Toledo Talk

End of life counseling (death panels)

Interesting I guess Nancy was right when they said you have to pass the bill to know whats in it. What they swore wasn't in Obamacare, has been put back in it by presidential decree. End of life counseling where they advise older folks to give up treatment for some pain killers so that more deserving folks can get coverage.

created by Linecrosser on Dec 27, 2010 at 04:46:35 pm     Politics     Comments: 33

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hey this was supposed to be in the politics section.

posted by Linecrosser on Dec 27, 2010 at 04:47:15 pm     #  

Just want to go on record to say that if you believe that is the reason doctors will advise patients about Hospice, I'm seriously disappointed in you, LC. I thought you were smarter than that statement makes you sound. This type of counseling is nothing new. The only new thing is that now Medicare will create a CPT service reporting code and be able to reimburse the docs for spending a certain amount of time talking to the patients and family members about their options. We see them talk about it already, it happens every day, it happened to us with my father in law and it's about time we all face the truth about it. There comes a point in some disease processes where a doctor can do nothing else for a patient but ease their suffering and help them make the transition into the inevitable.

My dad in law had inoperable cancer, it was lodged behind his thoracic aorta and could not be resected without killing him. We had 3 separate opinions on this, one of them in Florida at a cancer center. Hospice helped all of us deal and helped my dad-in law live the last 8 months of his life pain free and functioning. He got oxygen and a lift chair and whatever he needed and he was able to sit up at the dinner table with dignity until 24 hours before he died. THAT is the way I want to go, not hooked up to some machines

posted by nana on Dec 27, 2010 at 05:06:21 pm     #   1 person liked this

(cont) in a hospital, sucking my husband into bankruptcy as I go. Fuck that. Boomers want, and desparately need, to deal with this issue and talking about it and making it easier on everyone is the only way to do that. Quit spreading your fear-mongering misinformation.

posted by nana on Dec 27, 2010 at 05:09:12 pm     #   2 people liked this

Linecrosser, The last sentence of your statement is one of the most ignorant things I have ever heard.

Nanna, Well said!

posted by RockChick on Dec 27, 2010 at 05:14:21 pm     #  

Obviously LC has not read the provision at issue or has any understanding of the issues here. You are a good little misinformed conservative foot soldier; repeating the Beck/Limbaugh rhetoric like a parrot.

Why don't you turn off Sarah Palin's Alaska and ACTUALLY read what section 1233 of the bill said?

posted by brainswell on Dec 27, 2010 at 05:29:17 pm     #  

Linecrosser, I guess we're supposed to settle for pills, so more deserving(illegal immigrants, prison inmates, people with 10 kids)people get "their fair share" of what we've paid into all our lives. What doesn't surprise me isn't that they think they're entitled to it, rather that they think we have no goddamned business complaining about it! F-T-N.

posted by Wulf on Dec 27, 2010 at 06:11:20 pm     #  

Wow - from some right wing nut radio fill in host to ToledoTalk in less than 12 hours - the sheep really are told what to believe.

Ironically - Arizona Republicans are really sentencing people to die over health cost and Republicans stay silent.

http://www.endpoliticsasusual.com/2010/11/arizona-death-panels-state-revokes-funding-for-heart-transplants-opts-to-save-squirrels/

Taking heartless insurance cuts to a whole new level, the Arizona legislature has decided to revoke the funding it authorized for nearly 100 transplant patients. Why did the state, after giving these people hope, decide to literally take their lives away? According to NPR, the state looked at the data and determined that transplant patients donít usually live very long after the transplant so it wasnít worth the investment. Yes, the same state whose representatives filed a lawsuit challenging the new health care law because it requires people to purchase health insurance has decided to cut the health insurance of heart transplant patients.

posted by SensorG on Dec 27, 2010 at 08:49:57 pm     #  

Linecrosser, the bill as passed by congress is law. The President cannot change anything in it by what you call "presidential decree". The President has no power to create or change law.

If it's in there now, it always was.

posted by Grumpy on Dec 27, 2010 at 09:02:41 pm     #  

Sometimes I think that I have heard the dumbest comments on ToledoTalk, but then I hear something dumber. How offering voluntary end of life counseling gets twisted into some paranoid conservative delusion shows just how far off the deep end the extreme right wing has gotten in their jihad against Obama.

Even the Christian Science Monitor, hardly a bastion of liberal media, has pointed out that the authorization for Medicare to pay for these discussions began under Bush and was expanded under Bush.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/2010/1227/Death-panels-controversy-Is-Obama-avoiding-Congress

I swear to God that if Obama repealed the income tax, banned abortion, handed out shotguns to everyone and replaced Martin Luther King Day with Ronald Reagan Day, the Republicans would say that he didn't go far enough. Why he bothers to try and placate those obstructionist assholes is beyond me.

posted by Ace_Face on Dec 27, 2010 at 10:24:27 pm     #   4 people liked this

Wow look at all the obama nazi's,

posted by Linecrosser on Dec 27, 2010 at 10:30:06 pm     #  

Oh and oops, im not commenting on this thread again untill its put into politics, where it should, and you all should not of commented either, if im not mistaken half of you were the ones to complain about needing a politics section.

posted by Linecrosser on Dec 27, 2010 at 10:32:10 pm     #  

Some more sensible talk from FactCheck.org:

http://www.factcheck.org/2009/08/palin-vs-obama-death-panels/

And as they point out, advance planning has received bipartisan support in the past, including John Isakson, (R-Ga.) who said:

"I just had a phone call where someone said Sarah Palin's web site had talked about the House bill having death panels on it where people would be euthanized," Isakson told the Washington Post's Ezra Klein. "How someone could take an end of life directive or a living will as that is nuts. You're putting the authority in the individual rather than the government. I don't know how that got so mixed up."

posted by Ace_Face on Dec 27, 2010 at 10:34:14 pm     #  

Wow look at all the obama nazi's,

Disagreeing with someone or, in this case, correcting factual errors, does not make me a Nazi. The Nazis were mass murdering psychopaths. I have a different point of view from you. The fact that you equate the two is precisely the reason you think that Obama is going to personally supervise pulling the plug on everyone's Granny.

posted by Ace_Face on Dec 27, 2010 at 10:39:35 pm     #  

Obama Nazi????? LC, you are well and truly an idiot.....

posted by RockChick on Dec 27, 2010 at 11:21:26 pm     #  

Didn't realize i could move it to politics myself, Obama nation folks, wow when you pinko folks throw stabs at conservatives its alright but dont seem to like it when we throw them back eh.

posted by Linecrosser on Dec 28, 2010 at 12:34:02 am     #  

if you knew what you were talking about, we wouldn't mind. It's when you spew mindless garbage that you did NO research on that we have to say something. It's the retreat of the poorly-informed to say, 'aw, you can dish it out but you can't take it!'. take the blinders off and face reality, the REAL reality, NOT the one you are being brain-washed with. and the name calling is beneath you, be an adult about it. garbage in, garbage out.

posted by nana on Dec 28, 2010 at 10:56:36 am     #  

Won't the real "death panels" come about when we have to cut Medicare and Medicaid costs? We know this is coming. Unless you have gotten some kind of gold-plated insurance in the private sector (something that only top managers receive) or have been putting a $100,000 away every year for those "golden years" that many of us will experience, we will have to deal with being told that the cost of our medical care is greater than our value. We may have to chose between enriching our medical benefactors and passing on our wealth to our descendants. Either our descendants will get this wealth or theirs (the doctors descendants) will get it.

posted by oldsendbrdy on Dec 29, 2010 at 12:23:48 am     #  

Since all insured care is rationed, then all insured care is under the auspices of a "death panel". All of it.

posted by GuestZero on Dec 29, 2010 at 02:52:14 am     #  

^^^

Exactly. And don't all of you feel better that a for profit company is making those decisions rather than a government worker? I'm sure their bottom line would have no effect on whether they would cover certain procedures, right?

posted by Ace_Face on Dec 29, 2010 at 11:05:57 am     #  

Ace people would be more inclined to trust our Govt. if for once they showed transparency (Obama promised the most transparent run ever) and stepped away bleeding our money through a public union.

It's 6 of one and 1/2 a dozen of the other. Overpaid CEO's with unjust compensation or overpaid afscme employees with unjust compensation. In the private market I know I'm screwed but have some choice in providers but I sure as hell don't want to fight a govt. clerk who has not accountability (can't be fired) and has "no skin in the game" for trying to make sure claims are handled correctly.

Ace have you ever had to fight city hall? Do you want to do it with your liver?

posted by dbw8906 on Dec 29, 2010 at 01:57:46 pm     #  

They should of given end of life counseling to Ted Kennedy and Elizabeth Edwards, think how many poor people that could of gotten an annual check up for the money they spent on them getting another 2 to 12 months of life.

posted by Linecrosser on Dec 29, 2010 at 05:13:33 pm     #  

They should of given end of life counseling to Ted Kennedy and Elizabeth Edwards, think how many poor people that could of gotten an annual check up for the money they spent on them getting another 2 to 12 months of life.

posted by Linecrosser on Dec 29, 2010 at 05:13:34 pm     #  

You make it sound like private insurers are afraid of us consumers taking our business somewhere else, which is laughable. There is virtually no way to choose your health insurance unless you are paying for it yourself. You are at the mercy of whomever your employer thought could provide benefits the cheapest. Don't like your benefits? Get another job. There are lots of those around now, right?

They should of given end of life counseling to Ted Kennedy and Elizabeth Edwards, think how many poor people that could of gotten an annual check up for the money they spent on them getting another 2 to 12 months of life.

Linecrosser, you are so dumb, it hurts.

posted by Ace_Face on Dec 29, 2010 at 06:16:52 pm     #  

From you that is a compliment thanks.

posted by Linecrosser on Dec 29, 2010 at 09:27:19 pm     #  

I think that we can play Ace_Face a bit better on the game that he thinks he's trumping us on.

I say we should enact socialized medicine in the USA, and then outsource the entire thing to whatever government agency that runs Canada's system, since apparently they know how to do it right. So that obviates Ace_Face's concerns.

posted by GuestZero on Dec 30, 2010 at 01:00:14 am     #  

This should perhaps be put to each family for a vote? When Grandad gets to a certain point, i.e., when he starts affecting the balance sheet, pull the plug. If he's still somewhat healthy-pull the trigger. Why wait for a "hospice" situation to develop?

posted by Wulf on Dec 30, 2010 at 04:05:32 pm     #  

Wulf, that is a ridiculously ignorant idea.

What about people who don't care for their families? Would you like to be forced to vote on the issue for a family member you don't know too well?

Many people believe any life is valuable, you are obviously not one of them. "Pull the trigger"? Sheesh... we're talking about people, not sick dogs.

I'm all for letting those who are mentally competent decide if they want to partake in assisted suicide, but when you give someone else the power to end life it usually doesn't end up well for either side. In the case of capital punishment, I think it is warranted for certain people and cases, but I generally don't like the idea of government deciding the fate of individuals.

posted by brainswell on Dec 30, 2010 at 04:44:48 pm     #  

Brainswell says: but when you give someone else the power to end life it usually doesn't end up well for either side

But isn't that what happens with private insurance now? If you can't afford the medication/treatment/hospitalization, you don't get it. And then you die.

posted by Anniecski on Jan 03, 2011 at 02:44:37 pm     #  

Annie,

Yes, that is what happens with private insurance right now. Many people believe that means you didn't work hard enough, wasted your potential, or did something else wrong, and now you are being punished for it.

We should be spending tons of money in preventative medicine to reduce overall consumer and government cost, but that is bad for insurance and drug companies. Don't you all feel bad for those mighty insurance and drug companies, so bad that we have to leave all of our underprivileged in the dark about basic health education and choices?

We are the only developed country in the world that does not provide universal health care. This is because major corporations have convinced a huge portion of the general public that corporate monopolies should be treated like people with individual rights. And the Democrats at the Federal level are almost as guilty as the Republicans as letting them take charge of our political process. Both sides also let all the accumulated capital flow out of this country following the fall of the USSR. The two party system is broken until we eliminate lobbying and corporate contributions and severely limit individual contributions.

posted by brainswell on Jan 03, 2011 at 03:59:17 pm     #  

Linecrosser is trolling you all so hard.

posted by RedGeist on Jan 07, 2011 at 11:17:01 am     #  

So we don't have universal health care, I don't see people flocking to Cuba or Canada to get operations.

posted by Linecrosser on Jan 07, 2011 at 03:14:56 pm     #  

So we don't have universal health care, I don't see people flocking to Cuba or Canada to get operations.

Why would Americans go to Canada or Cuba for health servces? Canada and Cuba only provide healthcare to their own citizens. In America, we provide health services for any person (actually, only people) with either insurance coverage or cash.

posted by Ace_Face on Jan 07, 2011 at 06:48:47 pm     #  

Linecrosser, you need a better education. It's called "medical tourism", and lots of people elect to travel from the US into places like India, where a $40000 US procedure only costs $5000.

People flock over the Canada border in search of cheap drugs. They also use the Internet. If you had any education outside of Rush Limbaugh, you'd know all that.

The reason why nobody flocks to Cuba is that it's probably still illegal to even travel there.

France does health care correctly, and they don't even use socialized medicine. They have universal access, aka the Public Option. You must be insured in France, but the government really acts like a government there, and provides a public option for those who find private options too expensive. And France has the #1 rated system in the world, as measured by the UN for quality of delivery.

Our system absolutely sucks, Linecrosser. It's the most expensive in the world for per-capita expenses, at a long distance above #2, and it only delivers a quality of care that is exceeded by over 35 other nations. That means that 35 other nations in the world deliver better care for less money (France spends 55% of what we do, per-capita). Once people like you stop being so obstinate and finally become educated about the socio-economics of health care, you can become part of the solution to that problem.

posted by GuestZero on Jan 08, 2011 at 03:23:17 am     #   1 person liked this