing the students is the worst choice that can be made, and it will definitely happen with a 20% cut."

And who's fault is that? Who has the power to determine where the cuts are? I'm so tired of the reasoning that because I (a more conservative individual) say the schools are inefficiently run, have bloated admin positions and salaries, etc., that I somehow want the CHILDREN to suffer. I don't. It isn't me (or any conservative) that funds higher and higher salaries while the school supplies dry up and the buildings fall apart. There isn't a single conservative on the school board in this town. So, who is making the determination on cuts that hurt "the children". People who want to hurt the children so their gravy train isn't disturbed.

We (and I mean every citizen of this country) have given more and more and more money to the schools under several different programs (federal, state, and local) and somehow--with a cost-per-pupil of now $12,000+ in our own beloved school district--it's not enough. It's never enough. But when someone says "No more", they're the people--the demons--who want the kids to suffer...they aren't willing to "invest" in our future. F*#k that. I'm willing to invest millions in directly in the classrooms. I'm not willing to invest millions in a bottomless black hole of administration financial malfeasance.

20% is a minimum of what should be cut. You could probably lop off 1/2 the admin making 100,000+ and get a good amount of that money without hurting "the children".

posted by oldhometown on Nov 19, 2010 at 07:56:19 pm     #  

ilovetoledo said: “ GuestZero: Paradoxically, the Chinese, in their massive state-sponsored efforts at capitalism and subsidies of energy and education are kicking our butts.

The ecological disaster in China puts your concern into the dust-bin of history, for those who have a brain.

And what I said is still true: Government has no business being IN business. Government isn't an investor, since it competes with the real investment sector, which is private.

Whatever happened to the America that hated the Soviet style of centralized economic planning and control? Oh yeah, that's right, that sentiment died once enough of you had your jobs threatened.

You can try to spur fear of being left behind by a cheating, metastable government like China all you like. We educated men know it's pure bullshit and we're going to call you out on it.

ilovetoledo said: “ Union power has been gutted for decades so you can't use that excuse, even if it were valid.

It's entirely valid to point out how unionization is destroying the public-education system, since all the evidence demonstrates that the teachers and administrators are collecting paychecks for poor overall performance.

It doesn't matter how union history went. What matters is the teacher and administrator unions protect their incompetence now.

posted by GuestZero on Nov 19, 2010 at 09:14:28 pm     #  

ilovetoledo said: “ For those who think cutting public education and other public services are good, then you will be very happy for at least the next four years.

I will be, since we're only cutting bloated budgets of desk-driving morons. Why doesn't it occur to you that what's being cut is wasteful government spending? Do you really think that each dollar spent becomes a government "service"?

posted by GuestZero on Nov 19, 2010 at 09:17:25 pm     #  

toledoramblingman said: “ I know my boss only throws in 3% to my 401k. It sure would be nice to get an extra 10% from the tax payers to my retirement account.

That's part of the point. The system of compensation for public employees is bloated beyond our ability to cover it. Did you know that their pensions are built on the assumption of an 8% ROI? Each year? Every year? The frickin' economy grows about 2.5% each year, on average, but these human turdbags are counting on over 3 times the compensation that the economy is able to deliver.

For a supposedly educated class, teachers and administrators sure as fuck don't seem to understand where their paychecks truly emerge from. They come from the economic activity of the state. That means jobs, wages, sales, businesses. All of those are either fleeing or downsizing. Yet the demented public worker continues to expect magic winkie powder to be sprinkled on her bank account from the Columbus Fairy, or something equally insane.

posted by GuestZero on Nov 19, 2010 at 09:29:45 pm     #   1 person liked this

Additionally, has it ever occurred to you that a number of students don't pay anything to attend college? What tuition price are those students paying out of their pocket? Answer: 0.

In fact, many students are being paid a stipend to attend college.

Would it be too much to ask you for any statistics?

posted by dhr on Nov 19, 2010 at 11:50:42 pm     #  

toledoramblingman,

This doesn't include any 401k information, but does include salary information for UT and BGSU.

posted by 6th_Floor on Nov 20, 2010 at 01:59:47 am     #  

Speaking about China, they are spending money for GDP GROWTH. That does not necessarily equate to profit growth and therefore, their recent rapid growth likely isn't comparable to how businesses operate here.

Below is a video everyone should watch about Chinese "economic growth."

Ordos was one of the cities Mike Bell visited during his time in the country.

Maybe someone should have had him and his "advisors" watch linked video below before he rambled on about being "dazzled by the building frenzy in Inner Mongolia."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0h7V3Twb-Qk

Article about him being dazzled. LOL

posted by 6th_Floor on Nov 20, 2010 at 02:09:11 am     #  

http://www.toledoblade.com/article/20100918/NEWS16/9170418/0/RSS

Article about Bell being dazzled. LOL

posted by 6th_Floor on Nov 20, 2010 at 02:09:46 am     #  

http://www.toledobladedata.com/caspio/

Salary data for UT and BGSU. Posting links is a real chore for me tonight.

posted by 6th_Floor on Nov 20, 2010 at 02:31:08 am     #  

Teacher wages around the world. http://www.worldsalaries.org/teacher.shtml

Teacher Job Average Salary
Country Net Monthly Income constant 2005 US$ [a] [d] Notes, Source Gross Monthly Job Income Compulsory Deductions Weekly Hours

U.S. average salary PPP $ 4,055 $ 4,055 Full-time and part-time employees, 2005. U.S. Department of Labor, [t]. 5,266 dollars 23% 36.6
UK median salary PPP $ 3,075 $ 3,568 Employees, 2005. UK Employment Department, [9], [t]. 2,759 pounds 29% 32.5
Germany average salary PPP $ 3,065 $ 3,309 Minimum per month, 2005, normal hours of work. Federal Statistical Office of Germany, [9], [t]. 4,088 euros 35% 40.0
Australia average income PPP $ 2,793 $ 2,742 May 2004. Normal hours from collective agreements. Australian Bureau of Statistics, [9], [t]. 4,632 dollars 22% 39.1
Korea average salary PPP $ 2,643 $ 2,096 Excl. overtime and bonus, June 2005. All teachers, incl. tertiary level. Korea Ministry of Labour, [9]. 2,402,059 wons 11% 39.7
Norway average income PPP $ 2,573 $ 3,550 Employees, 2005. Statistics Norway, [9]. 34,186 kroners 33%
Japan average salary PPP $ 2,518 $ 2,961 Excl. overtime and bonus, June 2005. Women only. Private establishments with 10 or more regular employees. Japan Statistical Yearbook [17], [k]. 392,000 yens 17%
France median salary PPP $ 2,483 $ 1,950 All teachers at all levels. Full-time employees, 2002. Institut National de la Statistique et des Études Économiques, [36]. 1,900 euros 0%
Canada average income PPP $ 2,238 $ 2,236 Employees, 2005. Statistics Canada, [9], [t]. 3,868 dollars 30% 31.1
Finland average salary PPP $ 1,936 $ 2,311 Normal hours of work, 2004. Men only. Women make 2,586 euros per month. Statistics Finland, [9], [k], [t]. 2,654 euros 32% 36.4
Portugal average salary PPP $ 1,797 $ 1,441 Employees, 2003. Instituto Nacional de Estatística, [9]. 1,519 euros 21% 24.4
Austria average salary PPP $ 1,537 $ 1,231 Employees, 2002. Kindergarten teacher, women only. Austrian Central Statistical Office (ÖSTAT), [9], [t]. 1,600 euros 25% 40.0
Italy average salary PPP $ 1,441 $ 1,555 Normal hours of work, 2005. Istituto Nazionale di Statistica, [9]. 1,711 euros 27%
Thailand average salary PPP $ 1,216 $ 388 Men employees, 2005. Women make 17,123 bahts per month. Thailand National Statistical Office, [9], [t], [s]. 16,580 bahts 6% 38.0
Kuwait average income PPP $ 1,207 $ 1,506 Mathematics teacher, secondary level, 2004. Men employees. Kuwait Ministry of Planning, [9]. 430 dinars 0% 36.0
Peru average salary PPP $ 1,097 $ 474 Employees, June 2002. Instituto Nacional de Estadística e Informatica, [9]. 1,730 sols 15%
Philippines average salary PPP $ 1,069 $ 237 Employees, 2004. National Statistics Office, [9], [t]. 14,991 pesos 14%
Czech Republic average income PPP $ 1,042 $ 681 Excl. bonuses, 2005. Czech Statistical Office, [9]. 21,679 korunas 25% 37.9
Mexico average income PPP $ 1,018 $ 651 Employees, 2005. Instituto Nacional de Estadística, Geografía e Informatica (INEGI), [9], [k]. 8,146 pesos 13% 38.0
Poland average income PPP $ 1,013 $ 543 Employees, incl. kindergarten and tertiary level teachers, 2004. Poland Central Statistical Office, [9], [k]. 2,811 zlotys 32% 25.0
Hungary average salary PPP $ 918 $ 583 Employees, May 2005. Hungarian Central Statistical Office, [9], [k]. 181,045 forints 36%
Latvia average income PPP $ 804 $ 357 Adult full-time and part-time employees, 2005. Central Statistical Bureau of Latvia, [9], [t]. 277 lats 28% 31.4
Lithuania average salary PPP $ 788 $ 300 Employees, 2002. Statistics Lithuania, [9]. 1,403 litas 28% 29.4
Brazil average income PPP $ 745 $ 299 Employees, Dec 2004. Ministerio do Trabalho e da Previdência Social, [9]. 942 reals 10% 22.3
Slovakia average income PPP $ 706 $ 363 First-level education teacher. Employees, 2004. Štatistický úrad Slovenskej republiky, [9], [k]. 14,526 korunas 22% 31.1
Romania average salary PPP $ 588 $ 302 Men employees, 2005. Women make 1,143 new lei per month. Romania National Institute of Statistics, [9]. 1,244 new lei 30% 38.8

World trade has forced America to compete with third world wages. It started with cheap manufacturing goods that all Americans flocked to buy which caused the loss of middle class manufacturing jobs that supported public employees. Until all Americans support American built products the slide will continue till all of us live in squalor.

posted by wolfman on Nov 21, 2010 at 03:19:21 am     #  

It's not an apples to apples comparison given that many of the countries you list have universal health care, which of course,
factors into the "true wage" number. You can't forget that the US in the only developed country without it, or pretend that it doesn't mattter, or pretend that this is preferable. The US will never complete with wages on a globally level playing field as long as people such as your self remain stubbornly and selfishly committed to your brand of personal freedom.

This nation is falling behind educationally and nearly everywhere else and you selfish, constipated, boneheaded, gun toting, neanderthal, right wing idiots are to blame.

http://truecostblog.com/2009/08/09/countries-with-universal-healthcare-by-date/

posted by holland on Nov 21, 2010 at 11:21:26 am     #  

It's all pretty much a race to the bottom for the middle and lower classes that has been set in motion by the financial elites. They pit different classes against each other saying that one is getting something unfair, so the answer is to cut rather than to raise the other. Less work, less services, less taxes, fewer spenders, and so the cycle continues whether it be with government or private sector workers. Meanwhile, the few at the top are hoarding huge sums of money, fantastic wages, and despite what you say, investing in China's government sponsored capitalism that is increasingly dominating the world.

I wouldn't be surprised if the funding for the political right that bought the last election was mostly donated by the Chinese themselves because they want to keep American workers down and American politicians in their pockets.

Also, if you think the majority of teachers and government employees make fantastic wages for what they have to do and put up with, you are nuts.

Virtually all the teachers and public employees I know are diligent and work hard. They pay a modest mortgage, insurances, a modest car payment, and hope to have a modest retirement, with probably having to work another job at Walmart to get along. If that is considered extravagant and unreasonable then there is something seriously wrong with the priorities of our nation.

Like I said, from my point of view, this downward spiral is not the answer. Instead of reducing everyone to the lowest common denominator, we should be working to raise everyone up.

posted by ilovetoledo on Nov 21, 2010 at 11:51:30 am     #  

This nation is falling behind educationally and nearly everywhere else and you selfish, constipated, boneheaded, gun toting, neanderthal, right wing idiots are to blame.

Sticks and stones, my dear...

We've been trying it your way with the schools (and other areas of life) for years. More taxes. More programs "for the kids". Teachers may not all make fabulous salaries, but once tenured, they have much better than average pension system. Admin and teachers union leaders do make great money. The local cost now is pushed to over $12,000 per pupil, meaning it is at or above private school tuition in this area.

And yet the schools are an administrative and scholastic failure on many levels. So much so that people are voting with their feet and leaving TPS in droves. But the solution is "keep paying more"?

If you are enamored of how other countries do things, pay wages, taxes, wealth transfer, etc., then work for that at the ballot box here...although, I have to say that the idea of more money, more money, more money just got (to use the President's word) shellacked in this past election. We are not Europe. Never have been. Don't wanna be.

I'm sorry this information does not jibe with your outlook on life. If you want to volunteer more of your money to the financial black hole that is TPS, they accept cash, personal checks, and credit cards.

Me now go take shit and fire gun. Unga bunga.

posted by oldhometown on Nov 21, 2010 at 12:40:09 pm     #  

We've all become educational scholars by watching Glenn Beck here in Toledo.

posted by dhr on Nov 21, 2010 at 01:54:04 pm     #   1 person liked this

People, even rich people, who care about the future of this nation are catching on to what has been happening.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/11/21/warren-buffett-paying-more-taxes_n_786516.html

posted by ilovetoledo on Nov 21, 2010 at 04:01:00 pm     #  

If Warren Buffett, who has a great deal of disposable income, wishes to pour his money into the system, he can volunteer to do so. The IRS will not stop him. I encourage him to do so, and perhaps he already has.

However, Warren buffett does not speak for me nor how I wish the money I have earned to be utilized. I do not have billions, nor millions; therefore, every dollar I contribute is important to me. When I see waste and mismanagement of funds (something Mr. Buffett _would not tolerate in any of his businesses), it lessens my enthusiasm for continuing to "contribute" (under penalty of law).

Buffett can give (and has been giving) his own money away, and that's great. He funds a number of charitable causes around the world--a true philanthropist. But Mr. Buffett has not been elected to anything and therefore his affect and opinion on taxing the rest of us ends at the tip of his nose.

posted by oldhometown on Nov 21, 2010 at 04:24:47 pm     #  

oldhometown - "your way for years"? That's a good laugh. Three days after he took office in 2001 your beloved Goerge Bush introduced the "No Child Left Behind" crap. That worked out just great didn't it. What a selective and convenient memory you right wing blockheads have. When you do shit be careful you don't forget which is the TP and which is the gun, what with your memory problems and all.

posted by holland on Nov 21, 2010 at 05:06:04 pm     #  

Three days after he took office in 2001 your beloved Goerge Bush introduced the "No Child Left Behind" crap. That worked out just great didn't it.

Ted Kennedy co-authored NCLB. Supported its passage in the Senate.

From Time magazine: http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1918873_1918869_1918857,00.html
From ABC News: http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/02/bill-clinton-bl.html
From San Francisco Examiner: http://www.sfexaminer.com/opinion/columns/gregory_kane/No-Child-Left-Behind-Act-was-Kennedys-bill-too-56283782.html
From NPR: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=9434814
A generic web profile: http://usliberals.about.com/od/liberalpersonalprofiles/p/TedKennedy.htm
From Education Week: http://www.edweek.org/login.html?source=http://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/2004/02/25/24nclb.h23.html&destination=http://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/2004/02/25/24nclb.h23.html&levelId=2100

The EW article is interesting, because (1.) it cites Kennedy as one of NCLB's "chief Congressional architects" and (2) it cites Kennedy's frustration at implementation. That was in 2004. Dems won Congress in 2006 + the White House in 2008. 4 years and no action to "fix" NCLB? According to this article from late 2007, it "couldn't be rushed."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,307822,00.html
(Oh NO--a Fox News citation--get the garlic and crosses!)

Obama said he was going to overhaul NCLB earlier this year (you know, when he had a majority in both houses of Congress). Fail. Obviously, the Democrats hate NCLB so much that they decided to do........nothing about it.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/State_of_the_Union/obama-overhaul-no-child-left-behind/story?id=9725517

What a selective and convenient memory you have.

Note I was able to disagree with you without calling you names. But here's some advice: grow up and learn how to debate without name calling.

posted by oldhometown on Nov 21, 2010 at 05:47:40 pm     #  

Yeah,

posted by holland on Nov 21, 2010 at 07:30:50 pm     #  

I am grown up. What's happened here is that I've watched the republicans trash this country and you've stepped on my last nerve. So, you fault democrats for trying to compromise? Not surprised. Compromise is a novel idea to republicans. They do it so often. Republicans have the winner take all, scorched earth, politics is war philosophy. It's just bulldoze money to the rich and to hell with advancing the Country.

posted by holland on Nov 21, 2010 at 07:40:47 pm     #  

There's no "debate" taking place here and there never will be. It's dishonest to suggest otherwise. Call a spade a spade...if you think oldhometown is a bonehead (he/she is), go ahead and say it. Let them think they're taking the high ground, like some victory is being won.

posted by dhr on Nov 21, 2010 at 09:33:10 pm     #  

ilovetoledo posted: Virtually all the teachers and public employees I know are diligent and work hard.

-------------

LOL @ ^^^.

While I'll concede that it's likely a majority of teachers are dedicated to their profession, to say public employees work hard is quite comical.

posted by 6th_Floor on Nov 21, 2010 at 10:37:44 pm     #  

Holland, with her 2,500 gallon koi and 480 gallon goldfish ponds (per her statement from the water bill thread), claims Republicans and "rich people" in the US are killing the country.

She also added that certain toledotalk folks have "stepped on her last nerve."

Holland, you can huff-and-puff all you wish here. The reality is that many of the programs you think are untouchable are going to be reduced.

You and your fish ponds are situated well enough, the sky falling likely will miss your neighborhood.

You are mentioning other countries having national health care.

Meanwhile, Ohio teachers have some of the best health insurance coverage and they pay very little for it. Especially compared to what private sector and self-employed individuals would pay for similar coverage.

I don't think teachers should be working for puny wages, but in many states public sector employee costs have grown into too large a % of overall spending. Regardless where and how funds were spent, the working class tax base is out-of-gas.

In spite of some verbal fussing, the market would easily bear an at least 10% across-the-board pay reduction for Ohio school and education employees. Ohio has exported education college graduates for more than a decade.

If you can squeeze more out of the mega-rich you seem to despise, please proceed and good luck. However, us regular tax payers can no longer afford to pay more to support the bloated public sector.

Eventually, either via the ballot box or the bond market falling and forcing action, public sector spending is going to return to a sustainable level.

The drivel of conning people into voting for school levies for "it's good for kids" seems to have fallen on enough deaf ears, that levies are difficult to pass.

What is good for kids and the future is to reduce the amount of debt. If during the short and intermediate term time periods educational spending is reduced , then so be it.

posted by 6th_Floor on Nov 21, 2010 at 11:27:35 pm     #  

6th Floor you should know by now, taking money from person A through your monopoly on the use of force to give it to person B is the way to save the world. Obamanomics = Charity at the end of a gun

posted by dbw8906 on Nov 22, 2010 at 07:51:47 am     #  

What we hear too often from these gov't organizations and their supporters is that regarding the provided service, it's gov't or nothing.

To imply such is utterly false.

One of the ONLY things that can be done by gov't and not by private groups is involuntary taxation...raising money without permission of those handing over the funds.

Public schools, especially in Toledo have started a devolution. More or less they are going out of business.

If TPS administrators continue resisting these changes, they certainly will hasten their collapse. What they should instead work toward is accepting that since their monopoly has been removed via charter schools and vouchers, private enterprise is providing better services with lower costs.

posted by 6th_Floor on Nov 22, 2010 at 11:41:11 am     #  

private enterprise is providing better services with lower costs.

Stats, please. Back up what you say.

posted by Anniecski on Nov 22, 2010 at 02:46:19 pm     #  

Holland,

"What's happened here is that I've watched the republicans trash this country and you've stepped on my last nerve."

Just curious who is it that has trashed Toledo and Lucas County?

posted by toledoramblingman on Nov 22, 2010 at 02:52:42 pm     #  

Annie,

You already fully know in Toledo it cost less to send a kid to a private school than what is annually being spent per kid at TPS. Currently 13k annually and rising at TPS.

posted by 6th_Floor on Nov 22, 2010 at 06:30:14 pm     #  

"Just curious who is it that has trashed Toledo and Lucas County?"

Obviously, it's unfair trade practices.

"... in Toledo it cost less to send a kid to a private school than what is annually being spent per kid at TPS."

Toledo Central Catholic Web site

The tuition and registration fee for the 2010-2011 academic year is $7,600. We would like you to be aware that the actual cost of educating one student at Central Catholic is $10,906.

posted by jr on Nov 22, 2010 at 06:44:28 pm     #  

The tuition for St. John's is higher than CC, but still lower than the reported TPS expenditure:

Tuition for 2010-11 is $9,750. This includes all fees.

Please note, only 1 in 4 families pays full tuition.

Awards range from $450 to $8,750 with the average award at $4,750. Total Aid Awarded this year is $3.4 Million.

http://sjjtitans.org/node/119

posted by oldhometown on Nov 22, 2010 at 10:11:41 pm     #  

What also needs to be mentioned is not only are these places cheaper than tps, they are providing a much better overall education for that price.

Many of the k-8 private schools charge tuition less than 5k per year.

posted by 6th_Floor on Nov 22, 2010 at 10:20:06 pm     #  

Many of the k-8 private schools charge tuition less than 5k per year.

My grade school, Trinity Lutheran School in S. Toledo: $3,535 for a non-Trinity member. If you are a church member or decide to become a member: $2,100. That divides down to less than $300 a month for a non-member and $175 a month for a member of the church.

If a child's education for the future is priceless, I'd say this is pretty affordable. I'm sure other small private schools in the area are in the same ballpark.

posted by oldhometown on Nov 22, 2010 at 10:54:44 pm     #  

http://www.cardinalstritchhighschool.org/prospective_tuition.html

Tuition and Fees for the 2010-2011 School Year

Tuition Grades 9-12:
$7,900

Tuition Credits:
$300 per child for parishioners of Blessed Kateri Tekakwitha parishes*

  1. Multiple Student Discount: 10% discount for second child
  2. 20% discount for third child
  3. 30% discount for fourth child

posted by 6th_Floor on Nov 23, 2010 at 02:41:18 am     #  

http://www.nda.org/admissions_pages/tuition.html

Notre Dame Academy is either 9500 or 8500 per year depending on 1 or 2 daughters enrolled.

posted by 6th_Floor on Nov 23, 2010 at 02:45:46 am     #  

6F, isn't it funny how silent Annie became once you pointed out the patently obvious? She could have run the numbers herself, but her position as a distributor of propaganda for the TPS bars her from doing so.

Annie, the TPS is plowing through about $12000 per student, yet dares to delivers non-schools like Pickett Elementary, year after year. Anyone can beat that. 16-yrs old babysitters at $8/hr can beat that. Prison guards can beat that. It's farcical that babysitters and prison guards are what these so-called TPS teachers and administrators really represent.

posted by GuestZero on Nov 23, 2010 at 02:58:43 am     #  

From the Ohio Department of Education's 'Finance Related Data' Web page, a spreadsheet that contains Per Pupil All Expenditures data for every school district in Ohio from FY95 through FY09

  • Toledo -- FY09 -- $13,269
  • Washington Local -- FY09 -- $11,316


ODE report cards.

  • Toledo -- 2009-2010 -- met 4 of 26 state indicators
  • Washington Local -- 2009-2010 -- met 19 of 26 state indicators

posted by jr on Nov 23, 2010 at 09:40:38 am     #  

Per the linked spreadsheet jr posted:

Ottawa Hills spends 14k per year per student and they provide excellent service.

Anthony Wayne spends 7,500 per year per student and yet manages to perform much better than TPS.

GZ, since Annie is part of the school system through marriage and other family, it's mostly useless to debate this with her.

She likely wholeheartedly believes school employees should receive raises each year, teachers still are over-worked and under-paid, and the entire world would collapse tomorrow if more than a few teachers were laid off or paid lower salaries.

My focus is presenting ideas to other open-minded people that will possibly help defeat levies and reform the imbalances. Once informed, they are more able to choose how they will vote.

Now that TPS no longer has a monopoly, many parents have chosen to opt out from TPS. With opting out, it removes the funding that feeds the pigs at Manhattan and Elm.

posted by 6th_Floor on Nov 23, 2010 at 11:21:49 am     #  

Wow, you two cannot answer a question without getting personal. 6th, you even brought Holland's koi ponds into it, as though that had anything to do with anything. Shall we bring your predilection for internet porn into it as well?

Anyway, my point in asking for stats is that everyone talks about how much is spent per student without knowing the true cost-- or the true expenditure.

For instance, TPS has to put busing into its budget. Do the charters, or do they simply ride on TPS' coattails for that service? My kids attend a private school in Toledo, and yet I see a Sylvania bus there, picking up the kids who live in Sylvania. Is that part of the tuition I pay? No.

There are similar services that the state pays, that charters and private schools are able to take advantage of. But of course, they will always tell you that they are doing so much more for less, when in actuality, if they had to pay for that themselves, tuition would go way up.

Another example is the oft-touted SEED schools, the urban boarding schools in Washington and (I believe) Baltimore.

These schools -- as well as the private schools here in Toledo -- all have other ways of raising funds beyond tuition. The school my kids attend has a yearly fundraiser that brings in thousands, which goes directly to the endowment fund. The Catholic high schools have enormous endowment funds, many of which are supported by wealthy alumni.

Tuition may be lower at these schools than what TPS spends per pupil, but it is NOT the sole support of the schools.

posted by Anniecski on Nov 23, 2010 at 02:06:49 pm     #  

The per pupil expenditures (that i found for fy 09) are:Instructional $6916, building support $2517, Administration $1684(which is the #36 highest out of 614 districts) Pupil Support $1733 and Staff support of $419 for a total of $13,269.

The revenue is listed as $4203 local, $6676 state, $1975 federal for a total of $12854.

posted by tm2 on Nov 23, 2010 at 03:05:49 pm     #  

Annie,

Since you don't know me, of course the porn comment is nothing more than an unfounded personal attack and attempt to discredit my posts here.

The fact that you would even bring such a topic into a discussion about education, kids, and schools, provides a few clues about your own personal behavior and thoughts.

My comments about fish ponds were based on something Holland posted about herself. I was highlighting hypocrisy with a person in the Toledo area with 3,000 gallons of fish ponds complaining about "rich" people.

Returning to facts, instead of choosing your filth-minded method of using unfounded personal attacks...you personally benefit from the school payment system.

Therefore, any defense you offer the organization mostly should be disregarded.

Additionally, you defend TPS and other public schools, meanwhile your own kids attend a private school in Toledo.

LOL

posted by 6th_Floor on Nov 23, 2010 at 04:51:15 pm     #  

The school my kids attend has a yearly fundraiser that brings in thousands, which goes directly to the endowment fund. The Catholic high schools have enormous endowment funds, many of which are supported by wealthy alumni.

---------

Bring in thousands? Thousands, really? Big friggin' deal. TPS has an operating budget of a SEVERAL HUNDRED MILLION.

How much money are you speaking about when you mention enormous endowment funds at Catholic high schools? St. Francis De Sales went millions into debt during their expansion project.

I've also heard (rumor only) they are now delinquent paying some of that debt and are twisting the arms of their wealthy alumni you think have endless amounts of money.

posted by 6th_Floor on Nov 23, 2010 at 05:02:22 pm     #  

The Catholic high schools have enormous endowment funds, many of which are supported by wealthy alumni.

True, those funds are supported by wealthy alumni. They are also supported by mid-level alumni and less-than-wealthy alumni (like me). Considering the number of students those endowments serve, they are not enormous nor are they bottomless.

The list of donors to the SJJ Annual Fund (which disperses scholarships and grants to over 3/4 of the students) runs pages long...mainly because they print everyone's name who donates almost any amount over $25 or $50 for the year as a thank you. Sure, you get a few big donations (usually from someone dying and bequeathing money in their will), but the vast majority of donations are $50-$100 from alumni, alumni families, and gifts in memory of a student or teacher who has passed on. These are not wealthy people, but people who believe in the mission of the school.

As far as my Lutheran grade school, there is no "endowment fund"...only the generosity of the church members. Tuition <$4,000 per pupil per year.

posted by oldhometown on Nov 23, 2010 at 06:44:31 pm     #  

How much do you guys make? Do you have a Master's degree?

posted by dhr on Nov 23, 2010 at 10:55:08 pm     #  

DHR, we don't need big incomes or high educational milestones to be citizens and voters. And you also don't need either in order to determine that the TPS is bloated, wasteful and obstructive, as well as being a singular non-performer for its primary duty: To educate Toledo's children.

posted by GuestZero on Nov 23, 2010 at 11:16:07 pm     #  

"How much do you guys make? Do you have a Master's degree?"

Folks, I'm often asked about my qualifications. Well, I may not
have a lot of "credentials" or "training", but I tell you one
thing: I'm a Ph.D. in pain.

posted by jr on Nov 24, 2010 at 06:22:18 am     #  

Shh GZ and 6th Floor before dhr drops his "50 employees on the side" line on you. Or lays out one of his 16 masters degrees.

In his mind you should only be able to vote if you are on of the educated "elite". Us commoners should hand all of our possessions and opinions over to people who do nothing but goto school for a living. I mean our President never had any real world experience in business but he is real "smart", we see how that is working out.

posted by dbw8906 on Nov 24, 2010 at 08:09:32 am     #  

Academic credentialing is one of the last resorts of the mediocre, DBW. That's part of DHR's extensive inventory of mental illnesses.

It's amazing how many sacred cows and other biases that these so-called educated elites have. Ask any highly-educated Liberal about the right to keep and bear arms, for instance. It's like they don't believe the last two fucking centuries of common practice actually happened. So it's not education which happened to them; it was indoctrination.

posted by GuestZero on Nov 24, 2010 at 10:45:50 am     #  

dhr - I make more than enough to pay my bills and I don't have a degree at all. Why does it matter?

posted by odnation on Nov 24, 2010 at 11:00:49 am     #  

DBW, DHR is somewhat a mystery here. One day he is telling the world he has a handful of degrees. The next, he is discussing he has a side-business with 50 employees.

One thing he is very consistent about is his continuous cheerleading for public school employees.

I wonder if DHR offers a salary/benefit/retirement package to his employees similar to TPS.

DHR, if you wish to have stacks of degrees, enjoy your pursuit. You may stumble upon some useful knowledge along the way.

Myself, I have a Bachelor's of BA. After having to listen to professors discuss a bunch of methods and theories for a few years, pursuing another degree isn't worth the money or time involved. Especially knowing most of them have never effectively traded real money.

However, I have taken a few language classes after graduation that have been useful.

Many of the above-mentioned finance methods and theories I then thought were incorrect, have since proven in fact to very incorrect. Housing and equity markets have tumbled. Likely a bunch of academics are sitting around head-scratching wondering if anyone remembers that yet again randomness has trumped their methods and theories.

Ultimately, the faces sometimes change, but the game is the same.

Since these cycles consistently and eventually repeat, maybe it's time again to start buying tulip bulbs.

posted by 6th_Floor on Nov 24, 2010 at 12:30:03 pm     #  

I hope Kasich does throw down the guantlet on this bulls#@t.

-----

Returning more to the thread topic. Even if Kasich and his staff don't throw down the gauntlet, it appears many voters in enough districts have had enough.

Regarding TPS, prior to receiving paycuts, teachers will kick and scream more than the disruptive kids they complain about.

The selfish pigs will likely strike if the pay cut is more than 5%. Hopefully, it will be at least 5% so they can again prove it isnt "for the kids" and instead about them robbing the community.

Although still only a small probability, if they refuse great enough concessions and have a lengthy strike, there is a possibility that TPS could be completely dismantled.

Closing some of the new buildings, which people questioned in the first place, is going to turn more of the voting public against TPS.

A lengthy strike, during a deep recession, and abandoning children in this community they have been paid and trusted to educate, should be enough to fail any future levy requests.

These dipshits appear willing to follow Fran Lawrence over the cliff. She earlier failed to advise them to eat a teaspoon of castor oil, and instead now will eat a gallon of hog swill if they are to remain employed.

posted by 6th_Floor on Nov 24, 2010 at 12:57:27 pm     #  

Strike? LOL! They can't strike. They have big mortgages in Perrysburg and car notes to pay off. Boiling them slowly like the frog is a clearly workable option.

posted by GuestZero on Nov 24, 2010 at 03:26:42 pm     #  

As for the buildings, I can't wait to hear the screeching from the public when it happens. Brand new buildings will be shuttered, as any fool could have predicted, but apparently not the TPS so-called leadership, since they would have had to admit that their policies would drive children from the district.

Hey, retards-who-deny-this, we're still on the hook for hundreds of millions of bond dollars to fund that absurd re-building program, which was largely just there to make sure unionized construction trades and other construction mafioso got payola. Apparently paying tens of millions for wasted downtown residential development wasn't enough for you; now you're on the hook for TEN TIMES the fraud with the TPS. Got taxes?

posted by GuestZero on Nov 24, 2010 at 03:32:39 pm     #   1 person liked this

I hadn't thought much about teachers' household budget situation possibly making most of them financially unable to strike.

Does anyone here know what they are paid during a strike?

Each 1% pay cut equates to 1.6 million in budget savings.

The rest of however they choose to get to 40 million worth of cuts will be via layoffs, closing buildings, stabbing the backs of the less senior tps employees, and whatever else they can cut to punish the parents and students.

GZ, you are not alone in anticipation of the public outcry after they announce new buildings will be closed.

Many that won't publicly admit it, are anxious to see tps administration and the board eat crow.

posted by 6th_Floor on Nov 24, 2010 at 06:16:18 pm     #  

Well, 6F, that's why unions simply never strike anymore, or they only strike for a symbolic, short period. These yuppie pieces of shit loaded up on every periodic payment known to man. They literally can't afford to miss a single paycheck. Knowing this, being their real employers, we should press them to the walls until they scream. Of course, as you noted, they just knife the less junior union members in the back, but since the very concept of unionization is obsolete and actually evil in its operation, I'm perfectly fine with that.

The school Board is positively controlled by union stooges, but even they can't make more money magically appear once they've stolen and looted enough of it from the public. The last two attempts to steal and loot more money via the ballot box have failed quite strongly. So they must be in a panic. Panicked people make big mistakes. Let's see what these looters and thieves fuck up on next.

posted by GuestZero on Nov 24, 2010 at 08:54:07 pm     #  

Wonder what of teachers live in the TPS school district and what put their kids in TPS? I know a neighbor of mine is a TPS teacher, lives here in Michigan and her kids all went to private catholic schools.

posted by Linecrosser on Nov 25, 2010 at 09:18:42 pm     #  

ok percent signs didn't show up what Percent of Teachers live in the school district and what percent of them have their kids in TPS schools.

posted by Linecrosser on Nov 25, 2010 at 09:19:51 pm     #  

"... what Percent of Teachers live in the school district ... "

From a March 2004 thread :

Mr. Rahwae Shuman said : "What Mr. Ford failed to realize is that 70 percent of Mrs. Lawrence's membership lives outside of the city and can't vote for him."

Karen Shanahan said in an April 2007 Glass City Jungle thread :

... are you aware that 60% of the teachers and administrators of TPS live outside Toledo

posted by jr on Nov 26, 2010 at 12:20:20 am     #  

GZ I've been following this thread in silence. We sometimes disagree but I do respect your differing opinion.

posted by wolfman on Nov 26, 2010 at 02:58:12 am     #  

Nothing I have said is a mystery.

I'm asking how much you make and what your credentials are. Do you make more than a teacher? Do you have equivalent credentials? It's always easier to cry about people who have made better choices than you have.

I have 1 Master's degree and I work in higher education. The business operates without me these days, thankfully. I'm not sure why these simple things are so abstract to some posters here.

posted by dhr on Dec 02, 2010 at 08:40:28 pm     #  

I did make a better choice, DHR. I chose to never, ever work in a union position. I believe in merit, not entitlement and Socialism.

This is the truth that will come to visit the paycheck-collectors in the TPS.

posted by GuestZero on Dec 03, 2010 at 12:43:39 am     #  

You also believe that nonsense can be considered facts, random generalizations are wholesale truths, and that the bosses always know what's best.

This is the truth that makes you a hysterical poster here, but a sad reality about Americans in general.

posted by dhr on Dec 04, 2010 at 05:44:32 pm     #  

I would be a day without sunshine if DHR wasn't telling people how better he is than the rest of us.

Thank you for finding time to let us bask in your glory. I mean it must be hard for you to post on the board while you manage your "50 employees on the side" while you play 52 pick up with all your Masters degrees.

Please insult us again, tell us something else you know better then the vast majority of America. Please what would we do without you wisdom.

If you know better than the rest of us why have you not run for elected office? By your tone and superior intellect, you must be ruler of the galaxy by now. Oh I forgot there is no degree program for that...

posted by dbw8906 on Dec 06, 2010 at 01:41:52 pm     #  

https://www.strsoh.org/pdfs/50-943.pdf

The above link explains the various teacher retirement plans.

100% for 39 years of service?

Do they actually believe a program like the DB plan is sustainable?

posted by 6th_Floor on Dec 07, 2010 at 04:51:30 am     #  

Can dbw666 read, or is he just a senile old coot?

Yes, I'm a better human than you are, but that's hardly relevant. Fight me or STFU.

posted by dhr on Dec 12, 2010 at 03:18:48 am     #  

"Fight me or STFU"... you like your leader King Obama are nothing but hot air and pure BS.

I will honestly debate anyone on this site with facts. BTW I can do it with telling everyone how many Master's degrees I have, how much money I make, how I am smarter than 90% of all Americans, or how many employees I have "on the side".

You like all Libatards turn to insults and violence when you can't have an intelligent conversation.

"Fight me" rofl what is this 3rd grade. I wish you no physical/physiological hurt and hope you have a wonderful holiday season.

"fight me" that really made my day.

posted by dbw8906 on Dec 13, 2010 at 08:43:00 am     #  

Obama is nearly as worthless as you are. Neither of you would recognize a fact if it smacked you right between the eyes.

I don't believe in fairy tales or karma, so I wish you a slow, cancerous death. Quit ruining America.

posted by dhr on Dec 13, 2010 at 09:56:19 pm     #  

I don't believe in fairy tales or karma, so I wish you a slow, cancerous death. Quit ruining America.

Do they sell boxes of these holiday cards somewhere? I'd like to buy some for my former employers and supervisors...

posted by oldhometown on Dec 13, 2010 at 10:25:25 pm     #  

dhr I hope Santa brings you some happiness this Christmas season. Best Wishes for the New Year.

posted by dbw8906 on Dec 14, 2010 at 07:47:58 am     #  

oldhometown - I have a color printer someplace, but I think the sentiment works best in black & white!

dbw666 - I couldn't be happier, unless you were to disappear. Life is great with the Obama administration.

posted by dhr on Dec 17, 2010 at 10:51:50 pm     #  

Peace be with you

posted by dbw8906 on Dec 18, 2010 at 08:28:56 am     #  

Try harder.

posted by dhr on Dec 18, 2010 at 09:40:06 am     #  

http://toledoblade.com/article/20110102/NEWS16/110109954

Hopefully, much of what Kasich wants to reform will be accomplished.

It won't be easy.

posted by 6th_Floor on Jan 02, 2011 at 04:53:24 am     #  

Fight me or STFU.

After school, right? Me and you are gonna have a little talk about your big fucking mouth right after school.

Shit... I'll drop you like a rock.

posted by madjack on Jan 05, 2011 at 10:06:12 am     #  

Watch your words MJ as he might get in a tizzy and put a death-wish / voodoo curse on you.

posted by dbw8906 on Jan 05, 2011 at 11:41:50 am     #  

Now I'm afraid he'll tell his big brother on me... what ever shall I do?

posted by madjack on Jan 07, 2011 at 11:41:12 pm     #  

Bill Moyers November Boston University speech.

Watch this video on YouTube

posted by wolfman on Jan 08, 2011 at 07:04:36 pm     #  

While 20% is a start, in all seriousness it should be greater.

posted by 6th_Floor on Jan 08, 2011 at 11:57:20 pm     #  

It's unbelievable how clueless madjack & dbw666 really are. No critical thinking skills, elementary reading skills, and an entitled, loud mouth online. TPS education for both?

posted by dhr on Jan 09, 2011 at 09:32:05 am     #  

DHR, you sound like a TPS monkey yourself.

posted by GuestZero on Jan 10, 2011 at 03:30:06 am     #  

If that's the case, we can safely conclude you never went to school at all.

posted by dhr on Jan 10, 2011 at 07:08:20 pm     #  

Sylvania schools is out in front of Kasich with a 16% staff cut.

No mention of pay cuts, only teachers and support staff cuts.

Of course, the next time they ask for a levy, it will be about the kids.

http://toledoblade.com/article/20110111/NEWS04/110119950

posted by 6th_Floor on Jan 13, 2011 at 01:48:52 pm     #  

All you folks sucking at the state's nipple ought to move to Illinois. Instead of making needed cuts to their employees pay and benefits, they dedided to raise the state income tax 66%.

posted by 6th_Floor on Jan 13, 2011 at 03:00:42 pm     #  

private enterprise is providing better services with lower costs.

Stats, please. Back up what you say.

! posted by Anniecski on Nov 22, 2010 at 01:46:19 pm # +

Compare Fedex and the us postal service.

posted by Linecrosser on Jan 13, 2011 at 03:24:52 pm     #  

One makes a profit one doesn't, one continues to have a larger share of its type of business the other is failing. Tell me which will be here in 20 years with out taxpayers aid?

posted by Linecrosser on Jan 13, 2011 at 03:27:27 pm     #  

According to the NALC, the post office does not receive subsidies:

http://www.nalc.org/postal/perform/selfsufficient.html#subsidize

But they do have major problems, mostly due to retirement and health care costs. I posted at the end of this thread about the Post Office.

http://toledotalk.com/cgi-bin/tt.pl/article/72054/Post_Office_lost_85_Billion_last_year

posted by oldhometown on Jan 13, 2011 at 03:42:46 pm     #  

Oldhometown, you picked the wrong agency for your purposes, but the right one for mine.

The US government is run by deception. We're told the USPS doesn't run off government subsidy, but the wiki and other pages on it are full of examples of government support.

The USPS has a mailbox monopoly, which competitors cannot make use of. It is exempt from local and state taxes, which competitors cannot make use of. It has "subsidies for costs associated with the disabled and overseas voters", which competitors cannot make use of. And now the goddamned thing is "borrowing money from the U.S. Treasury to pay its deficits".

We sit here and pretend that it's independent, but it isn't. The real fix is to get rid of government support, as well as restrictions like its unions. Also, unions are completely inhibiting in the nation today. Destroying them is the only rational course.

posted by GuestZero on Jan 13, 2011 at 04:05:09 pm     #  

Watch out! GZ did his research on Wikipedia!

Manual laborers should really know their role. The internet is at fault for making them think they should speak up.

posted by dhr on Jan 13, 2011 at 09:14:18 pm     #  

"Wiki and other pages". Not that details ever penetrated your ideology in the first place. Speaking of which, DHR, your contempt for research that counters your ideology is well expressed.

The entire idea of collective bargaining becomes completely broken when there's no opposition, as in government work. Government managers don't care to control costs. Hence they are not proper stewards of the payer side. That's why they signed all those ridiculous labor contracts over these past decades.

Government unions are the ones which need to be utterly destroyed for all time.

posted by GuestZero on Jan 14, 2011 at 06:03:49 am     #  

I get paid well to research. Step up to the plate, little guy.

"Other pages" is great comedy, though. Thanks for repeating it. What's David Icke up to these days? 9-11 was an inside job and there was no moon landing.

posted by dhr on Jan 14, 2011 at 09:33:26 pm     #  

For a researcher, you sure are light on facts and heavy on contempt. That's because I've already posted the facts, which you ideologically can't accept.

posted by GuestZero on Jan 15, 2011 at 01:55:44 am     #  

It appears now that Sylvania is looking into pay cuts to offset some of the proposed layoffs.

In my opinion, the parents and voters there should demand pay cuts.

posted by 6th_Floor on Jan 15, 2011 at 04:31:05 am     #  

For a researcher, you sure are light on facts and heavy on contempt. That's because I've already posted the facts, which you ideologically can't accept.

You need to read a little closer and start acknowledging context. These are key aspects of an intelligent community. Strive for something better.

posted by dhr on Jan 15, 2011 at 10:54:16 am     #  

You wasted yet another posting, DHR. You're light on the facts, because you're heavy on the ideology.

Once again, this isn't about me. You keep wasting posts in talking about ME. It's about what I've said. And you don't dare address any of that, since you already lost the argument on the basis of the facts and logic of the matter.

posted by GuestZero on Jan 16, 2011 at 01:15:42 am     #  

Unions Mobilize Against Curbs
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB20001424052748704637704576082290141273876.html#articleTabs=article

posted by wolfman on Jan 16, 2011 at 02:15:17 am     #  

I don't address anything you've said, GZ, because you haven't said anything at all. I'm only here for entertainment. I don't particularly care what happens locally. I'm just visiting.

I think you need to buy a dictionary and start using it.

posted by dhr on Jan 16, 2011 at 11:22:09 am     #  

Give dhr a break needed a dictionary so he could research and come up with "STFU or fight me"

We can't address anything you say because you do nothing but troll and give nothing to the coversation.

GZ your wasting your breath, he is to busy cleaning his mom's basement as she got on for him for not cleaning his room. Please don't feed the troll, let him doddle along in his 15 master's fantasy.

posted by dbw8906 on Jan 16, 2011 at 08:01:56 pm     #   1 person liked this

"STFU or fight me"

Careful! He'll tell his big brother on you.

busy cleaning his mom's basement...

Possibly she refused to clean it anymore because of the smell and mysterious stains on the floor.

posted by madjack on Jan 17, 2011 at 11:22:13 am     #  

Let him report me as I forwarded his death wishes, invitations to violence, and his request for me to "disappear" to my lawyer a long time ago.

posted by dbw8906 on Jan 17, 2011 at 12:09:00 pm     #  

DHR said: “ I don't address anything you've said, GZ, because you haven't said anything at all. I'm only here for entertainment. I don't particularly care what happens locally. I'm just visiting.

Marvelous, DHR. 4 sentences, with 4 solid lies.

Of course I've said things of substance. Any person can read what I wrote and conclude that. Ideologically, you can't accept that.

It's endemic that when cornered, a propagandist like you pretends that it's no big deal, that it doesn't matter, etc. The entire attitude involves moving from a propaganda attack to a propaganda defense. It's just another tactic in support of your goal of deceit.

Dbw may be right about you, but your sort of voice of deception is particularly pervasive in our society. I view that problem as a challenge, requiring a constant response. Over time, such matters do start to touch some individuals, as they wake up from your particular, demented dreamworld and start to speak out themselves about our being the most propagandized people that have ever existed.

posted by GuestZero on Jan 17, 2011 at 03:37:19 pm     #  

I view that problem as a challenge, requiring a constant response.

Then let me recommend a training tool: the shock collar. It may take some time, but the rewards are two-fold. One, the trainee's behavior is altered; Two, the trainer is able to relieve a certain amount of frustration and provide amusement for himself and any onlookers with the touch of a button.

Of course, when he begins to perform correctly you can use sugar cubes. Later on, he'll graduate to $1 bills.

posted by madjack on Jan 17, 2011 at 04:32:21 pm     #  

A collar is fitting accessory for what's obviously an Internet troll, DHR. I'm surprised we don't see him at the ends of one of our bridges.

posted by GuestZero on Jan 19, 2011 at 06:08:55 pm     #  

Yeah... carrying a hand lettered sign:
Kicked Out Of Basement - Please Help!
Will Troll For Food

posted by madjack on Jan 22, 2011 at 03:04:15 pm     #