Protesters in Coumbus over Union Bargaining Bill 3/1/2011

Spent the day in Columbus. Think the numbers reported are low. Announced on stage of 200,000. Many were in the capital building and adjacent buildings. Better organized than last Tuesday's rally. A sound stage allowed a mix of workers, clergy, and union leaders to speak. The attendees were energized. Not much in the way of national news coverage this week. Most in agreement that this will not be the last rally.

Correction, "Announced on stage of 20,000."

They can rally all they like. It is not within the rights of a citizen to force government to accept the demands of a labor union. Collective bargaining already has the power of being collective.

The legal power of labor unions to force government to accept their demands should be revoked. The very concept of a "public union" is hypocritical anyway; after all, on both sides of the negotiation table, there are government employees. So both sides are actually organized against us, the taxpayers.

GZ you don't understand unions protect ALL workers whether you belong or not. Without collective bargaining you'll see a roll back of basic rights for all. Everything you enjoy as a worker was not just given to you for the HELL of it, they were fought for by unions with there warts and all. So all you haters better look at the big picture and realize who is your real friend. If you get benefits thank a union, if you get vacations thank a union, if you have a safe working conditions or a 40 hour a week job thank a union.

In C-Bus right now to attend a hearing for another bill, it's a zoo here.

Without collective bargaining you'll see a roll back of basic rights for all.

Amen, wolfman. One of the first thing Bush did when he got into office was to repeal the ergonomics rule that Clinton had fought for.

According to WebMD: "The rule was the product of a 10-year effort by the Occupational Safety and Health Administration to prevent musculoskeletal disorders at the workplace, such as carpal tunnel syndrome or chronic back pain.

"Republicans said the rule was too costly. They added that the repeal of this legislation would allow for a new rule-making process that would be more responsive to the needs of both big and small businesses."

Yeah, and who is there to fight for that protective legislation if there are no unions?

Keep in mind, also, that less than a century ago, when Europe was still recovering from the First World War, one of the first things Hitler did when he came to power was to abolish the trade unions and imprison their leaders. In one day, he declared a state of emergency and wiped out any notion of democracy in Germany.

Could it happen here? People, it already is.

With all respect Anniecski I am not the servant who need be reminded that my crumbs come from serving thy bread. I am ultimately the one responsible for paying for the services that Union workers are supposed to be providing be it for educating our children or assembling our automobiles or countless other functions.

If I am going to place these responsibilities in Union hands I should expect Exceptional Workmanship, Exceptional Quality and Exceptional Value. Earn it! Show you can do a better job then anyone! Don't point fingers at the competition which is blowing you away in quality and value and say "they are unfair we need regulations..." If your responsibility is to provide education to children quit making excuses. Get the job done! I talk to people within TPD and hear horror stories. From the outside looking in what it appears is that Union Workers never are making themselves more valuable as employees and improving the product but are constantly nitpicking about contracts and how to get more for less!

Thank God the Japanese came into the fold and forced competition in the auto market otherwise I would probably be paying $60,000 for a 2011 Chevy Nova or Ford Pinto that looked like a bread box and got 15 mpg.

I only hope the school system ultimately has choices at it's disposal that forces Unions to compete and prove to all of us that they are the best at what they do, that they are competent and that they are able.

I am not anti-Union. I want quality and value for my money.

I'm not anti union either but I'm sick of the "You would burn in hell if it was for us union workers", you can take that load of BS and fertilize your garden. No union worked a day job for me while I went to school at night, no union rep took my tests or does the 60 hours of continual ed/certification test I have to take every year. If you stopped acting like every American walking down the street owes their life blood to you, you might get a little more respect. You tell us your are the "common man" but then brow beat me with how I should be indebted to your accomplishments.

Companies no longer need America, thats the game changer you keep choosing to ignore. Apple pumps out a bizzilion dollars worth of product China and I'm gonna guess there are several union members protesting right now using them to take snap shots. I know several civil service members who drive forgien cars and I'm gonna guess their TV's, toasters, and the shoes they have on their feet where not union made. Your piss all over your own arguement by clothing yourself head to toe with the benefits of cheap labor but then rail against them. Can you not see the stupidity of your argument? Companies produce products and services not unions. "Union Made" is complete hyperbole as I've never driven down the road next to a V8 UAW.

If it wasn't for a capitalist (I know evil word) somewhere who spent his own money to start a business their would be no place for you to apply your trade. But you know silly little fact like that don't matter. If not for Henry Ford their would be no assembly line and in 1914 Ford Motor Company began paying its workers $5.00 for an eight hour day which was far more than the average wage (30 years before the UAW). Henry Ford is the father of treating workers fairly not Walter Reuther.

Capitalist will do what is needed to perseve their capital (you would do the same thing) and as I said above the world no longer needs America or the American worker to drive their economy. So keep clinging to 1965, scream at the Chinese and the Repulicans, all the while your Korean made dryer should have your made in Thailand "Vote Union" sweat shirt dry by now.

The envious fools among us have their eyes cast to the ground when the real enemy lords over them from above. While you come up with regurgitated decades old talking points you only fool yourselves. The last three decades have seen the results of Reaganomics in action. The haters lament that union workers have defined benefit pensions that most have lost because of corporate lobbying. The 401K is a farce as everyone with an ounce of intelligence has experienced in the Wall Street melt down of 08. The shift in wealth to the top while the vast majority have lost ground over the decades has been breath taking. 42,000 factories closed during the Bush reign of terror. This is the single reason that states are in trouble; NO REVENUE! Remember the fools that told us of the glory of the coming service economy? Snake oil to cover up the whole sale shift to foreign manufacturers while Wall Street pocketed the difference. Unions on the wain are in direct proportion to a loss of the Middle-class standard of living period!

From This Modern World By Tom Tomorrow:
It's A Tea Party World You Just Live In It

The only thing that matters is reducing the deficit!
Government has to tighten its belt -- and cut spending on things we don't like! Conveniently enough!

Obviously, we can't raise taxes on the rich! Let alone rescind any corporate tax breaks!
That would be "punishing succes"! Haven't the wealthy suffered enough already?

So it's a race to the bottom: I am so angry about the public schoolteachers and the unimaginable riches they are paid! Don't get me started on janitors and their lives of luxury!

Because sacrifices must be made! Just not by those who can most readily afford them! What part of "punishing success" do you fail to comprehend?

And if that doesn't entirely make sense to you -- HEY! Look over there!
It's a Muslim Kenyan President without a birth certificate! And is that Sharia Law he's about to impose?

Be afraid! Be very afraid!

Sorry, Wolfman, but that's dead wrong. We have two major classes of laborers in this nation. The first class members are the unionized elite. Their wages, benefits and retirements are obscene and remain within their class. The second class members are the non-unionized private-sector workers. They get no return at all from the wages, benefits and retirements of the unionized elite.

I see the big picture, you fuckhead, and it's called:

“ We're being taxed and fee'd and charged to death to make sure that the laziest fuckers ever get the best wages, benefits and retirements. ”

I'm tired of being taxed, fee'd and otherwise charged to make sure that elites of all kinds get their wine and caviar on a daily basis.

The unions must be destroyed. Their last bastion is the public sector, and they are raping the hypermajority of taxpayers in order to put their own fat asses into unaffordable homes in fucking yuppievilles like Perrysburg and Maumee.

So: Every time I got tossed out of a job, or suffered abuse at the hands of an egomaniacal employer, no union fucker ever went on strike for me, or demonstrated any caring whatsoever. Solidarity goes both ways, moron. It's time you learned this lesson as painfully as it's possible to learn it. Unions didn't care what happened to the rest of us. So they are being destroyed, and they must be, for the real free market to re-emerge.

Anniecski said: “ Yeah, and who is there to fight for that protective legislation if there are no unions? ”

Gee, have you ever heard of the voters?

Oh, wait, wait, now I remember: Liberals hate voting and voters. That's why the Senators in Wisconsin fled the legislature, since they were out-voted.

By implying that voters didn't control our Republic before labor unions appeared, you automatically outed yourself as a Liberal blowhard.

I'll have to remember to call you over to my residence the next time I have a bunch of painted rooms that I'll need to have dried from the hot air you produce in such volume.

Wolfman said: “ The haters lament that union workers have defined benefit pensions that most have lost because of corporate lobbying. ”

No, we hate that defined benefit pensions were constructed to deliver 8% yearly returns, when the long-term rate of economic growth was at most 3% yearly.

Math isn't your strong point, is it?

GZ said "The unions must be destroyed. Their last bastion is the public sector, and they are raping the hypermajority of taxpayers in order to put their own fat asses into unaffordable homes in fucking yuppievilles like Perrysburg and Maumee."

Yeah, those fat cat teachers with their solid gold rocket cars and ivory back scratchers. It seems to me that the private sector workers won't be happy until public sector workers are as bad off as private sector workers. The problem isn't that public sector workers make too much, it's that private sector wages have been stagnant for the last 30 years. Taxes have been lowered, unions have gotten weaker, free trade agreements have been signed and yet wages still go down. The free market has spoken with regard to the private middle class and what it has said is "you're screwed."

GZ this is for you!
Fair Labor Standards Act

The Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) was enacted during the Great Depression at a time when the unemployment rate was 19 percent. It was intended to promote economic recovery and is credited with helping to improve the nation’s economy by providing workers with greater buying power. The FLSA establishes the 40-hour work week and requires employers to pay time-and-a-half premium pay for work performed in excess of 40 hours a week. It also provides for a federal minimum hourly wage to assure that people who work at jobs are not forced to live in poverty. The FLSA is intended to set a national floor for wages and hours, above which states may provide additional protections or a higher minimum wage.

When the republicans gained control of Congress in the mid 1990’s, they launched a full-scale attack on the FLSA on behalf of their corporate allies who characterized the FLSA as outmoded and no longer necessary. Under the Bush administration the attacks were stepped up and, in 2004, the Bush administration took away overtime protection from millions of workers through regulatory changes at the U.S. Department of Labor. Moreover, Congress failed to increase the minimum wage for a full decade, adding countless American families to the poverty rolls and contributing to the enormous income inequality of recent years.
Minimum Wage Increase

When the Democrats gained majorities in the House and Senate in January, 2007, legislation to increase the minimum wage by $2.10 an hour passed the democratic-led House of Representatives in the "first 100 hours." It took longer to get the minimum wage increase passed in the Senate because republican senators held the minimum wage increase hostage to huge corporate tax cuts.

The minimum wage increase finally was enacted and signed into law in May, 2007, and the last of its three scheduled increases went into effect in July, 2009, when the minimum wage rose to $7.25 an hour. Although this was a significant increase that benefited about 12 million workers, the minimum wage will need another boost in order to help lift low-wage workers out of poverty.

For this reason, the UAW and other unions are urging our allies in Congress to introduce a new minimum wage bill to increase the wage floor and to index the minimum wage so that it will increase automatically rather than requiring congressional action.

Contrary to misinformation spread by opponents of the minimum wage, a solid body of research has proved that no job loss results from reasonable minimum wage increases. In fact, a study of the impact of state minimum wage increases showed that in states with minimum wage rates higher than the federal level, small business employment and overall employment grew faster than in states where the federal rate was in place.

The purchasing power of the minimum wage has fallen over time. If the federal minimum wage in 1968 ($1.60 an hour) had kept pace with inflation, it would be approximately $9.90 an hour today. The UAW believes the federal minimum wage needs to be raised to the level Congress intended when the FLSA was enacted, one that will lift working families out of poverty and help reverse the income inequality in our country. We support indexing the wage to eliminate the need for protracted legislative battles in the future. An increase in the minimum wage is both humane and good for the economy. It would help raise the standard of living of millions of working people. At the same time, it would provide the economy with a needed boost, by increasing the purchasing power of millions of American workers.

During the second session of the 111th Congress, the UAW and other unions will urge Congress to pass new legislation to increase, and to index, the minimum wage. We will insist that Congress pass a "clean" minimum wage bill without any extraneous proposals that would take away FLSA protections from some workers or provide additional tax cuts for businesses.
Action

* Urge representatives and senators to cosponsor, and to support, new legislation to increase the minimum wage to an adequate level and to index it in order to eliminate the need for Congress to periodically raise it.
* Tell Congress to reject proposals that would tie the minimum wage increase for some workers to FLSA takeaways for other workers or to proposals to give more business tax cuts.

Eligibility for Overtime

The "white collar" regulations issued during the Bush administration removed millions of workers from the wage and hour protections of the FLSA. One way this was accomplished was by setting the ceiling for automatic overtime eligibility at an unrealistically low annual salary level of $27,500. This means that most "white collar" workers with a salary of $27,500, or more, a year are not automatically entitled to overtime pay. Instead, they are subject to a series of regulatory tests to determine whether they are entitled to overtime pay. As a result, many of these "white collar" workers wind up being considered ineligible for overtime pay.

The UAW believes that no worker whose annual salary is less than $45,000 should be denied time-and-a-half for overtime, regardless of his or her education, job title or duties. This is the ceiling that would have been set under the pre-2004 overtime rules, adjusted for inflation. Accordingly, in the coming session of Congress we will advocate for legislation to increase the ceiling for the FLSA’s automatic overtime eligibility and to index this ceiling to keep pace with inflation.

Wolfman writes:

"The 401K is a farce as everyone with an ounce of intelligence has experienced in the Wall Street melt down of 08."

Am I to gather from your comments that ownership of companies is a farce? I am assuming your comment is directed to the equity portions in a 401k portfolio. These equity positions simmered down are basically "small stakes of ownership in companies."

So let me get this straight... this is for suckers?

Business ownership and investment is for suckers? If the economy turns around where will all the jobs come from Wolf? If people are not investing in businesses they feel will succeed where will the jobs come from? If entrepreneurs do not take the risks that they do because they have drive, initiative and ideas where will those new companies come from? Oh, yeah... I forgot... Obama's trains that will cost billions and run empty and increase deficits.

I mean... if YOUR not willing to risk YOUR hard earned savings in ownership of companies and consider that a farce who should? No business no jobs.

For the record I've done very well in my 401k. Don't panic, stay the course. If possible try to invest more money during down cycles. Stay diversified and invest within your risk tolerance. Oh yeah when you hear your neighbors complain about the price of gas - Double down on Exxon! Profit... sweet, sweet profit! Risk and return... Capitalism... God Bless the USA! <Sparklers and firecrackers please>

The purchasing power of the minimum wage has fallen over time. If the federal minimum wage in 1968 ($1.60 an hour) had kept pace with inflation, it would be approximately $9.90 an hour today. - Wolfart

Wolfie why don't we just pay everyone 25 dollars an hour cause by your logic everything would be "ok" then right? So I guess you would be happy that a bag of oranges would cost 39.99? Cause you know that gentlemen picking oranges needs a fully backed company pension, fully paid employer health care plan, and 25.00 dollars an hour to snag them off the tree. Cause you know Tropicana is just rolling in the loot, I'm sure they have enough money in the pockets of those evil COEs to cover all the cost without passing it along to their customers.

Must be nice to live in fantasy land. Power to people!

Oh yeah and the Postal Service is fully self supporting... fail.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_POSTAL_FINANCES?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2011-03-02-16-32-28

GZ Says Every time I got tossed out of a job, or suffered abuse at the hands of an egomaniacal employer, no union fucker ever went on strike for me, or demonstrated any caring whatsoever. Solidarity goes both ways

If you were IN the union, dumbass, they would have worked to make sure you were within your rights before you got tossed. And fought to get you your job back, with back pay, if you were treated unfairly.

Cause you know that gentlemen picking oranges needs a fully backed company pension, fully paid employer health care plan, and 25.00 dollars an hour to snag them off the tree.

Actually, he does.

As it is, farm workers are often subject to third world living conditions here in the United States, treated as little more than slaves by the growers. And the people who try to organize them -- so that they can be recognized as a union and bargain for things like having toilet facilities available and decent wages and against laws that encourage child labor -- put their lives on the line.

Years ago, the Farm Labor Organizing Committee worked for and won better working conditions for farm workers who picked tomatoes right here in Northwest Ohio, providing those workers with a little more in their pocket and a measure of dignity on the job.

And you know what? You can still get a can of tomatoes for less than a buck.

dbw8906 go do yourself a favor a rent Inside Job http://video.tvguide.com/Inside+Job/Inside+Job/10127690?autoplay=true you'll soon realize the risk involved trusting the stock market. During the 1980s Ronald Reagan prosecuted 1000 bankers for the S&L banking crisis. Since 2008 housing/stock market meltdown no one has been jailed for the biggest crime since the Great Depression. Here's the trailer:

Wolfie please show me where I mentioned anything about the stock market? Once again you ignore the conversation and point to a documentaries and youtube videos from left wing groups clearly funded by a left wing director as facts, which they are not. All of you shoot down Foxnews.com links because of a perceived bias but wallow around in a Micheal Moore film and left funded garbage.

I agree that banking rules need to be adjusted, and I believe the derivative process should be illegal once again but I've never rallied for "the bankers". But remember Democrats where behind the Community Reinvestment Act (affordable housing) that caused this whole mess by lobbying for people with 500 credit scores to get no money down loans. You also forget this act was pumped full again by the Clinton admin and that Barney Frank and Chris Dodd set atop the banking committee before, during, and after the crash. I just don't understand how you can pin this on GWB or The Evil Republican Robber Barons.

You still can't answer the 39.99 bag of oranges question. Annie do you even understand how to compute Cost of Goods sold? If Tropicana has to raise the orange picker, the grounds keepers, truck drivers, and all the other people that go into putting those oranges in a bag to a "union wage" or get "teacher perks" how do you not expect the cost to go up dramatically. So let just raise everyone's wage to 25 dollars an hour, you do understand that the cost of goods sold is going to raise accordingly. Your paycheck will be much bigger on Friday but your grocery bill is going to explode, there is no net win in raising wages "just because".

All of you refuse to accept the fact the world no longer needs American Union Labor. You think Russia is going to to pay for over priced goods when they can get the same thing much cheaper from India/China/Mexico? We can no longer hold the world hostage to your demands. Scream at CEO's and bankers all you want, you are an antiquated business model. Sadly the world has moved on, I wish it wasn't so. I wish everyone could work a job that allowed them to own a home, a lake house, 2 jet skis, and vacation in Disney every year. I also wish the Lions would win the Superbowl but unfortunately I must live in reality.

Oh Wolfie this is why there have not been any banker convictions as of late...

BARACK OBAMA (D)
Top Contributors

University of California $1,591,395
Goldman Sachs $994,795
Harvard University $854,747
Microsoft Corp $833,617
Google Inc $803,436
Citigroup Inc $701,290
JPMorgan Chase & Co $695,132
Time Warner $590,084
Sidley Austin LLP $588,598
Stanford University $586,557
National Amusements Inc $551,683
UBS AG $543,219
Wilmerhale Llp $542,618
Skadden, Arps et al $530,839
IBM Corp $528,822
Columbia University $528,302
Morgan Stanley $514,881
General Electric $499,130
US Government $494,820
Latham & Watkins $493,83

BO will give you the white wash of getting those "evil bankers" while we counts the money they send him. He is a snake oil salesman and a BS artist like this country has never seen and you are dumb enough to believe him.

http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/contrib.php?cycle=2008&cid=n00009638

Why do union hacks bring up Wall Street and billionaires whenever someone speaks in favor of trimming public sector unions?

In their eyes, does a person that doesn't support public sector employees robbing a state's treasury always have to support Wall Street and billionaires?

I don't think so...this is more about common sense. These contracts they have are unsustainable. Either reduce them now, or risk losing them altogether when the free market further downgrades municipal bonds and the US dollar.

Many common working people, earning less than the average public sector employee, while likely more productive, are speaking in favor of trimming the public workforce along with the pay and benefits.

Kick and fuss all you want, but the scam public sector employees have been enjoying for decades is in it's final innings.

In Toledo, next November we have the opportunity to right the ship via failing the 3/4% income tax renewal.

People should further examine what type of deal police officers across the state are receiving via the Ohio DROP program. Another disgusting double-dip program that allows them to retire but remain on the job and be paid twice.

All on the backs of other working Ohioans. NOT on the backs of Wall Street and certainly not on the backs of billionaires. How can anyone, not directly being paid from the program, support that type of scam.

It also aids in keeping unemployment higher than it should be. If an officer wants to retire, then do so. They are screwing another person that should have the opportunity to perform that job. Union hacks proclaim to support regular folks, but support scams like the DROP program that keep UE higher than it should be.

Thus, even though it appears Ohio and certain states are going too far after unions, if it helps finally flush things like double-dipping, pension pick-ups, automatic annual raises, etc, I am left to plug my nose and support the state's current actions.

Financial Crisis Inquiry Commission (FCIC)
Conclusions

How did it come to pass that in 2008 our nation was forced to choose between two stark and painful alternatives — either risk the collapse of our financial system and economy, or commit trillions of taxpayer dollars to rescue major corporations and our financial markets, as millions of Americans still lost their jobs, their savings, and their homes?

The Commission concluded that this crisis was avoidable. It found widespread failures in financial regulation; dramatic breakdowns in corporate governance; excessive borrowing and risk-taking by households and Wall Street; policy makers who were ill prepared for the crisis; and systemic breaches in accountability and ethics at all levels. Here we present what we found so readers can reach their own conclusions, even as the comprehensive historical record of this crisis continues to be written.
http://www.fcic.gov/report/conclusions

The Financial Crisis Inquiry Commission was created to "examine the causes, domestic and global, of the current financial and economic crisis in the United States." The Commission was established as part of the Fraud Enforcement and Recovery Act (Public Law 111-21) passed by Congress and signed by the President in May 2009. This independent, 10-member panel was composed of private citizens with experience in areas such as housing, economics, finance, market regulation, banking and consumer protection. Six members of the Commission were appointed by the Democratic leadership of Congress and four by the Republican leadership. The Commission’s statutory instructions set out 22 specific topics for inquiry and called for the examination of the collapse of major financial institutions that failed or would have failed if not for exceptional assistance from the government. These include:

* fraud and abuse in the financial sector, including fraud and abuse toward consumers in the mortgage sector;
* Federal and State financial regulators, including the extent to which they enforced, or failed to enforce statutory, regulatory, or supervisory requirements;
* the global imbalance of savings, international capital flows, and fiscal imbalances of various governments;
* monetary policy and the availability and terms of credit;
* accounting practices, including, mark-to-market and fair value rules, and treatment of off-balance sheet vehicles;
* tax treatment of financial products and investments;
* capital requirements and regulations on leverage and liquidity, including the capital structures of regulated and non-regulated financial entities;
* credit rating agencies in the financial system, including, reliance on credit ratings by financial institutions and Federal financial regulators, the use of credit ratings in financial regulation, and the use of credit ratings in the securitization markets;
* lending practices and securitization, including the originate-to-distribute model for extending credit and transferring risk;
* affiliations between insured depository institutions and securities, insurance, and other types of nonbanking companies;
* the concept that certain institutions are 'too-big-to-fail' and its impact on market expectations;
* corporate governance, including the impact of company conversions from partnerships to corporations;
* compensation structures;
* changes in compensation for employees of financial companies, as compared to compensation for others with similar skill sets in the labor market;
* the legal and regulatory structure of the United States housing market;
* derivatives and unregulated financial products and practices, including credit default swaps;
* short-selling;
* financial institution reliance on numerical models, including risk models and credit ratings;
* the legal and regulatory structure governing financial institutions, including the extent to which the structure creates the opportunity for financial institutions to engage in regulatory arbitrage;
* the legal and regulatory structure governing investor and mortgagor protection;
* financial institutions and government-sponsored enterprises; and
* the quality of due diligence undertaken by financial institutions;

On January 27, 2011 the Commission delivered its report to the President, Congress and the American people. The operations of the Commission will conclude on February 13, 2011.

As of this writing no one has been prosecuted!

6th it's because they believe they deserve to dig into someone else's pockets to keep their schemes running, since the have tapped the middle class dry (see TPS levy failure) they turned their aim to anyone who has built a business and been successful w/o bowing to their rules as Evil Robber Barons. You know cause when they spend through all the money they have they can't face reality, they have to create boogy men with deep pockets, classic victim mentality. Blame everyone else for your problems.

Why do union hacks bring up Wall Street and billionaires whenever someone speaks in favor of trimming public sector unions?

Perhaps it is because Kasich was a Wall Street hack before deciding to take away workers' rights?

And no one's talking about "trimming" unions. The unions have already agreed to concessions. This is just the Rethuglicans way of eliminating their opposition.

Heil, Kasich!

^^Civility. On display again. "Rethuglicans". "Heil Kasich". Real intellectual stuff.

Did any of you on the left actually understand the president's call for civility after AZ? Or was that just another talking point?

Lead by example some time.

Civility definition,
Liberal - What Republicans and anyone who oppose us must me when talking to or about us.
Conservative - not beating the crap out of the annoying Liberal.

me = be

Providence, RI just fired ALL teachers. Wow

Link here

In the eyes of public sector union folks and their supporters, things such as PAY FREEZES are concessions.

It's time to send their pay and benefits through a meat grinder.

Oldhometown, were you expecting anything different from Annie?

6th Floor your first sentence sums up the bewilderment I've felt for years whenever I've heard about concessions. It's time to rip up the old script and write a fresh one.

Despite the rhetoric and the protests I have a tinge of optimism. Root issues are entering the public discussion. Also, you can tell when you really are hitting the right issues when the bees start to swarm. The more protest I hear about the more confident I am that the present leadership are really hitting core issues.

Wolfman I understand 100% why you would Republicans as the enemy...

Unions Nationally have put a lot of chips on Blue and when you're all in on one side the other side is gaining power and popularity it's only natural to vilify them as the enemy. Don't worry you'll find out were not the Red Menace they tell you about at the rallies.

http://dailycaller.com/2011/02/19/unions-fuel-democratic-party-financially/

As you can see none of the liberal posters on this board can answer the 39.99 bag of oranges question or the answered the inability for Union costed goods to compete in a world market. The only come back is "evil bankers and GWB ate my baby!".

It never has been about helping the middle class, it's about getting mine at all cost.

It never has been about helping the middle class, it's about getting mine at all cost.

A sentiment that is nicely encapsulated in this story:

Teachers' union chief at TPS will step down--Francine Lawrence announces end of June retirement

...which contains this nugget...

"...she wants to begin collecting her State Teachers Retirement System pension before the cost of living adjustment is reduced in July."

I have sympathy that her husband is 79 and she wants to spend time with him, but this strikes me as time to get out before the union and she have (a) limited power and (b) her pension COLA is reduced.

She's getting hers. What kind of pension will she get with her 6-figure salary?

she'll get 60% of that plus all she can steal.

What unions call "concessions" don't touch on the real problem: Unions are now an unaffordable labor force for public and private organizations.

Workers do not have the natural right to force the taxpayer to pay for their big wages, benefits and truly outrageous retirement programs. What sort of fucking moron nation allows a person to retire with a fat paycheck after only 20 years of work? It's a moral and fiscal obscenity, and it's thankfully coming to an end.

All the things that people like Annie are saying are just delaying the inevitable. The average worker must downsize his lifestyle. No more new cars and houses and other such crap for the working classes. Those who resist this inarguable truth are just going to collapse their lives under unpayable debts.

If you think that bankruptcies and foreclosures are a problem now, just wait for the next generation to set new records.

So now we are in a race to the bottom, where the American working class is competing with Mexican and Chinese workers who survive on just a portion of what American workers require? Forget new cars and nice houses, Americans simply cannot afford to make 75 cents an hour.

Barfly, with nearly 40 years of service, she will be paid during retirement closer to 100% than 60% of her salary.

If most people knew what teachers were being paid in retirement, it would be even more difficult for levies to pass.

Many of them stick around past 30 years now since 2000-1 when they added another layer of pension increases. I believe they added 2.8% per year for years 31-35 about 10 years ago.

30 years = 66%
35 years = 90%

Something exists for 39 + years that's 100%, but I don't recall and it may be only for administrators. Regardless, these pensions are not sustainable. Thus, either they take reductions now, or the younger teachers still working will receive drastically reduced amounts.

Let us not overlook that surely Fran Lawrence will be cashing in a full 260 day limit for accumulated sick leave.

Being that a teacher's "year" is either 180 or 190 work days, that's another 150k + theft (paid @ 97k per year) she'll have for golf lessons with her husband.

Robbery in any other setting, but at public service, and especially tps, it's called a contract.

Congratulations Fran, you and your husband have done more than your share fucking over Toledoans for nearly 50 years. Meanwhile, during your watch Toledo schools have fallen apart. A job well done and since your daughter is rumored as being groomed, the hits will just keep on coming.

Way to go as well Fran, jumping overboard while your members finally get the shaving they deserve.

Ace_Face, it's economic reality. Offshoring work to lower-paid foreigners is fully within the right of capitalists. And it drives down wages therefore.

How many times must I use the term "reality" before you recognize it?

Are you going to try to make moving capital offshore illegal? Maybe pass a law that forces people to buy new cars when they get a job? Tell me what's going on in your brain, since your outrage doesn't seem to lead anywhere sensible.

Remember, the world is being setup to have producers and consumers. That's unsustainable, since the consumers won't earn incomes to afford consumption. More of that "reality" shit from me, again.

BGSU students, faculty stand up for rights of public workers

300 "protesters" out of a campus population of 24,000-26,000 warrants news coverage? The headline makes it look like the whole school is protesting, when in reality it was, maybe, 1%. Great reporting again, Toledo Blade!

I also really enjoyed reading that an "unemployed mother of 3" found time in her busy schedule to drive down from Toledo and "protest". And that grad students found the time to "protest".

Meanwhile, in the epicenter of the "protests" (Story from the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinal):

In 2011, the average annual compensation for a teacher in the Milwaukee Public Schools system will exceed $100,000.

Peggy Noonan wrote a great column yesterday describing why public-employee unions are neither gaining sympathy or holding their power:

"But with the public employee unions...[w]hen union leaders negotiate with a politician, they’re negotiating with someone they can hire and fire. Public unions have numbers and money, and politicians need both. And politicians fear strikes because the public hates them. When governors negotiate with unions, it’s not collective bargaining, it’s more like collusion. Someone said last week the taxpayers aren’t at the table. The taxpayers aren’t even in the room. As for unions looking out for the little guy, that’s not how it’s looking right now. Right now the little guy is the public school pupil whose daily rounds take him from a neglectful family to an indifferent teacher who can’t be removed. The little guy is the beleaguered administrator whose attempts at improvement are thwarted by unions. The little guy is the private-sector worker who doesn’t have a good health-care plan, who barely has a pension, who lacks job security, and who is paying everyone else’s bills.

GZ said Offshoring work to lower-paid foreigners is fully within the right of capitalists. And it drives down wages therefore.

So we should just get ready for the day when America is a third world country? Don't try to do anything about it? Continue to watch as jobs pour out of the country? Learn to live an ascetic lifestyle like you apparently do?

Ace, what do you intend to do about it? Repeal private property rights?

I'm honestly curious and I must express my respect for your point of view. But I don't know where you're going with this. What do you want to have happen?

And when your desires turn out to be sprinkled with fairy dust and covered in spun moonbeams, what real plan do you have in mind?

We can't remain the most expensive workforce in the world, if there aren't enough buyers for our pricey labors. Shall we send carrier groups to Europe and threaten them to buy our products and services at gun-point?

"The little guy is the private-sector worker who doesn’t have a good health-care plan, who barely has a pension, who lacks job security, and who is paying everyone else’s bills."

Well quoted, OHT. The union scum don't want people to realize that the taxpayers are the real victims here.

Something that annoys me is these public sector union thieves are asking private sector working union or non-union to join their hands in protest.

Where were all these teachers and especially university instructors while 42k factories closed in the US since 2001? Did they support private sector workers during the dismantling of the US manufacturing base? Hell no they didn't. They were looking down their noses at the UAW, truck drivers, construction, etc.

Here's a request for anyone working for a living in the private sector. Before you defend overpaid public sector employees, drive through any public school or university parking lot and tell me what you see. If you are or ever have been a UAW employee and support public sector unions, you are a complete fool.

I have a business degree from UT. I can't count the number of times professors proclaimed dirty jobs such as manufacturing were outdated and/or cost ineffective currently to be performed here in the US. Repeatedly, supply and demand were mentioned regarding wages. NAFTA was the greatest plan for America and American workers since Henry Ford.

Now that most of those jobs have moved offshore, who and what is left to pay for their lofty salaries and ridiculous benefit packages?

How about that supply and demand analysis for university employees' pay negotiations nowadays? Double-digit UE = much lower pay, correct?

Ultimately, these public sector unions are robbing what little wealth remains here. It doesn't matter what the bankers robbed. Unions and their political allies (mostly democrats) will always point at "the rich" to deflect from what they are doing.

Therefore, the more of them we can remove from the payroll and/or pay them less in wages and benefits, the better off the rest of us will be.

Maybe some of the 300 bgsu students that actually showed how dumb they are while wasting their time protesting, are receiving public aid to attend college.

Surely many of them or their parents are paying or borrowing the money to attend. Thus, they should be informed, that the lofty pay and benefits being paid to their instructors and other staff at bgsu are much of the reason the tuition costs have soared.

""The little guy is the private-sector worker who doesn’t have a good health-care plan, who barely has a pension, who lacks job security, and who is paying everyone else’s bills.""

Because the stupid bastard let the corporate masters take everything away from him by voting Republican so the corporate masters got everything deregulated and their monopolistic mergers approved in order to control more of the market with fewer peon employees while looking out for the shareholders (which are the corporate masters and executives and banks/funds that hold the majority of shares, especially with all the stock options handed over to the executives).

Think about how it goes at these places.

• Fire the janitors and custodians and outsource cleaning and maintenance... put this on a contracted work order system so when the toilets plug up for the average worker, it takes a week for resolution, but the executives' head is fixed immediately and cleaned twice a day.

• Fire the call center workers and ship the jobs to India, so we don't have all those employees being paid and receiving benefits from the company either. And we won't need so many because our customers won't be calling so much after the first few months because they'll get some person with an accent they can't understand and who can't deal with any deviation from a set script.

• Outsource your IT as well, because hey, IT is expensive and it's not like you really need someone who knows all the programs your company uses and where and how the IT infrastructure is. Just hire the Geek Squad for Corporate America.

Then since you can show big cuts and more profits as an executive, grant yourself more stock options and a huge bonus while you eviscerate the middle class.

In case of economic recession, cut your company's 401(k) contribution and company-provided phones and expense reimbursements and so on so you can continue to post profits. Then take another bonus.

Get Fox News and talk radio to rail on about how unions are EVIL COMMIE PINKO MUSLIN TERRIST SOCIALIST organizations because union members have good benefits and they should have them all taken away because you don't have any of that now, nor do you have job security, nor have you seen a raise in years, etc. etc. etc. But never ever EVER mention the disparity in wealth.

http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/02/income-inequality-in-america-chart-graph

http://www.businessinsider.com/dear-middle-class-americans-most-of-you-are-debt-serfs-with-zero-assets-2010-10

That's right, you dumb Teapublican Koch-sucking fuckers. The top 20% have >80% of the wealth in America, AND YOU THINK THEY HAVE JUST BETWEEN 50% AND 60%. Oh, and the next 20% which you think have the next 20% of wealth have maybe 10%.

Redistribution of wealth from millionaire executives and Wall Street fat cats to the middle class = commie pinko socialism and Obama is the Muslim Satan for even daring to say something like "redistribution of wealth". But when a pile of Teapublicans bought by the Kochs start pushing union-busting, redistributing wealth is A-OK, because taking all that away from middle-class Americans and calling it a "spending cut" so they don't have to "raise taxes" totally slips under the mentally deficient reasoning of you stupid fucks who cannot fucking look up the disparity of income between yourselves and upper management, or look past your own (empty) wallets, because you all drank the Trickle-Down Economics Kool-Aid. And because you didn't ask where it came from or why the only flavor was "yellow" you didn't realize the source of Trickle-Down Kool-Aid is corporate America and the Teapublicans pissing on you.

AC, most of us are aware of the wealth distribution. The next fucking time you want a school levy passed or want to raise tuition to pay for another "step increase", get it from "the rich" you despise.

And so the same with the Toledo 3/4% income tax used for pension pick-ups for overpaid cops and fire.

Oh, how dare we forget, they "put their lives on the line" every single minute they wear a uniform. Yet another over-used and over-hyped battle cry by union hacks.

Listening to the public sector union hacks, it's as if there isn't another job in the entire world besides police and fire that people put themselves at risk of injury and/or death.

Oh hey 6-feet-under, funny all these attacks on teacher unions and how you drank that Kool-Aid. It's so totally not like the well-meaning Teapublicans trying to break teacher unions are out to gut education so they can make more stupid people like yourself. I mean, IT'S NOT LIKE STATES WITHOUT TEACHERS UNIONS DON'T RANK AT OR NEAR THE BOTTOM OF EDUCATIONAL PERFORMANCE AND GRADUATION RATES!

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/answer-sheet/guest-bloggers/how-states-with-no-teacher-uni.html

Oh hey how about that? The states without teachers unions are FULL OF FAIL. So yes, let's bust the teacher unions so we can graduate herds of little TeaOP voting morons... and while we're at it, let's push "intelligent design" in place of science again!

Another crying towel line from teachers is "oh but we poor teachers have to take classes to remain certified and pay for it ourselves".

They cry about that as if they are the only employees in the entire world that have had to take continuing ed courses.

Since they are teachers, shouldn't they enjoy taking classes and furthering their lifelong educational experiences?

"Union costed goods to compete in a world market" - If I'm not mistaken, i believe wages and benefits for UAW automobiles only cover 10% of the cost of building a car.

One of the things that really piss me the fu*k off is people love bashing the unions, but i haven't heard Mr Bell say he and the non-union employees of the city are going to take a 10% pay cut across the board. What kind of benefits do they get? What are their pension like? Health care? I'd LOVE to know their benefit package. All people are bitching about are the unions. Like i said what about every other city employee?

The next fucking time you want a school levy passed or want to raise tuition to pay for another "step increase", get it from "the rich" you despise.

So, 6th, you're suggesting we raise taxes on the rich? Won't they take away your Tea Party card for that??

anonymouscoward said: “ Fire the janitors and custodians and outsource cleaning and maintenance... put this on a contracted work order system so when the toilets plug up for the average worker, it takes a week for resolution, but the executives' head is fixed immediately and cleaned twice a day. ”

Obviously you don't know what you're talking about.

Companies don't outsource today and just call it quits as money saved. Outsourcing of such functions has been going on for decades. As such, the initial savings from the outsourcing became insufficient. So outsourcing competition arose.

Hence, the standards of work for an outsourced company are likely to be high, since it's the client company's way of trying to screw the supply company in order to get even more savings.

So if your toilet is backed up, the outsourced company who got the contract to fix it, had better get that thing unplugged and cleaned up in a 2 to 4-hr window, or it gets "fined" per the outsource contract. It has a $10/hr dispatcher who had better get that call out in a 15-minute window, or she will be fired. The $14/hr worker in the truck had better respond to the dispatcher via phone, or he too will be fired. And he'd better get that toilet taken care of, within the specified window, or again he'll be fired.

This is how it always should have been, AC: Perform or be fired. You're totally blind to what Liberalism has done to your brain. And what was done to your brain was a terrible thing; you lost all confidence in the efficiencies and performance of a real free market.

Annie, actually I think a more viable solution is to reduce public sector pay and benefits at least 30%. Hopefully in a few years, that level will be reached.

thought this was interesting....

http://reason.com/archives/2011/03/08/the-state-pension-time-bomb

Posal while I agree pensions are in trouble. I don't believe they were out of line just ten year ago. The loss of American manufacturing and the criminal Banksters on Wall Street ruined the Middle class life for all Americans. This will probably repeat in the near future because no one is held accountable. The S&L housing debacle of the 1980s was at least prosecuted by Ronald Reagan. He jailed 2000 Banksters! This served as a deterrent for our white collar criminal class. Today no one has gone to jail for the 2008 meltdown.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vS0hj4kiqsA

"The loss of American manufacturing" - What do you propose we bomb China? How about nuke Thailand? Ohh maybe we can poison the water in Taiwan!

We where foolish enough to fund the "global economy" thinking that the world would be a better place and they would have our back when times got tough. Shame on us.

Hate on Repubs and those evil rich people all you want because no amount of taxing or taking for them is going to stop the rise of cheap manufacturing around the world.

No! Not Thailand! Bangkok is a nice place... if you want to drop a few bombs on a county, might I suggest North Korea. The dictator (I can't remember his name) already hates the US, so there's really no loss. Another good target might be Iran, but not the oil fields. Just the capital. There's also a few places in Africa that no one except PETA cares much about. Go bomb one of them if you want. Like Togo, most of which is desert anyway.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/03/09/wisconsin-senate-leader-admits-union-busting-bill-is-about-defeating-obama/

OOPS! You weren't supposed to say that, you Teabagger asshole!

There it is, folks. This is all a TeaOP-driven plan to eliminate the Democratic Party so the TeaOP can have complete and utter one-party rule. And do you know what history tells us about one-party rule where the unions were busted/made illegal? It's called FASCISM, now all we need is the TeaOP Presidential candidate to have a funny little mustache or something...

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/03/09/wisconsin-senate-strips-state-workers-of-bargaining-rights/

Also, the WI Senate TeaOPers apparently violated the state open meetings law to pass this. Which means of course that they'll conveniently ignore the rule of law to strip people of rights. And since they're the majority, there's no way to impeach the fuckers for violating the law. So, ToledoTalk Teabaggers, since you're the ones carrying signs saying "WE CAME UNARMED - THIS TIME!" and so on, is it time to move past the soap, ballot, and jury boxes? Or doesn't that apply when it's evil commie pinko libruls doing it?

Anonymouscoward - If they really did violate the state open meetings law you have cause to rejoice since that would make the meeting illegitimate and will be swiftly overturned by the courts. Me thinks the Senators who "were at work" used a statute in that law about posting a notice about the meeting which would mean that the Democrat Senators who's "tricky Maneuver" was to go AWOL out of the State were merely outmaneuvered. Sucks to be the guy on the canvass but when you put the gloves on you can't cry when the other guy hits you.

In my heart of hearts I don't think this fight will be over anytime soon though. I'm just glad it's not in my backyard (yet...) But... ultimately... in a Democracy the voters will decide. If the voters in Wisconsin are against this action then eventually this will all be a waste of time. However, if this works and the state and budget actually starts to improve... "8..9...10..." Knockout!

Just like I think the two party system helps keep one side in check (though that is HIGHLY arguable these days) I am not opposed to Union presence, just as long as they provide the best value for the money. If there are alternate resources that provide a better value I will use them and I want my elected officials to have options too rather then be hamstrung or strong armed.

"one-party rule where the unions were busted/made illegal? It's called FASCISM" - AC

Ohhh you mean when one government employee "negotiates" or "collectively bargains" with another government employee that has the power to hire or fire the first person (gee wonder who they are going to side with). While no account taken of the people who actively fund this one sided process. "It's called FASCISM" (love the caps BTW)

Awww dbw got his copy of the TeaOP talking points today. How nice. So what you're saying is that every time a Teapublican is in office and a public employees union contract comes up, the Teapublican automatically rubber stamps EVERYTHING the union wants.

Lol by "TeaOP talking points today" you must mean the sham of an elected governmental employee sweat hearting a vast portion of the voting base with money that doesn't come out of his pocket to further his election chances... than yeah your right.

If lower taxes, right to work laws, non-intrusive govt., and a business friendly environment never works then tell me why Utah is growing at a blockbuster pace? http://www.utahsummit.com/

Oh I forgot Micheal Moore must have forgot to tell you about that.

Different town, same song. Over and over again:

As Toledo Faces Deficit, Municipal Union Wants More Pay

Early Warning Signs of Fascism:

1. Powerful and continuing nationalism

USA! USA! USA!

2. Disdain for human rights

Fuck gays! Fuck immigrants! etc.

3. Identification of enemies/scapegoats

GODDAMN COMMIE PINKO ATHEIST MUSLIM SOCIALIST DEMOCRATS! THEY AND THE LIBRUL ELITE UNIONISTAS AND THE QUEERS ARE THE CAUSE OF EVERYTHING THAT'S WRONG WITH AMERICA!

4. Supremacy of the military

(Points to wars in Afghanistan and Iraq and the bomb bomb bomb Iran crowd)

5. Controlled mass media

Fox News, 90% of talk radio, etc. plus Kasich's latest attempt at bannination of the media.

6. Obsession with national security

PATRIOT Act, TSA, borders, focus on immigration...

7. Religion and government are intertwined

IN GOD WE TRUST AND IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT, GTFO YOU ATHEIST COMMIE PINKO LIBRUL! (see all the blue laws on the books as well as DoMA/gay marriage bans)

8. Corporate power is protected

Duh. TAX CUTS FOR THE RICH! NO INCOME TAX ON CORPORATIONS!

9. Labor power is suppressed

SB5. Wisconsin. BUST THOSE CORRUPT OVERPAID LAZY BUMS!

10. Didsdain for intellectuals and the arts

(every single TeaPublican and conservative on this board demonstrates this!)

11. Obsession with crime and punishment

(only when it affects their enemies... if any Teapublican gets in trouble, it's a vast liberal conspiracy to drum up charges!)

12. Rampant cronyism and corruption

Just how much is Kasich paying his advisors again? More than those positions got Strickland! Kinda ironic given that we're facing a DEFICIT... but he can't possibly pay his friends LESS!

13. Fraudulent elections

Diebold.

14. Rampant sexism

All you need to do is look at some of the things out of the mouths of Palin and the other Teapublican darlings like Ann Coulter and Michelle Malkin and Michelle Bachmann. Women who have basically indicated that they WANT other women to be barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen making their men sammiches and fetching them beers.

'1. Powerful and continuing nationalism

USA! USA! USA!" - Heaven forbid anyone be proud of anything. I guess when BO tells Americans to "pitch in" and "sacrifice" your against that too right?

"3. Identification of enemies/scapegoats

GODDAMN COMMIE PINKO ATHEIST MUSLIM SOCIALIST DEMOCRATS! THEY AND THE LIBRUL ELITE UNIONISTAS AND THE QUEERS ARE THE CAUSE OF EVERYTHING THAT'S WRONG WITH AMERICA!" - (BTW STILL LOVE THE CAPS) - So it's ok for you AC to curse and villify people but not Ok for everyone else... I call that FASCISM!

4. Supremacy of the military

(Points to wars in Afghanistan and Iraq and the bomb bomb bomb Iran crowd) - And Obama was the Nobel Peace Winner who was to end all our wars and close prison camps?

6. Obsession with national security

PATRIOT Act, TSA, borders, focus on immigration... - BO was to end the Patriot Ace too remember.

10. Didsdain for intellectuals and the arts

(every single TeaPublican and conservative on this board demonstrates this!) - ROFL my friend, just because I believe their are other pressing matters that deserve our tax dollars or I'm against raising taxes for funding the 3rd flute in the TSO doesn't mean I have a "Didsdain" (btw it's spelled disdain) for the arts.

4. Rampant sexism

All you need to do is look at some of the things out of the mouths of Palin and the other Teapublican darlings like Ann Coulter and Michelle Malkin and Michelle Bachmann. Women who have basically indicated that they WANT other women to be barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen making their men sammiches and fetching them beers. - ROFL I guess all those females have been hijacked by Kasich right? He slipped a mickey into all their coffee this morning.

Man you gotta come up for air because your drowning in your own Kool Aid buddy.

AC has it right, db. Democracy as the founders saw it is DEAD. Geez, they're even trying to repeal child labor laws in Missouri, so that 14-year-olds can work unrestricted hours.

^^So democracy works when your side wins an election (legislative house majorities in '06, plus Obama's historic win in '08); now it's dead because your side lost big (2010)??? And the people that won are doing the things they said they were going to do in the campaign (cut the budget, break the stranglehold of unions, etc.)?

So, if you win in 2012 or 2014, will democracy come back? How will you win an election since "democracy is dead" and Kasich, Scott Walker, John Boenher, and your other boogiemen have apparently been declared dictators for life and are hauling you off to "fascist" internment camps <sarcasm>?

Please get over your hysterical rantings--your posts indicate you are far to intelligent for these idiotic statements. You have a chance to reverse things in another 20 or so months in the legislature and a little more time in the executive branch. Work hard and you may convince people you are correct. You did not convince the majority the last time around. And, as Republicans learned in '06 and '08, elections have consequences.

BTW, "democracy as the founders saw it" died in the 1940's when the Supreme Court set the precedent that the "interstate commerce clause" of the Constitution broadly covered damn near everything the federal government does in direct opposition of the 10th Amendment (go read that amendment--I don't have time to look it up for you). The Founders in no way intended for the feds to have their hands in everything--they saw a limited federal government and state and local governments controlled even more directly by the people as the ideal self-government. This was directly a result of reading history and experiencing what happens when all the power is concentrated in one, over-arching, central monolith (such as in London, Paris, Vienna, etc.). With that Supreme Court decision, their vision for how this nation should operate was severely dimmed.